IROCThe5.7L

I really want to get going on this head/cam/intake project this winter. The plan is to throw AFR 195's on my L98, a cam (going to need some help on this one), and an intake (BBK or HSR). I would really like to go low 12's or high 11's (probably pushing it). I realize this isn't going to happen with my stock stall and awesome 2.77 gears though. Those will eventually change.


But right now I want to concentrate on the heads. Some questions (excuse my ignorance).

-These heads should be fine with the BBK or HSR intake right?

-Is the temp sensor the only sensor that goes into the head? That should go into the AFR's with no problem right?

-Which heads do I actually need? I know I need the 65cc. But it lists these:

To be honest with you guys, whatever you tell me I need I am probably going to buy this week. Just letting you know so you don't think I'm wasting your time.



Thanks,

Joe

IROCThe5.7L

Anyone?

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

Whats the difference between part number 1040, 1041, and 1095? Maybe you'll get some good answers if we had more info.

Air_Adam

Whatever your combo, if you plan to keep the TPI setup, build it with a powerband that tops out under 6000 rpm, as the "meat" of the TPI powerband is about 1500-5000rpm. If you go with a Stealth Ram intake, it will have similar characteristics to an LT1, so it should make power to 6000-6200.

My suggestion:

TPI Manifold
- AFR 180cc Comp Ported
- LT4 Hotcam
- Comp Cams 'Pro Magnum 1.5' rockers
- Hooker 2055 headers

Stealth Ram
- AFR 195cc Comp Ported
- GM '846' or '847' camshaft
- Comp 'Pro Magnum 1.5' rockers
- Hooker 2055 headers, or the full length Super Comps.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

I struggled with the same decision earlier this summer....

I bought the AFR 180 Eliminators (PN 0918) and think that they're great!!! Complete work of art.... 5 Axis CNC'd
I bought the 180's because I didn't want the car to be lazy around town.... and some say that the new Elimminator 180's flow like the old 195's anyway, so I don't feeel like I'm losing out on anything.

I'm not sure if your gonna use a higher stall torque converter, but many recommened the Eliminator 195's and are very happy with them. See link, maybe you can PM some of the others....
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...tml?highlight=

I threw down 330 Rwhp 349Tq on a Mustang dyno which are usually under estimated (from what I understand) with a very lean tune (15.5 A/F ratio @ WOT) Anyways, 330 Rwhp should be good for 12.7 @ 105mph (estimated using online calculators, weighing 3480Lbs) Get a good tune and maybe a more aggressive cam and you should hit your low 12's high 11's I would think.......

the 1040's are regular intake face
the 1041's are 72* intake face

The HSR has a 72* intake face as well as a vortec design..... so I guess the 1041's would be OK with the HSR intake, I'm not sure about BBK (do they have them out yet?)

The L-98 65cc angle plug heads worked fine for me but I guess it would depend on what exhaust your using. I thought that the angle plug design gave me more room.

As far as what goes into the head, you can use both of your water temp sending units from your original heads..... there's one on the rear passenger side that the ECM uses, and one at the front driver side that your dash uses

Have fun..... I don't think that you'll be sorry.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I would get the angle plug heads for spark plug clearance. Here are the 195CC Eliminators

1. 1040 is with straight bolts for the intake manifold.
2. 1041 is with the angle bolts for the newer TPI intake manifolds.

So depending on which intake manifold you are going to use order accordingly. Maybe some more research is in order.

The following is the 195cc Competition and is more money but the top of the AFR line for every last horsepower.

1. 1095 comes standard with the straight bolts holes for the intake manifold. Can be special ordered with the angle bolt holes.

IROCThe5.7L

If I knew that, I obviously wouldn't have made this thread.



