joshh44

well i ran into a little problem. im building a drag car and i was deadly on building a good 383 engine for my car. project but something has poped up and started making me thing about something else.

a older fellow has i think its a mid 80s or late 70s chevy truck and he is trying to sell it. he asked me if i would like to buy it and put the engine in my camaro.
his truck has a 454 big block engine. im not to sure how much he is selling his truck tho but it got me thinking.
i could scrach my 383 engine drag car project and go with a 454 build. i know what i would be getting into. but since i was going to make a 383 engine. i would have stiffin the frame and have gotten a new rear end and tranny for the extra power from the 383. but if i got a 454 i wouldnt have to do as much. besides trying to make it fit in the engine bay.

what do you guys think?

i already bought a chevy 350 block tho. but i could use that for a different car or perhaps sell it?

GTA50

Go for the 454!! I keep teasing my wife about putting that engine in one of our Firebirds, as I have a '80 GMC pickup with a 454. I believe Chevy did that in 1983 (with a 454 bored out to 596) at Lime Rock anfd absolutely killed the 5.0 Mustangs. So, it fits with some mods - reminds me of the 350 vs 454 Corvettes.

Gary.

joshh44

i havnt completly thought this threw eather i just thought of and so i thought i post it up and see if i get any good ideas.
i dont know to much about 454 engines but it wont be to hard to learn bout them.
are they as popular as a 350? like as parts wise or are they more expensive?


i would love to have a big block in my camaro lol

AlkyIROC

The cost of the build would be roughly 25-50% more than the 383. Machine shop work costs the same. Parts, depending how far you want to go, are only slightly more expensive.

The most expensive part of the swap is headers. If you search through the forums, you'll see many threads about headers and exhaust systems for a big block. The Hooker SuperComp swap headers are the cheapest and the worst fitting. They're good for a mild 454 since they're designed as a good street header. An all out race header can be $1000+.

The pickup truck 454, as long as it runs, is a good starting platform. Find out what castings are on the heads. My guess is they'll probably be 781 oval ports. If so, then a good port and polish and some 2.19/1.88 valves and they'll do well for a long time. If it has peanut port smog heads then you'll have to budget for a new set of heads. Merlin oval ports are a good value. Even the cost of aluminum heads has come down over the years.

It doesn't matter if you put in a SBC or a BBC, SFC are a must. Even if you don't run into the 11's, a minimum of a 6 point roll bar will really help too.

Read the sticky at the top of the Engine Swap forum on doing a BBC swap.

joshh44

i searched up a thread about the headers and exhaust on here whiched helped out.
since i had some time to think about it i think ill stick with the 383 for now and if its not what i expected it to be then ill try a big block engine.
i got subframe connectors in my budget for the 383 build. im thinking about getting a 8 point roll bar to help stiffin the frame even more. thinking of getting it from jegs. cheapest i found so far.
but for the big block. how much power would it have for a mild built 454 compair to a well build 383??
----------
i forgot to mention that the truck with the big block engine is running. he drives it from time to time. it has an ugly black and red camper/canopy thingy on it. it does run tho. and it sounds like it runs great. no smoke or rattles or anything like that when he drive pasted my house tho its in need of a new muffler unless thats what a big block engine sounds like haha loud.

AlkyIROC

Any good engine should be able to produce 1 HP per CID. Displacement is the easiest way to make more HP.

2fast4u92z

I say build a 434ci sbc

Very easy to get 700+ on that.

And if you run in a class it would be easyer to run the sbc.

joshh44

434 sbc is from a 400 block right??
what is the difference between the 400block and the 350 block??

