firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

Well, I can finally afford something other than a pieced together POS engine..and only running 14.90s on the strip stinks

Well not really but you can't take $$ with you when you go so ya know

I have done some searching and reading and am headed down the following path unless someone sees some serious issues

I have a 1pc rms 2 bolt 350 shortblock non roller from a 90 pickup, it appears to be a factory build, no oversize markings etc. has a bit of a rim in the top of the bores so will likely wind up .030 over

I intend to get the sdpc vortec kit for non roller with the rpm air gap. http://www.currymotors.gmmotors.com/...RPMAirGap.aspx

i have seen posts saying it fits from camaro owners, and posts saying it won't, i know the firebird hoodline drops faster, but according to edelbrocks measurements i should be ok, i compared my 2101 performer to the vortec air gap on their site


for a cam, i want some lope but i need fair drivability, but be able to MOVE if i want

many seem to be happy with this comp xe274 getting that job done
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...3&autoview=sku

i have a 600cfm 4160 series holley currently, but if it proves to be small im willing to go up.

and i will be using an ignition box of some sort mainly to get a rev limiter, the car is a t5 and i have had a couple close calls, which on a $100 motor doesnt bother me to much, $2000 motor i dont want to risk it

looking at this summit kit, it gets me a new distributor and the box for $230
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...107+4294839065

a couple questions,
can i do 10 to 1 compression on 89 octane safely?

what type pistons should i be looking at?

i plan to have a small town shop that builds the circle track motors around here do the machine work and assemble the bottom end at least. i talked a little with him on the phone and he heavily suggests balancing..

how do you guys feel about it?

i hope you read this far and i thank you, i know there are a lot of these posts made, but i had to ask.

aweTastic

can i do 10 to 1 compression on 89 octane safely?
Yes because you can adjust your timing to get rid of knock but honestly if it ends up needing it I would just spend the extra 10 cents a gallon itll be worth it =D

what type pistons should i be looking at?
With those vortec heads you should get pretty high compression so standard dish pistons will be fine and if you dont plan on adding nos or using it for extreme racing conditions hypereutic is good but forged is always nice

i plan to have a small town shop that builds the circle track motors around here do the machine work and assemble the bottom end at least. i talked a little with him on the phone and he heavily suggests balancing..

how do you guys feel about it?
Most components come pre balanced but as a safety and if you get some unbalanced parts I would get it done

i hope you read this far and i thank you, i know there are a lot of these posts made, but i had to ask.
I remember when I was asking the same questions =P

Hope this helps

Atilla the Fun

Seems all I need to address is the balancing and the carb, though I would go with a different cam. It's also from COMP, Also an XE, but l;isted as an Xtreme 4x4 grind. 226/234-111, .480/.498. Either way, try to get pistons with a 10-12cc dish except don't get SpeedPro H423s. Since you're going with a full rebuild anyway you may as well find another $250 and do a 383 stroker, with 16-22cc dihed pistons. As for balancing, even if your pistons are matched to within 1 gram of each other, that doesn't mean they're not 20 grams heavier than the stock pistons. Plus GM balancing isn't even close to start with. Do spend for balancing. And lastly, you'll want a 670-750 cfm carburetor.

Stekman

Why use a roller block and a flat tappet cam? It's got factory roller provisions, give it a roller cam.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

the block is machined, but i dont have any of the roller parts, its probably $200 for lifters dogbones and the spider. plus a more expensive cam

what gain will i really see?, increased cam life?...... the car sees maybe 5000k miles a year probably far less than that, its a weekend toy. i realize there is a potential power increase but is it worth the costs?

somewhat the same story on going 383 with it, how much will i really honestly gain besides an increased fuel bill from feeding more cubes?

granted i did say i can kind of afford to build something decent now, but the limit is far below the sky, its a pretty low number compared to what i see some here stick in a motor but i want to stay close to $2000 budget on the long block,

whatever route i take should be a vast improvement over this 70 something smogger rv cammed pickup motor

ericjon262

Junkyards are your friend! dogbones don't have anything to wear out, same for the cam plate on the front of the block and the spiders don't have much to wear out either, I have heard of them breaking before, but they are only $20 new from the dealer IIRC.