Wow, thank you GTA Sammy and 1989GTATransAm. Your help is VERY appreciated. You cleared up a lot for me. I think you hit the nail on the head with "maybe some more research in in order". I was planning on buying the heads and choosing the intake later. But it appears I'm going to have to find out if the BBK (which isn't out yet) is a regular or 72* intake face. Hopefully it will be be like the HSR so I can atleast buy the heads.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

I think your decision will come down to where in the power band you want to spend the most time in.....

I went with the Eliminator 180's because of the port velocity should stay high and therefore they should have better throttle response (the HSR might hurt me in that respect, but I haven't really had a reason to complain yet). The 195's are great by every account and have the best/fastest flowing ports for their size, but conventional wisdom would say they have a slightly slower velocity than the 180's.....????

If you had a higher stall torque converter you wouldn't need to worry about low Rpm velocity because your engine would be spinning and moving air through that intake port. Which helps the 195's with HSR/MR

So to make the same kind of point that Air Adam made;
If you wanna stay in that 1500-5000 Rpm route stay with the TPI (Open it up a little.... Big runners and base etc cause those baby's will flow...) and go with the 180's with a XFI 260....
If you wanna drive a car that will spin in the 2000-6500 range go with the 195's and a higher flowing intake and bigger cam. XFI 268 or 280

By the way, I went with LPE's 211/219 cam because of the powerband and the high lift using 1.6 RR (.536/.560"). There are better though..... look at the Comp cams line up, and if you can program your own prom the XFI 268 or XFI 280

"XFI" 260 Hydraulic Roller Camshaft
Chevy 262-400ci 1955-98
Lift: .560"/.555" w/1.6 Rockers
Advertised Duration: 260°/270°
Duration @ .050" lift 210/218
RPM Range: 1200-5200

"XFI" 268 Hydraulic Roller Camshaft
Operating Range: 1800-5800 RPM
Advertised Duration: 268°/276°
Duration @ .050'' Lift: 218° Intake / 224° Exhaust
Lift: .570"/.565" w/1.6 Rockers
Lobe Separation Angle: 113°

XFI 280 Hydraulic Roller Camshaft
Operating Range: 2000-6000 RPM
Duration Advertised: 280° Intake / 288° Exhaust
Duration @ .050'' Lift: 230° Intake / 236° Exhaust
Valve Lift w/1.6 Rockers: .576'' Intake / .570'' Exhaust
Lobe Separation Angle: 113°

I know it hurts doesn't it....... it took me awhile to make the decision as well because the AFR's cost Big $, changing an intake cost Big $, the Cam costs enough $ ....... and Gas isn't getting any cheaper

What do ya do?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

intake bolts arent a big deal, you can open up the holes in the manifold to fit the angled bolts if you need be. The HSR is just like that, it has a figure 8 shaped slot for the bolt holes so it can fit both styles... So i you want to run the BBK if it ever comes out and its only for the angle style bolts, just modify the bolt holes with a grinder to fit the heads.

If you are going to throw these heads on the stock L98 shortblock i'd have the heads shaved down abit to raise compression. you'll be pretty low with aluminum. Shaving the heads down to more like 60 cc would be optimal to get compression up. Since pistons are usually .020-.025" in the hole on a factory block, i'd run a .028 head gasket to keep quench as close to .040 as you can. Felpro does make a coated .015 gasket that could work with aluminum heads to get quench down to the proper level.

I'd get L98 angle plugs for best spark plug alignment. 1040's i believe with straight bolt patterns. I have that on my car with hooker longtubes and the clearances are great, even with regular plugs and 90 degree boots.


Instead of waiting for BBK you can get a proven HSR intake. I'm not sure if BBK will ever release it but they say winter 08.... what that means could be anything HSR however will support 6500 rpms worth of power and get that car where you want it. Low 12's is pretty easy. 330 whp will do it with good traction and converter.

For a 350 car, i like the CC503, GM846 cam, or similar grinds. A custom grind would be best to get lift around .600 to go with the AFR heads and keep duration in the low 220's on the intake, mid 220's on the exhaust.