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

larger bore, 4.125", larger mains, thinner cylinder walls, they can be problematic, you could use an after market block, but then your price goes up considerably. There would be a lot less headaches with a 383, and you could always slap a supercharger or nitrous on it if you need more power

AlkyIROC

A stock 400 block won't survive very long as a 434. The casting is too weak. The 434 is normally made from an aftermarket 400 block bored .030 over and a 4" stroke crank. The cheapest way to get a 434 is to buy a crate engine already built. When you get into these bigger displacement engines, you can forget about using factory SBC heads. They have a hard time flowing enough air for the bigger engines.

grumpyvette

BUILD the BBC as a 496 stroker theres NO WAY a similarly built 383 can ever keep up with a correctly built 496 bbc with its larger displacement, better ports and bigger valves
Look, if both made 1.35 hp per cubic inch
383=517hp
496=670hp

and your going to find it slightly easier (not neceasarily cheaper)to build a 600hp PLUS bbc than a 500hp PLUS sbc

http://maliburacing.com/patrick_budd_article.htm

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/foru...ad.php?t=87044

joshh44

how much more would it cost to build a good big block engine.
i know there more heavy for the front end of the car so i was gunna replace the front springs and struts when i put in the 383 anyways.
im just woundering if its not that much more to build a stroker bbc engine then a 383. i may just go with the big block.
what is the differences between big block and small block??
i dont know to much about big block engine. are they practily the same as a small block just in a larger scale? do they come in 2 bolt or 4 bolt mains? or are all 454 big block the same? and are they stronger then a small block?

if they are easyer to work on and less problems to run into then building a 383 stroker ill probably see if i can get my hands on that truck.
ill see if i can the numbers off the engine.

AlkyIROC

The distinction between any big block and small block is bore spacing. Because of the larger cylinder bores, the bore to bore centers are farther apart on a BBC compare to a SBC.

That's also why there are no big block Pontiacs etc. Those blocks use the same bore spacing.

The BBC has more potential than a SBC mainly because of the head design. Even the smallest BBC head has larger valves than a SBC head and even larger valves can be installed. Factory heads can be ported out and have larger valves installed to make more than enough power for the average owner. Factory BBC heads came in many different casting. From very small combustion chambers which really shroud the valves to very large chambers. Just about every aftermarket head uses the 119cc combustion chamber. Unlike a SBC, it's better to raise the compression ratio with a dome piston than it is with a smaller chamber.

Because of the increased bore spacing, the block is longer. The position of the transmission doesn't change and the location of the motor mounts in relation to the transmission is the same on a SBC and BBC. This means the extra length moves forward ahead of the motor mounts. The deck height is also taller on a BBC meaning the engine is higher and wider.

Factory BBC blocks come in 2 and 4 bolt mains. A 2 bolt is still very strong and can be made stronger by using main studs instead of bolts.

joshh44

hey thanks for the information. very usefull
so if it sits longer at the front. would i have to modify the front end of the car? like somehow move the radiator forward more? or get a smaller aftermarket rad? and if it sits taller. i could just get a cowl hood. is there a way to make it sit lower in the engine bay with out modifying the transmission mounts?? and if it sits wider. im guessing its heck of alot more difficult to install a set of headers in there. it be pretty tight.

im just going to read the fourm on the BBC swap.
probably answer alot of my questions.

i was thinking of that stroker. 496 was it?
the kits seem fairly expensive from what i been seeing.
would i have to go forged crank and rods on a big block stroker? or would cast crank or at least cast rods be good? im not going in adding a power added any time soon. i was hoping to reach hopfully 500 plus hp with a 383 then supercharge it in afew year. but after reading about BBC. i can get the amount of hp from a BBC then a supercharged SBC for roughly the same price if not cheaper.
i havnt done any BBC part pricing. i looked into cly heads and there about $150 - $500 more then SBC heads. which i didnt think was overly to bad since they are bigger intake valves and what not. more HP go faster!

my cost of the 383 was around $5 - $6 grand. i was getting forged parts for the supercharger for the future. could i make a BBC with the same budget and get even more HP out of it?

AlkyIROC

Guy at work is getting a 383 built for his second gen. It's going to cost him $7000 when it's done.

