86 F-BIRD

Iam looking to build a 305 for my bracket car. right now i run in 14s but with my new combo iam looking to get in the low 12s on motor and high 11s on nitrous. What are the most powerful and relaible combos out there? Do you guys runs lighten cranks, aluminum rods, what heads are the best, do you use the stock pistons? ANY infomation on this would be awsome, it will help me choose my combo!

THANKS
SBS Motorsports

Apeiron

Why a 305?

8T9 BANDIT

why is there always some {edited by mod - Board rules violation} that has to ask that question?

but to answer the poster's question. there is a guy on here with a white sportcoupe camaro that runs those exact times with a 305, im sure someone will chime on with his name.

atc3434

iTrader: (4)

Yea, unless your running 500 plus ci, you're really limited the power potential. Sarcasm off.

There's a guy on here in the 12's with a 305. I'm looking for his name, I can't remember it. Its a white sportcouple w/ fat rubber on the back.

ecetim

I remember an article in a Chevy mag once where they took a fourth gen, built a nice 302 for it (I can't remember what gen motor they built off) and ran it against a stock Z28. The 302 beat the pants off the Z28 - lots of potential in any motor, it all depends how you build it.

8T9 BANDIT

why cant other memebers understand that? there is actually a thread, it might be in the tpi forum called fastest 305 tpi's and there is more than 1 in the 12's and a good number of 13 sec lb9's my goal is a 12.7 after the procharger goes in..

wrsjr

I guess its the same reason some people ask import drivers why do you want to waste all that money on a 1.8L or 2.2L engine trying to go as fast as a mild built 305 or 350. The guy who I bought my car from wanted the 305 back so he could build it, so I said more power to him and sold him the engine back. As the saying goes there is no replacement for displacement. Add all the nitrous or F.I. you want, but you can only put so much fuel/air into a certain size hole.

Apeiron

Because if the stated intent is to go fast, then the best return on investment is not a 305. Yes, you can build a fast 305, but you will never, ever be faster than you would have been if you spent the same money on a 350.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Mwnova66 is the guy with the white sports coupe. He's got a somewhat mild setup, 113 heads I think, magnum 280H cam.

Tim Burgess had a really hot TPI 305. With nitrous it was in the high 11's.

If you're doing bracket racing, look up mod313 I think his name is. He's got a 305 bracket racing car that's in the 10's I think. That's a full on race car though, not street legal, etc etc.

I'm surprised so many people came out of the woodwork to support building a 305. That's not the norm around here.

As mentioned, a 350 will get to that 12 second timeslip cheaper and easier. Or a 400 or....
Unless you're in a class where you need to use 305 cubes type of deal.

Then again those people usually don't come onto an internet forum and ask an extremely vague question like this..... *cough*.
PS - Aluminum rods - make sure you know exactly how long these last. I think it's measured in passes on the dragstrip, not highway miles, and it's not a 3 digit number type of thing.

8T9 BANDIT

he said for bracket racing...

Apeiron

Yes, but his current 14s are adequate for bracket racing. I'd prefer to hear him express his own reasons for wanting a 305 instead of speculating.

8T9 BANDIT

well wasnt post #8 speculation
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im gonna stop now, i dont want to p-off anymore moderators.. sorry

Apeiron

No, it was a reply to your question as to why people question 305 builds.

xlwhellraiser

iTrader: (1)

Actually sometimes its cheaper to build a 305. Lets say that you already have a 305 in your car, and lets say that its in great condition. Why take it out if its working great?? Thats my main dilema. I had a built 350 sitting on my porch for my previous car, and than I bought a car with a brand new Jasper 305 with oil pressure to put a smile on your face. I got rid of the 350 because I didn't need it.
Now, if you have a good 305 you are already half way there instead of buying a 350. Put in a cam, good valve train and you have a smoking motor.
The biggest problem with 305 is shrouding. Still, if you get some good heads the potential is there.

Sure, the 350 would be faster for same amount spent, but you see 350 in every car now a days. 305 on the other hand is something you can brag about. I've seen waaay to many 305's "that could" that I am not believing every Joe telling me that a 350 is the way to go.

Apeiron

There's nothing wrong with a 305, I have one in one of my cars. I have no plans to ever change it out. However, there's a difference between running a 305 because you already have it and you don't care about absolute performance, and explicitly choosing a 305 block as the base for building an entirely new performance engine. As soon as you're planning something that involves changing bottom end components and performance is your goal, the 350 is the economical choice. For that matter, even in a 350 block if you're replacing bottom end parts for a performance build, then a 383 is more cost effective.