Depends on your power range tho, those above cams should support 6000-6300 rpm peak power, shift by 6300-6500. A very fun motor with plenty of guts down low. Match it with a 3200 stall and its a capable high 11 second machine in good air/good track prep


AS far as sensors and stuff, these heads were designed off the L98 aluminum heads so all factory mounting provisions are there, all sensor locations, etc. temp sensor goes into the head but also the fan switch sensor which turns your fans on at certain temps.

IROCThe5.7L

WOW! Thanks again guys!

As far as shaving the heads, I don't know how much I like that idea. Because I may want to use these heads again down the road. If I blow the L98 and decide to build a 383, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want shaved heads right? I found this post and he seems pretty happy:


I am for sure not going with TPI. I would like atleast a low 12 ET with a decent MPH. That GM847 cam sounds nice though! The car will see mostly street driving though, I would still like to have some guts down low also.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

GM847 sounds kinda long in the duration department with 234/242 Dur@.050 .539in/.558exh lift w/1.5 rockers (although I like the lift, but it would be .575/.595"lift with 1.6 rockers ) I don't think that the AFR springs would handle .595" lift and you may risk hitting a piston!!! I guess that duration would get you up in the 6500 Rpm zone, but you would probably be looking at a 2000+ stall converter and some serious prom tuning.

The GM846 sounds a little more tame and usable as far as powerband goes with 222/230 dur@.050 .509in/.528exh lift w/1.5 rockers (Thats .543/.563" lift with 1.6 Rockers)

Sounds like alot of fun..... I wish that I had known about all these grinds before buying the LPE cam, because it looks like I gotta do some programming anyway (I shoulda done more homework )

By the way.... I'm using Felpro 1094 Head gaskets with .015" compressed thickness to keep my compression ratio up, as my deck height was already .040" to begin with and I haven't had any leaks yet..... I've used them before on other builds and sprayed them with Permatec Copper Spray Gasket

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The AFR Eliminators will handle .600" and a little more. The Competition heads will handle .650" lift.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

847 cam is a nice aggressive 383 cam, i wouldnt use it on a 350. that cam spins to over 6500. stock shortblock wont like it. That 846 cam is a nice grind tho.

AFR will handle .600 just fine

Rayzor32

iTrader: (1)

don't **** with the motor just get gears and a stall. If however your hell bent on it i'd go carb'd.

IROCThe5.7L

I really want a cam with a nice lope to it. I know I have to pick a cam for performance and not sound. But when I do all this work, I would really like to have a cam that won't be hell to tune, but have nice overlap.

Edit: BBK got back to me and said:
So it looks like I can at least get the heads now. I am leaning more towards HSR now though. So it looks like 1041's it is! Orr, where did you buy your AFR's from?

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

I know that you were asking Orr89Rocz.... but I got mine from AD Performance, cost me $1440.oo USD.... I think his name was Brian.... Nice guy, great to deal with and I got my heads within 14 days (not bad considering that they have to cross through customs.)

I would suggest getting 12 point head bolts (some spots are tight and you won't get a 6 piont socket into them) and some Manley washers (you don't wanna scar the aluminum) He'll know what your talking about.

Oh ya the AFR website says to go with longer rocker arm studs if your using Comp Cams Pro Magnum 1.6 RR. Don't worry about that..... the new Eliminators already have the longer studs....

Have fun!!!!!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I got mine from AD performance as well. good price free shipping or somethign like that and shippin was fairly quick too, took maybe a week or so at the max, i cant recall but it wasnt a long wait.