Estimated value of my 540 is $20,000 but then the only thing factory on or in the engine is the alternator. The bare block is worth $3000

joshh44

now thats one expensive engine.
just the block is double the price i paid for my camaro.

so lets say i put $5000 into a small block. lets say i get 450 - 550hp.
but what if i put $5000 into a big block 454? what would the power be in that??
very close to the same hp and tq range?

grumpyvette

http://www.dougherbert.com/dhp496che...?cPath=614_615

http://www.ohiocrank.com/enginekits.html

http://www.ultrastreet.net/engines.asp

GOOD engines are NOT cheap but there are good values available

joshh44

good engines arnt cheap thats forsure.
i rather have a good engine then a semi good engine :P
but i dont have that amount of cash on me to get it shipped here and what not.
it be about $7500 - $8000 by the time i get the engine to my house from the internet after paying taxes and shipping.
i need alittle extra money for getting SFC and a roll bar and new tranny and rearend. i could wait another year to get a well build crate engine. but i kinda like the idea of building my own engine. knowing that i build it. i would be more proud of it. get some experience in it as well. nothing like getting your hands dirty

i was thinking more of the lines of getting a 454 engine from that truck down the road. rebuild it. and added a bigger cam. new intake. bigger carb. rebuild the heads. maybe get a new crankshaft or buy the stroker kit for it. found some that are just over $1000 for the crank, rods, rings, gaskets, and pistons. didnt think that was that bad of a price. gotta do some more shopping around tho for prices.
it could be a good start anyways. my guess doing that would be about $2500 - $3000. thats my guess anyways.
i gotta find out if he still has his truck tho! i havnt seen him drive it for awhile now!

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

The 383 is the engine that GM never built and should have. I would build a LSX 454 small block though

Precision cast iron, CNC machined
Bore: Siamesed, 4.25 max
Stroke: 4.500 max
Deck: 9.26 / 9.70
Main Cap: 6-bolt billet
Head Bolts: 6 per cyl. ( Accepts production 4-bolt)
Crank Sensor: Production 58X

You cut down the weight of a big block, and still get 600+ hp. Same size as the 350 cid 880 block.

You wouldn't have to change your front end at all. But it is a little costly.

joshh44

i looked at that 454 small block engine last year or 2 years ago or something. they wanted alot for it. wanted something around $15000 for it. i was like. umm no to much haha.
im not to worryed about the wieght of the front end of the car. i was going to get a fiber glass hood and a front clip that should save some weight for the front end. i was gunna buy new front end suspesions anyways with stiffer parts. i just bought brand new steering parts. center link. idler arm, tierods, ball joints. swaybar end links. i was gunna replace the control arm bushings but i ran out of money. ill have to do that when i do the engine swap. its gunna be mostly drag with very little street use. just for like evening drives and weekend drive durning the summer anyways. nothing major. the front end wont bother me to much. get some aluminum heads. and get some light weight parts should help aswell.

anyways. i found out that the truck is still parked at older fellows house. just need to talk to him about it. see what he wants for the truck.

if i do end up getting the big block. would i have to change the fuel lines? i was thinking maybe i could use the fuel line size from the truck and throw it on the camaro. i dont want to starv the engine of gas.

i was talking to someone and they said if i went BBC for my camaro. he says it may put me in another class for drag racing. is that true??

AlkyIROC

Depends what "class" you currently race in. If it's just typical bracket racing, engine size means nothing. Bracket classes are based on ET. Most tracks now use an Electronics and No Electronics class under different names as well as a street class. Some have an ET break for the different classes. Others will allow a non electronics class to run very fast.

Electronics means using throttle stops and delay boxes to control the car's ET and reaction time.

joshh44

ohh ok.
i just checked the classes for this year anual drag weekend close to where i live.
i live on an island. we dont have a drag strip on the island but i think the island is trying to get a drag strip happening again.
anyways they are running for time classes i think.
if your slower then 13.50 seconds you will be put in that class or if your faster then 13.49 but slower then 10.99 thats another class. and so on. so i dont think it will matter about engine size.

how much power are you putting out on your 540 BB engine??
i checked out your website. really like what you did to your car
i got similar ideas to do on my car sometime in the future.

AlkyIROC

Using the formula to calculate HP from 1/4 mile MPH in relation to the race weight, I'm putting out roughly 750 corrected HP to the wheels. That's what I would expect to see on a chassis dyno. Because I race at altitude here in Calgary, I'm really only getting about 650 to the wheels.