GuitarJunki17

iTrader: (1)

I gotta agree with Apeiron here. Sure, you can make a 305 go fast, it's been done before, and Matt's camaro was done primarily through weight reduction and suspension mods. But bottom line is there's really no benefit going with a 305 over a 350. It's not like it's more cost effective either, as the same parts will bolt right over, you are paying the same for a 350 part that you are for a 305 part. It's not like choosing between a 350 and a 427, where big block parts are twice the cost of small block parts. At that point the price/performance ratio is worth taking into effect, but not when comparing a 305 to a 350.

Basically, if you are willing to shell out thousands to build a 305 that you already own a fast motor, then you sure have the extra few hundred for a 350 block and machine work involved with it, so why not just do it?

86 F-BIRD

The reason why i want to build a 305 over a 350 is, that every bracket car you see out there has a 350 or bigger, and i want to prove that there is a good amount of performance in a 305. And if you follow the ENGINE MASTERS CHALLENGE, there are two 305 in there that i say that have a chance to win cuz i think the 305 can make the power in the lower to mid rpm range while others struggle? Thats my opinon though.

Apeiron

The powerband of an engine is a function of cylinder head flow and cam profile, and has little to do with displacement. The Engine Masters Challenge is a competition for street engines, not racing engines, scored by the sum of average torque and horsepower per cubic inch, over a fixed RPM range from 2,500 to 6,500 RPM, and is limited to engines of stock displacement (no 383s, no 434s, etc.), with limited static compression. These restrictions are to level the playing field, and are the only reason that a 305 has any hope of competing. If it was a truly open-ended competition to make the best power, it would be full of 14:1 572 cubic inch big blocks turning at 9,000 RPM. If you look at the absolute performance numbers of a 305 in the competition, they're actually pretty meagre, and wouldn't be able to push your car into 11s.

If you want to build a fast 305, then it's done the same way as any other chevy. Power comes from the heads so get the best you can, but your choices will be limited by what size valves you can resonably fit in a 305's bore. Pick the biggest cam you can that won't exceed the flow capacity of the heads. Choose pistons to bump the compression up, choose a set of rods to handle the power level that you'll realistically be making, balance the crank, and spin it as high as your heads and cam will let you.

LB9GTA

iTrader: (1)

I had a 305tpi. I knew that wasn't the best and fastest around but.....
If you want to bracket race it and keep up with the big boys, then put the nitrous to it and run it till it blows.
Then transfer all the parts over to a bigger engine(like I did)

To each his own.

Grim Reaper

The limitation on head selection due to the small bore (which also shrouds the valves), is the biggest reason why people tend not to build 305s. If you are seeking maximum power, you want the best flowing heads with the biggest valves possible (generally speaking).

And, as Aperion stated; no matter what you do, if you bolted the identical parts to a 350, you will have more power & torque than when they are on a 305 by simple fact of the bigger displacement. And, similarly building a 383 over a 350 (if you need to replace the stock crankshaft in the 350).

But, before you guys start jumping on Aperion who asked a very simple and valid question "Why a 305?", you need to realize Aperion is just trying to find out what the poster's real reason for building a 305. Aperion is knowledgeable and can help build quite a potent 305 if that is truly what the poster wants.

There are plenty of valid reasons why a person may wish to build a 305 (like they wish to preserve a numbers matching rare car). Knowing those reasons is important if you wish to receive the best answer, especially when the person posting is new to TGO and none of us know them (yet).

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Lower- to mid-RPM is where the 305 is going to get killed. Reasons have already been stated.

The cost of being different is high on both ends - you spend a lot of money doing what others know isn't cost-efficient, then you get beat. Of course, in bracket racing it's consistency that matters (unless you're trying to get into an ET-limited class). But, you added to that - you said you wanted to be fast as well.

8T9 BANDIT

this is what i mean,, the 305 vs 350 thing always comes up on these threads.. of course we all know more cubes = more power... why cant we answer this kids question, and help him build a tough 305 for his braket racing???????????? and if i recall corectlly the majority of thirdgens that were v8's had some sort of 305,, maybe thats why us " thirdgenner's" want to build nice 305's

8T9 BANDIT

hey five 7 what did i say that was innapropriate?????? its a pretty WEAK move for you to penalize me for those words..?? well i guess its because u r a fairly new moderator,, and u need to use some of ur authority, it must make u fell like more of a man or something.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

:ban:
If that's as helpful as you get to these boards 8T9 Bandit, you can just keep moving along.

8T9 BANDIT

i dont think u know what youre talking about "sonix" read the posts.. the last one to five7 was actually a reply to a i.m. that he sent to me.. keep youre two cents to yourself buddy..

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I was responding to that. That's rude. If you'd been here more than a few months you'd know how long Five7 "kid" has been a moderator.