If you want lopey but not to much a bear to tune, i'd try the 224/230 cam on a 110lsa. I think the 112 will give you a decent idle chop as is. With the chambered tube catback your running i think it will idle pretty mean on the 112. My stock L98 sounded mean with just that muffler swap. But you can get more chop with the 110 and still tune it. I got a 109 in my 383 and it lobes around but i have the idle set alittle higher at 950-1000 rpm. It gets lopier if you go down to 850-900 but i lose alittle brake vacuum

Being MAF sensor you can easily force open loop if you want and tune via wideband air fuel ratio gauge like the LC-1 with G series gauges. Thats what i'm doing and it works but my car will run in closed loop just fine, i just had a lean startup condition i couldnt cure and i just got frustrated and went to open loop. I think i know what the problem is and may try closed loop again someday.

toxik IROC

iTrader: (12)

Wow man great thread! This is the exact swap ive been plannin. AFR 195 eleminators, hsr and cam( dont know anything about cams yet)

Thanks alot of great info and good luck to you!

btw everyone I talked with says to go with ADPERFORMACE ( http://www.adperformance.com/index.p...roducts_id=208 ),so thats what I would go with.

mo

Burnout91

In reference to post #10, my AFR's were to milled to achieve 62cc chambers.

Bill

IROCThe5.7L

The more information the better. Thank you again GTA Sammy and Orr. I will be placing my order for the 1041's this week. This is going to be quite the journey-lol I know I will be able to do it between my father and I. But this is my first time doing a H/C/I swap. I still have the cam to think about (but thanks to you guys I have some direction), hardened push rods?, replace timing chain?, bigger injectors I'm sure I'll need, RR's...etc. Well at least I have a foot forward buying the heads.

Edit: It appears AD Performance doesn't carry the 1041's. Hmm... "The HSR is just like that, it has a figure 8 shaped slot for the bolt holes so it can fit both styles"

-So it looks like I'm ordering the 1040's? Lol.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If they dont have the 1041's on the site, call and ask if you havent

else just run the 1040's and HSR or BBK if they are drilled for both. I'm doing it on my HSR no problems. Just use a big washer under the bolt head to cover up the slotted hole and get good clamping force on the manifold. Now if you want a cleaner look they do sell angled washers just for this purpose of having straight bolts on a manifold drilled for both angled and straight bolts. Expensive washers tho.

Yes to all. Not a big expense but definately needs upgraded. depends on your cam choice, 24's may be enough, but 30's would be awesome for a HSR/846 cam setup and leave room to grow on in the future

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

What heads did u end up getting?

IROCThe5.7L

I'm going with the 1041's. I would have them already, but I have some "things" going on as of late, and the heads are the last thing on my mind.

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

I just got a set of the 1040s from AD performance and had them in 6 days. These heads look killer! I'm going to probably go with a
230/236 .565 .568 108 cam from Lloyd Elliot and upgrade to the 155psi seat pressure and 380-400 open pressure from AFR. If you send your new springs back to AFR with $100, they will send you the upgraded springs.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Good choice

88BlackZ-51

iTrader: (2)

A few questions for you.

1) Why on a 108 lobe seperation? Why not something like a 112-113 LSA? These cars aren't easy to tune. How are u tuning it?

2) How much were the heads?

3) What's your total combination meaning cubes/compression/intake etc.....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

89 6E MAF should handle that setup just fine but closed loop may give you alittle head ache at first. I run a 109 on my 383 but with more total overlap on my cam and it was fine in closed loop, it just ran like **** at first for 30 seconds on restarts because the o2 sensor was not hot enough and needed more time to heat up before entering closed loop. I even had a heated sensor but it didnt help much. I just forced open loop and never messed with it since. But i think i could get it to run normal on restarts

All of that can be adjusted including o2 milivolt cross counts which will help tame idle down. ECM will think its lean with overlap but you can correct alittle for that.

After that, part throttle tunes just fine. Minirams and LT1's love tight LSAs you will make abit more power at peak that way but will have a slightly more peaky powerband overall. steeper rising hp curve and falls off afterwards. torque curve will still be strong, especially the high end. That cam will rev up tho, expect to shift by 6500 i'd say

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

1. Its a proven combo for the LT1 guys to make killer power. My car is run with a 411 OBDII PCM and apparently you can use EFILive to get a very solid tune. Hopefully PCMForless can tune it. I can trailer the car down there.

