R.O.B.

I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and we have emission stanards close to California. I must keep the Cats, EGR, Smog pump, Evap system, ETC...

What can be done to still get lots of good power (I would love to do a ZZ383) and yet stay legal? Anyone been down this road? I wander about things like how much lift or duration of a cam I could go yet still pass.

So far, my thoughts are: I could stroke it or supercharge. Their has to be another way, preferabily without power adders.

Any info will be greatly appreaciated.
Rob

Air_Adam

There are lots of performance parts with CARB certification (Basically, CARB certified means the part is legal under California emissions laws).

Lots of companies make performance parts that are CARB certified... I know AFR makes heads that are, Edelbrock makes various parts that are, as does Hooker, SLP, and probably Hedman for exhaust parts... cams don't really *need* to be, as they will never be able to ID the part without a complete teardown. If the cam will pass the sniffer thats all that matters. Same goes for a stroker crank/pistons.

Basically, if a part is labelled as CARB certified, its legal in all 50 states.

Ikillricecars

stroke it ,get a good set of heads,10.1 com,,and put a cam in it but keep the duration no much more then 226 @50 or you will have problems at the sniffer and lift over 500 is fine,110 112 over lap is very streetable!
if you build,t motors you sould know what you can do and how far to push it!
just don.t tell them its a stroker,with heads cam,etc etc ,just say its a stock 350 with ex

Rolling Thunder

Well i know this is going to sound alittle crazy but allow me to explain. Thers only 2 ways fundamentally to improve horsepower increase the volume and increasing the efficency of a motor. Now when the volume of your motor is limited to say 350 cubic inches (as technically a 383 is not legal as if thell ever know) the only way to get high amounts of horsepower is to use more and more radical parts designed for peek efficiencies up in the higher RPMs. This in turn causes low efficiency and increased emmissions down at the lower RPM. So i would have to say if you want to achieve a number like that with a small block chevy it might be best to start out with a very efficient motor like the LS1 with street legal parts that can maximize the amount of power for a given volume of fuel air mixture. Engin swaps are legal in most states as long as its a of a displacement that was available in that modle car of your year or newer. Im not saying that you cant get 400 hp out of a convential 350 with street legal parts designed not to push your emmissions beond there limits but it will be more difficult. On the other hand a 383 or a 400 SBC would pass a visual inspection (as its the same in appearance to any other SBC) and could use more tame parts than a 350 improveing the low end efficency which translates to reduced emmissions. Now you might say that thats true but its also a greater volume of emmissions due to the larger motor but emmissions are measured as a ratio of parts per million because the volume of actual emmissions would be a function of RPM even on a factory steer legal motor. So it dosnt matter the actual volume of particals that are emmitted as long as there proportion when compared to all the other particals is in check. A few tips to concider if you want to take it on though high compression helps burn fuel more efficiently (lower HCs and CO2) however will increase NOX due to the higher combustion temperatures. A cam with alittle overlap will decrease NOX (actually cars with a "hot" cam dont need to and often dont use EGR valves because of this camming factor) but killing off alittle compression in the lower RPMs however will decrease how efficiently that gas is burned. With a good cat might be able to make up for the difference but its really all specualtion without any hard evidence. Also even a car that wont normally pass an emmissions test can be tweaked for the test to pass especially on a carbed motor. Although theres lots of slimey tricks out there for carbed and FI motors.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Check out some of the cars in the SoCal section. VincentZ28, 1989GTATransAm, Dyno Don, and myself are all 12 second TPI cars, making at least 340 RWHP, and passing CA smog.

http://www.sc3g.org/phpBB2/viewforum...7137df59abd317

Don and myself have posted our combos in our member's rides section. Allen and Vincent you will have to search this website to find theirs.

NewJerseyMI

This dosn't pertain to your question but in the state of maryland once you pass your inspection and emissions you never have to go threw another emissions or inspection test again. As long as the vehicle stays in your name that is.

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

In AZ you have to go through inspection every two years. It is not a very involved process like it is in some states. They simply check your; EGR valve, Charcoal cannister and all vapor-retaining lines. Some people will even tell you they check for the presence of your A.I.R. system. I was passed once without it and was failed the next time for not having it. (I guess it depends on how hung over your tester is!) It is also not easy to pass emissions with a LS-1 swap. ( am having to get classic car insurance for my LS-1 camaro due to the fact they will not even do the test on the car. Classic car ins. = no emissions test!) You should post this on the southwest region board. birdtojag is an engine builder and is on frequently. We are currently building a 700+ hp 383 twin-turbo T/A (Mine) that could be made to pass emissions if I really wanted it to. Also know where there is a 383 for sale if you are interested...

R.O.B.

Kevin91Z, thanks for info, that will help alot.

drknow90rs_ss@y, please tell me more about this classic car insurance deal.

Tice

Move to Sarasota, FL.... No Sniffers Here. Muahaha!
Well... With Obama... It may only last a few more days. None of us will be legal... TGO will stand for Toyota Geek Org. cause we'll all be in Priuses...

I agree with the guy that said ask people who've done it...

TheScaryOne

iTrader: (3)

Classic or Collector car insurance exempts you from most nasty laws about your car. But they only let you accumulate X amount of miles per year (In Most Cases, some merely require the house you live in to have a garage.). Or they drop you from the policy.

Tice

My Gran'pa did this for his Vintage Aston Martin... Saved him tonsa money, but, the car hardly ever left the garage...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

X2. what these guys have done is exactly what you need

federal

Well like I have always said is God Bless Florida for NO I MEAN NO EMISSION LAWS...