Atilla the Fun

Most of the time I say the roller cam over the stroker, but for you I say the opposite seems to match better. The stroke will add 27 ci, that's at least another 25 ft-lbs, from just above idle, on up past 3500 rpm. The car will feel much more driveable, and adding 26 ft-lbs at 2600 rpm is another 13 horses. And driving just 5000 miles per year, why worry about losing 1, maybe 2, mpg? Stroke that thing.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

ok humor me atilla, can you recommend a crank? what do i need for a flywheel/balancer if i stroke it? remember i am running a t5 now

i would like to go t56 later but not untill a go through a couple t5s i have around

so where does that leave me for flywheels later on also?

im open to suggestions but the money has to stop flowing somewhere

Atilla the Fun

There are 2 ways to do this, either internal balance or external balance. Internal balance allows you to use whatever flywheel you have now, but requires buying 6" rods, and slightly-more-expensive pistons and 1/16" rings. While these are good for higher rpm, your stock flywheel is not SFI certified, for use at the dragstrip beyond a cetrain E.T. or rpm. If you go external balance, you do have to use a 400 damper, but you can use whatever rods you were going to use for a 350, and 383 pistons are priced about equal to 350 pistons with the same features. Like cast vs cast, or hypereutectic versus hypereutectic. And either way you do need a cam with a smaller base circle, but this is generally no extra charge, or just a few dollars. You just specify it when you order the cam. I suggest you go external balance, which can be done for around $300 over the price of a 350, assuming you will have it balanced whether you do 350 or 383. Also, whatever flywheel you end up with will work with a T56 also. For 383 cranks between $190-230, look at www.competitionproducts.com, though other places also sell Eagle's 383 cranks as low as $190. And assuming your heads flow enough to support an extra 27 ci, this is one of the best bangs for the buck, usually running around $10 per horse. About the things with more power per dollar are intake manifolds and nitrous, if you can get free nitrous refills.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

ok, on the heads we are talking about gm casting vortecs as sold by sdpc, so they are modded to allow .525 lift, but are otherwise stock castings..

im gonna guess this pushes me back towards not stroking as far as flow ability goes


no one has mentioned my choice of ignition system? anyone use that summit box? i presume it is a knock off of an older name brand unit, as is most of the summit branded stuff


my current 350 is sold and will be coming out in the next couple weeks,

i imagine i did ok getting $350 out of it, pretty good money around here, i only gave $100 at the local yard for the one im rebuilding

i am losing my performer intake and distributor/wires in the deal but those weren't going to do me any good anyways, since im going vortec, and different wireloom and the distributor was rather ancient

Atilla the Fun

A vortec headed 350 with the GM hot cam, and an RPMAirGap, will give 401 hp at 5600 rpm and 428 ft-lbs at 4200 rpm, with 385 ft-lbs down at 2600 rpm. If you stroke it, and use a COMP XE282HR-10, you can realistically expect 486 ft-lbs with 1.625" long tubes and the RPMAirGap, and I believe the dyno showed 445 or so HP. I can pull the results out of my files tonight and clarify this tomorrow. In fact, I will, because I forget what rpm the peak torque happened at, and what rpm the peak HP happened at.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

those are some interesting number atilla, and i would be thrilled to be at the 400 horse level, the gm hot cam is a roller correct? got specs?

Atilla the Fun

The HOT cam specs as 218/228 at 0.050", and 0.492" lift with 1.5:1 rockers, on a 112 lobe sep. ground 3 degrees advanced. With 1.6:1 rockers, it's 0.525 lift, and the effective duration creeps up to 220/230.
But for an extra $300 or so, instead of just making 428 ft-lbs at 4200 rpm, the 383 will give you 426 ft-lbs at 2400, and keep giving that much until 5500 rpm, where the dyno showed 428 ft-lbs. 486 ft-lbs at 4200 rpm and 449 hp at 5400 rpm shows that, relative to the cubic inches, the XE282HR was no larger in the 383 than the hot in the 350. But it's your build, you choose.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

thanks for all the info atilla, it gives me alot to think about... its about time to get serious.

i really need to get to the engine builder here and talk to him about this deal..

i sorta doubt im gonna be able to swing the stroker between the parts and machine work, but the guy im using has been known to do some sweet deals on stuff like that before.

i was offered parts to go roller for a pretty decent price, which makes it a more viable option.

lets side aside the stroker thoughts for a moment and educate me on flat tappet vs roller and why?

for example the hot cam you mentioned vs the xe274 i originally mentioned the duration and lift numbers are very close

what benefits besides increased cam life and a little less resistance maybe freeing a 1-2hp

again thanks for all the time and input atilla

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

Atilla - Thanx for the info on the balancing/flywheel issue with the 383, you answered a lot of my questions about the swap. I'm considering turning my freshly built 350 into a 383 after some other upgrades and/or I break it. And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong below.