2. $1440, -$144 with an ebay coupon, minus $200 from a Microsoft Live promotion, so $1100 shipped.

3. 355, 10:1, Miniram, forged flat top 4 valve relief pistons, polished X rods, cast crank. ARP Fasteners.

ml258-89iroc

you could go with the first intake. we are trying to get a group purchase going.

http://www.firstfuelinjection.com/products.htm

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

After owning a Miniram for a couple years I don't think I'll ever go back.

toxik IROC

iTrader: (12)

Any upates?

IROCThe5.7L

Well, I'm trying to order. But no one seems to want to answer my emails at ADPerformance. With the shift I work, it's hard to make a call.

toxik IROC

iTrader: (12)

I completly understand. what questions do you have?( might be the same as mine, as I will be ordering the afr 195cc 64cc this up coming week)

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

I know it's hard, but be patient (sp?).... with the market the way it is, he'll get back to ya..... nobody wants to miss a sale.
I e-mailed him a bunch of times due to my shift work and it took a day or two as well.

I thought that they were great to work with!!!!

IROCThe5.7L

Well I had to have my father call today to order the heads. I just couldn't find time with my work schedule. He talked to Brian. Brian claimed I didn't need the Manley washers, and to NOT go with head bolts, but to go with head studs. So my father said ok. How do you guys feel about that?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

nothing wrong with head bolts. STuds can be tough to seal on our blocks with the bolt holes going thru the waterjackets. I used bolts on my 383 no problem

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

yeah, nothing wrong with bolts...I'm kind of surprised he said not to use them.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

infact, if your motor is staying in the car during this build, i dont think you can even install heads with studs on. They will hit the firewall/windshield lip i think

IROCThe5.7L

Doh


I'm just going to tell him I want the bolts. That's what I wanted from the start.

IROCThe5.7L

Better late than never.

toxik IROC

iTrader: (12)

who did you get em from? Also how long did it take to get the heads?

IROCThe5.7L

ADperformance. Took about 3 weeks. When I said better late than never, I meant because it took me so long to order. I don't think 3 weeks with milling was bad at all.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

They are "Works of Art!!!" aren't they?

It was almost a shame puting them on the car rather than on the Mantle.... (with my other trophys)

Congratulations!!!! You won't be disappointed....

IROCThe5.7L

They sure are! The last part is here. I'm ready to start tearing down the engine.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Polished ...... nice.

Take lots of pictures... I did. It helps with getting things back together. Expect some surprises along the way....

Changing out the Cam ended up being a B*tch!!!. had to lift the engine out eventually when I tore the front oil pan gasket... and I couldn't get the bottom of the timing chain cover back in....

It's easiest if you can lift the front of the engine up so that you can drop your oilpan....

My
have fun and make sure you post your results!!!

IROCThe5.7L

Pictures work great! I'm going to take a lot of pictures, and label things. Thanks for the advice. I'll take as much as I can get! I'm sure I'll be making 50 threads when I'm in the process with questions, haha. Actually, speaking of questions. Does anyone know which head bolts need sealant on them?

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

I put sealant on all of them..... can't hurt. Actually the Haynes Engine Overhaul Manual suggests it.... then it also goes on to say put oil on the threads as well....? I put lube on the washer and bolt head to prevent binding/gouging.

You won't have any problems recognizing which bolt holes go into the waterjackets, it's plain as day once you get there...
Just slowly creep up on your desired ft/lbs in 3-5 steps and retorque afterwards.

No problems thusfar.....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Any bolts that go thru waterjackets need sealant. put lube/oil on head bolt/washer and torque in 3-4 steps. I'd then let it sit for a few hours and retorque them.

IROCThe5.7L

Sounds good. Thanks guys. This should be fun!

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Which Cam, Rockers and Fuel injectors did you go with???