Tice

Just wait... Obama will change that... Ugh.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

just because they are not checking you emmissions at the station, doesnt mean you dont have to have cats, ect. They are required by federal law!

Tice

......and?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah but thats never enforced, and it seems to me that state laws will override that. They may not specifically say you dont need cats, but when they say no visual emissions inspection or emissions at all sorta implies nothing is needed and they dont enforce the laws

If it all came down to it, you can run a gutted cat and they will never know because it dont matter if it functions or not just as long as its there. Thats why i dont understand how states can not impose emissions checks when federal law requires cars to have that stuff

Tice

I don't know, but, I ain't bi*c*in'... My Car is deff. not a California Friendly car...
Governments twisted to begin with...
About the Gutted Cat... wouldn't that actually depleat power? It's like a Bubble in a water hose... It's extra space that backpressure builds up in, but has nowhere to go... I saw a chart that explained how it all worked, and dyno numbers comparing a cat, a gutted cat, and a Test Pipe... The Pipe got the best hp, the Cat got 2nd, and the gutted one got the worst, by about 15 hp! I can't find the D@mn3d thing, but, if I could I'd shoot a link up... It was interesting. Anyhoo... I don't think 15 hp is that much of a deal. but, I like the idea of not having to conform to a bunch of wrinkled old men in a cubicle and their .02 ideals...

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

The answer to a gutted cat is to have an exhaust shop "mandrel" or "Shrink" a piece of pipe to just under the inside diameter of the cat's pipe and then slip it in there. Bingo: instant straight pipe. Or you can drill the rivets on the cat's heat shield and just wrap the heat shield around a straight piece of pipe and tack weld it on top and that will work for a quick visual insp (But not a detailed one)

Classic car insurance is just what the guys above said. Some companies have no mileage restrictions. If you go the southwest board, this question came up a few weeks ago and there is some really good info in which companies provide which services. I will most likely be using Grundy ins. There are a few of us who are not running cats and have never been hassled. The AZ state law has a loophole in the exact wording of the law which governs cat-converters. Something like: " Original emissions control systems shall be kept in " As new" or to factory working order on all regularly registered passenger vehicles". The key word being "Regularly". Collector vehicles have different registration than normal daily drivers. This of course comes with restrictions. (I would NEVER encourage you to break the law or anything, but it's very hard to prove you arent following those restrictions!)

R.O.B.

OK, I looked at AFR 195 heads today, and I like what I see. And the intended rpm range is 2000-6500, of which I want to change the rear gears to accomodate an higher rpm engine. The problem is, I cannot find a higher rpm range intake (converting to carb) that has an EGR setup. Ideally, I want to use a single plane intake. Does anyone make an external EGR? Or does anyone know how to fab one?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

TPIS makes a external EGR kit for the miniram EFI intake that MAY be adaptable to any other intake. I know Burnout91 i think is doing that to his HSR manifold, i dont see how a carb would be any different.

Tap off the header like the 80's vettes did, and run to the egr valve then back to the plenum (best bet) or one of the runners

Side note, why convert to the carb?

R.O.B.

Looking at getting a good cost effective way to have fun. The computer upgrades and TPI intake setups are just to much money for what you get out of it, IMO.

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

As long as your car is not a daily driver (Or you dont drive far) The carb is a great way to make horsepower. Another alternative is a 4-barrel TBI setup. birdtojag has a lot of stuff for sale on the southwest board, including some carb stuff, I think. We also have a post up about converting any intake to use an egr. I was considering doing this with my LS-1 RS. All you need to do is find a v-6 camaro at a junkyard and get the egr stuff. (The V-6's use a remote mount egr)

90-Vert

iTrader: (1)

You should build it to what you want and then program a chip to pass emmissions. After emmissions then put your tuned chip back into the car. If that would work? Are you going to be running TPI or Carb? Just a thought, don't know if that would work??

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

It isnt always about the chip (Prom). We have a guy running a BB 454 with 4-barrel TBI and he goes right through emissions. The problem with converting from efi to carb is they wont test you at the emissions station. We have a couple of chip burners who frequent the southwest board. There are also a few places that specialize in F-body FI in the phoenix area. (AZTPI and AZ speed and marine, to name a few) I personally like the throttle response and driveability of FI, but thats just me.

Air_Adam

Whats wrong with driving it everyday? If he matches parts correctly, he can have a very reliable carbureted daily driver that makes 400hp. I drove my 400hp 350 for a couple years all year round, including the -50*C days we see from time to time. I never had any problems with it. It was just a 350, XE274, Holley 4779 carb. Wasn't that bad on gas either. My DD LT1 car is only a few mpg better around the city, and no better or worse for reliability.

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

I'm not saying carbs are bad. If you can get it tuned well, you will have no problems. Just that in the Phoenix area the average commute is over 70 miles (Round-trip) and Carbs are not normally as fuel efficient as FI. With gas going past 4.00 a gallon this summer, we try to save as much as we can. Plus if Obama gets what he wants, extra taxes will be applied to all vehicles 95 and older and all vehicles with carbeurated engines will pay a new smog tax (He's asking for 300.oo or more per year, for the carb vehicles and 100.oo additional for "Old" vehicles) I dont agree with it and I didnt vote for the guy, but it is what it is. I only own one carb vehicle and if that law passes, I'll convert it to TBI!

Air_Adam

Sometimes I love Canada

But a carb can be just as good on gas as EFI, especially if its mostly cruising at one speed. Its all in the tuning.

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

I have yet to see a carb that will beat a properly tuned EFI system on fuel economy. Power, yes! Economy, no. Save me a spot in canada. A friend of my mothers is a senator and he has been telling her what that guy is planning.... Scary stuff if you love classic cars!!!