Firechicken - Using a roller cam allows for steeper ramps and flatter peaks on the camshaft. This opens and closes the valves faster and keeps them open longer which increases the flow of air/fuel into the cylinder and exhaust gases out of the cylinder. There is also the added benefit of reduced wear on the cam and less chance of wiping out a lobe as you mentioned.

Quick hijack:Atilla - Would it be cheaper to get a stroker kit or to have a 400 crank clearanced to fit the 350 block? The u-pull near my brother only charges $10 for cranks so I was thinking of just getting one from there when I go to do this.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

well, i am committed to build something now, as the old truck 350 is out and gone, 2 people and 1 friend that wants to learn, and 2.5hrs the engine was resting on a stack of boards waiting to go to its new home.

im leaning towards staying simple with flat tappet cam, and just an overbore to clean up the cylinders

but i need to get to the engine guy and see what kinda deals he can do me on the fancy stuff,

we talked on the phone a month ago, and it sounded like for about $625-650 he would rebuild the shortblock including balancing, that price is not including a cam. not sure yet if i will take him all the stuff and let him assemble the entire engine or if i will do the topend, it will depend on his preference. i want to do some of it, but i also want him to back up his work just incase.

dont beleive that will be an issue tho, he did my dads motor and told us to run in the cam and drive like we stole it.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

one other question,

will a stock mechanical fuel pump be sufficient or do i need something more?

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

this build is moving forward, i dropped the motor at the machine shop today, just doing a standard rebuild flat top style pistons and decking the block to get proper quench

i also ordered 99% of stuff to get it together, just need a few gaskets and i should be good to go,

suddenly i feel poor, yet excited

ericjon262

ya, the poor feeling will probably stay for a while! it's the same one I've had since I started painting mine!

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

by the time i pick it up friday i'll have $2400 spent after that tho its just odds and ends but i could see it adding up to another $200 easy fluids and gaskets arent cheap anymore

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

well, i have the shortblock, wound up having to go .040 over to get it nice so 357 it is

need to finish getting my tins cleaned up this weekend, and hope that sdpc actually ships my heads today like they say they will, i ordered tuesday but evidently they were out of head gaskets.

still got quite a bit of cleaning to do in the engine bay as well, but things are coming together ok so far

sooo we shall see....

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

got everything cleaned up and i think collected the small stuff that you always forget over this past weekend..

sdpc failed to ship friday, apparently it wasnt just a lack of head gaskets

and upon calling monday was told that the second head just got finished with machine work for the spring upgrade,

but i was assured it would ship an i would have it by the holiday weekend. of course i never got an email with tracking info nor did the website update.

today tuesday they received another call from me, and i was finally given tracking info showing 3 packages en route for thursday delivery of course sent fedex instead of ups that i requested and was told "no problem" ups comes before i go to work fedex comes whenever they feel like it

so far im not impressed at all with sdpc customer service, calling them is a nightmare but at least someone answers the phone eventually, emailing them is almost completely useless, and they dont let you know whats going on with your order, for example they need a disclamier on thes upgraded heads stating they are made to order and therefore may delay shipping. not to mention having an order status section of the my account page is useless if it doesnt update, mine still says preparing to ship.


at any rate things should be assembled friday i hope..... im getting antsy i want my car back sunday was beautiful for a cruise and i had to do it in my intrepid, comfy yes but true fun?.... not so much

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

its been a busy holiday weekend here, got my stuff from sdpc thursday and got the motor in and fired up friday, killed the 7 yr old starter in the process

saturday i got it off the stands and ran it around a little, im am having some issues getting it timed,

look here
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ing-issue.html

it seems to be mechanically sound and for the record the RPM Airgap fits with an edelbrock drop base and 2.5 in tall filter, atop my 600 cfm holly which will most likely be getting replaced due to not being enough, as was mentioned earlier in the thread


dont know how much room i really have but its not scratching the paint

thanks for the info earlier in the thread atilla, i wish i could have acted on some of it, but like i said the money had to stop somewhere

if you could look at the other thread id apreciate it.