Guest

Once you get to the point of boring the block, using a 305 doesnt make much sense for any of the reasons listed above. If you want to... thats entirely your choice but from a pure $ to HP standpoint the 305 is a losing proposition. If you have one and you're using what you've got with just some bolt ons, nothing wrong with that. I have a s/c 305 and its fairly quick but if it ever blows I dont see the point in running another 305. For those in a money pinch the 305 is a nice option though because used 305's are dime a dozen and if you just drop one in (without rebuilding it) its a pretty cheap deal.

8T9 BANDIT

madmax tell me more about youre 305 sc, i will be going the procharger route pretty soon. similar to 86z's setup,, whats r youre hp, tq #'s and e/t"s

hung4wheeler

well I was looking through these post and I figured I would enter my 2 cents for what ever its worth ..

you cant compare a 350 to a 305 and you cant compare a 327 to a 350

a 327 is a way to go for horspower but they are hard to find thats why
most people build 350's ..in the end its all about what you want dont
worry about what every one else thinks I love my motor I would never change it but I have thought about it before ..any way build that 305 and go find some one to race after you win you will smile all day trust me

american muscle got to love it

Apeiron

Yes, a 327 is a way to build horsepower. So is a 265, 283, 302, 305, 327, 350, 377, 383, 396, 400, 427 or 434. The 327 isn't "rare" at all though, most people just won't waste a perfectly good 350 block by building it as a 327.

There's no "magic" in any combination of stroke and bore that can overcome a displacement deficit. With all other things equal a larger displacement absolutely, always, without any exception whatsoever makes more power than a smaller displacement.

8T9 BANDIT

there no better feeling than smokin a 350 and seeing the look on the guys face after u tell him ur running a 305

Grim Reaper

Actually, I am more impressed with a guy who can build a faster car with the least amount of money - regardless of displacement or parts combo.

Guest

I havent run the car at the track but once, best that day was a 13.8@104 with a 2.3 60' time at 7-8psi. I'm running 16ish psi now but no track runs. Figure its good for mid 12's +/- at this point.
Given that its a used engine that I paid a couple hundred for and a used supercharger that was little more than a good pair of heads, I dont have much in it.

Only good part about a 327 is it shares the same bore as a 350. Thats about where it ends. I'm sure though pretty soon we'll have someone chime in about a 302 and old school solid lifter and how much better those are too. Thats fine I guess, makes for easier pickins.

Grim Reaper

I've been waiting for someone to bring up the idea of using the 302's 3" crank in a Motown 400 block (with 350 mains) to make a 321.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Okay, here are the basic request and statement.

To answer the request: Do that stuff. mw66nova used ported 113 aluminum heads, also lightened his car. They may not be the best heads, but they worked well for him.

As for the statement: Don't presume it hasn't already been proven. It has. NHRA stock class 305's run in the 11's. Stock casting heads, no porting, stock compression, stock unported intake, q-jet, etc. Hardly streetable, but if that isn't important to you, then no problem.

So, spend as much or more building it like a well-built 350, since building them is the same except for details such as pistons and balancing; get about 85% or less of the power as you would building that 350. Will it be faster than the typical stock-like 305? Sure. Will it be faster than 350's? Some of them, most likely.

Oh, yeah, you said "reliable". Tweaked to the max engines don't qualify as "reliable", and if your goal is to be faster than fast 350's, then cross that piece off your list. A 305 that is as fast or faster than similar 350's will not be as reliable.

Red Devil

Ok, first, a 302 and a 305 are wholly different beasts and the bore size is the big key between the two, if you don’t ‘get’ that, don’t bother reading on, you’ll just get mad/defensive…

Well, we haven’t heard from the original poster, so I’m going to presume that he is just going on something he was told, or that he is still learning, more pointedly, I’m presuming some ignorance on his part because of the particular forum he has asked it in (as alluded to by our own prickly backed rat ). So let’s clear some air here shall we?

Notwithstanding the fact that there is always someone that has to ask that question as well…

Weeeeeell….

1. We have no idea what his goals, limitation and knowledge base are and without those we can not properly answer the question that was so vaguely asked.
2. Unless you HAVE to use a 305, once you hit any machining using one over a 350 is asinine.

If the concern for the build is gas mileage you can pick the right cam for the 350 and (money being the same, I’m partial to mine) still smack down the similarly equipped/spent 305. Similar gas milage, better performance. I don't see any lure for a 305 other than for a table base, lawn decoration or a submerged fishing attraction. Once machine work needs to be involved it is more cost effective to turn that 305 into an arts and crafts project for the den/lawn/pond.

I’ll add:

That’s pretty simple right there and bare-bones summarized most of our stands. But wait, there’s MORE!:

And if it’s still not clear, most times the question is asked we find that it just does not make any sense to go with an anemic piddly 305. That is, as simplistically as I can put it, why the question is asked.