Race weight for the 2007 season was 3060 - 3075 pounds. That's the car, fuel, me etc. How much weight the engine has to move when it's sitting on the starting line. Best MPH in 2007 was 141.95

Always use MPH. It's a better indication of HP. ET relies too much on traction. You can spin off the line and get a poor ET but MPH will stay relatively constant.

I'd love to get to Mission some day just to see how fast I could really go at or below sea level.

joshh44

this year ill be doing the drag raceing at port alberni vanocuver island.
its called thunder in the valley, its where we have like burn out compotetions and cars from ranging in hp from 2000hp to 50hp. even if you just want to bring your beat up junk to the track to see how fast it could go down the 1/4 mile strip. its really alot of fun.
i think its somewhere between. 100 to 500 feet above sea level. ill have to research that acturally on how high it really is above. i know its under 1000 feet tho.
i really hope they put a strip on the island. then i wouldnt have to go over to the mainland all the time.

says you had a 454 on your website that you have one in your camaro. what was your best time with the 454?

AlkyIROC

Back when I ran a 454, it wasn't more than a very good street engine. LS6 pistons running on pump gas, hydraulic cam, single plane intake and 850 DP carb. I think I got it down to the low 11's

Port Alberni airport has an altitude of 8 feet.

joshh44

wow. 8 feet. didnt think it was that close to sea level. wow wow.so if i put a mild build 454. would it have the same power ratio as a well build 383?? i would like to get the most power that i can for the best price. i know the easyest way is to put a power added but i dont want to add that on until i get really good hp coming from a non powered added engine. i would love to run 11s. my other goal is to beat my 2 nighbors who are going down to the alberni drag races. one is a 2nd gen camaro with a 350 engine. he says he is putting 400hp but runs mid 13s. and the other guy is running a late 80s or early 90s daytona turbo. he ran last year of a time of 14.5my goal is to beat the guy in the 2nd gen camaro. he has a posi rear end and a TH350 tranny with i think somewhere between a 2500 - 3500 stall converter. i know my tranny will explode. how much hp could i get from a 383 engine to run into the 13 if not faster mark?? ill post up the parts that i have listed to buy. a parts list hehe. 383 stoker kit with forged crank and rods.not to sure what kind of pistions to get but i was thinking flat top pistions for now.aluminum assembled cly heads from jegs for $679.99 each. and the specs are. - 2.100'' Intake and 1.600'' exhaust stainless steel valves- 64cc CNC machined combustion chambers with angle plug design- 10° locks, Chrome Moly Steel retainers and bronze guides- 7/16'' Rocker studs and 5/16'' guide plates- 1.550'' Springs - .680'' Maximum lift - 215cc Intake runners no idea what size of cam to use. i heard i would need a really big cam to run with the thos set of heads.i was thinkiing of a 800 - 850 CFM carb. not to sure what brand yet.and a Victor Jr. intake manifold and for exhaust i was gunna go with long tube headers and have the exhaust exit just before the rear axle. i was thinking with 3" piping but would i need to go bigger? would a 3.5" be to big? i was going to do the exhaust work my self.------------------------------------------------------------------how much hp do you think i would get out of that??i priced it all out and should come to about $5500 to $6500 alittle more and little less. im hoping less.but here is the other problem. that would be all my money just for the engine. i was thinking. maybe i dont need to make the engine that insaine with the tranny i got. i found a TH400 for $800. what kind of heads would work best? are they abit big?? probably should put this in another thread lol but i typed it all out already anyways. i know the stock T-5 Tranny i have wont hold up very long with the the engine. if i can tune down my engine and save money and use that money for the tranny upgrade. thats $1500 for the heads. i found others that are $650 - $1000 for a set of assembled aluminum heads but there not that big of heads. 2.02intake valves which are pretty common. i heard the bigger the heads the more power you get. so i been following that rule i heard for awhile now.what do you think?thats why i thought of the 454 build. maybe i can mildly build it and get a new tranny. i would like to run into the 13second mark.

joshh44

wow that looks so sloppy reply lol.it looked so nice when i was typing it out to