8T9 BANDIT

well from what the majority of these guys are saying on this thread.. unless u have a l98 equipped thirdgen.. you car sucks.. and is a slow p.o.s. with absolutely no potential. lg4 cars suck lo3 cars suck l69 car suck and lb9 are really bad i guess..i guess we should all sell our thirdgens because there slow. and because a couple guys on here five7kid, red devil.ect...say so. so dont make youre car faster with bolt on's and dont make it look pretty with new paint and wheels because according to these few guys the majority of our cars are useless.... wow i really feel bad for the guys in the restoration boards,, what the hell r they thinking restoring these **** boxes. on the other hand,,, im on this site because i love my t/a and im improving on its performance and looks.. because i want to. oh and a 12 sec 305 isnt so slow..in my opinion.

atc3434

iTrader: (4)

I think you're taking things a little personal, and from a pretty skewed perspective. Maybe you'll here this a little better because I'm still driving around with a 305: The 305, while not a bad motor in and of itself, it not a good choice for any serious performance modification. If you're stone set on leaving the motor in the car, and not taking it out, then sure, you can do some work and run pretty quick. If you're serious enough about performance, you're going to care more about $$ vs. HP than what displacement the motor under the hood is. Thats all these guys are saying, that the 305 can be built to be stout, but a stouter 350 motor can be built with the same dollars invested. They just want to see you go fast without breaking the bank, and a 350 is a much better way to do that, no two ways about it.

antman89iroc

To 86 Fbird. Dude- you sure opened Pandora's box here! I didn't know asking a specific question would invite so much controversy. Sure glad I'm building a L98 lol. Well I guess I should keep my big mouth shut since it's not a 383. Anyway good luck. Do what ever you want and I hope you get the answers you seek. I heard of a turbo build on a 28x cu small block pushing like 1,600 hp. The thing I like most about hot-rodding is putting your own thumb print on it. "Why" may be a relevant question if it's asked for the sake of answering your question and not being used as a club to beat you over the head with. The hell with the nay-sayers. Moderators or otherwise...

8T9 BANDIT

hes been on here for a long while, he's only been a mod for a couple months.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

You said you were responding to Five7. Five7's been a mod as long as i've been here, so I can only assume longer as well. That's 2004 FYI.

1991 RS 305

Am I the only one that wonders why so many people here cannot stay on topic? Its sad that a fellow member like 86 F-BIRD can ask a solid engine hop-up question and get hammered for it. Many people clicked on this thread hoping for decent replies, not cheap slams. Lets play pretend and substitute 350 for 305 in his question......then people could jump down his throat because he's "wrong" for not going 377, 383, 400, 406-----572 crate!!!

Anybody besides me see a narrow-minded pattern here? No replacement for displacement, right?

The 305 vs 350 debate will go on forever, so what? So will the Mustang vs Camaro debate (Camaros ARE better, of course). Competition and challenge is fun and enlightening, thats how we improve.

All he did was throw a question out specific to his needs, looking for reasonable suggestions. He's decided he wants to build his 305, its his engine, get over it! If you have nothing to add because you don't know how to reply to the question, let it go.

I imagine some of those that slam the 305 around here do so because it seems to be the easy, 'peer-pressure' thing to do, like 'herd-mentality'. Or maybe they just go with the majority because its safer than to risk being an individual and doing something because you want to, not looking for the safe approval of others as justification. Also, some of those that jump at the chance to slam fellow "3rd-gen" members might have little experience at small blocks and how they respond to coordinated mods. Instead, the thinking goes something like....... "this is junk because my buddys big-brothers-neighbors-friends said blah-blah-blah.....".

Its seems lame for some moderators to chime in with stereo-typed swipes at honest, normal questions from members, the very folks they should defend and "watch-their-backs" so others don't stab them.............I thought they were the peace-keepers on boards like this, keeping people on topic with their "authority", not wise guys hiding behind their keyboards stirring the pot at others expense. Can't we all get along? (hehe)

Cheers to those who actually answered his question at the risk of getting flammed, the rest of you, .................

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

It's a damn motor, not your child. Some of you people are taking this WAY too personally. An sbc is an sbc.

A 4 inch bore has more potential, the 305's bore is a bottleneck. These two things will always be true. Ford 302s are fast because they have the same 4 inch bore as a 350. If you want to build a 305, go ahead. There's no good reason to use a 305 if performance is your objective, unless you already have one and it's a money issue.

If you have the choice of either, the 350 is better for a performacne application. A 383 even better, but a 383 costs a little more for machining, and parts are a tad more expensive. A 305 and 350 COST THE SAME all else being equal, a 350 and a 383 do not.

bntyhntr00

they only cost the same if you happen to own both blocks. The key to remember here is that I doubt that anybody on here has never heard of a 350. But I think that sometimes it is forgotten cars that we built on a shoestring budget that literally decided wether or not we ate for a few days. It's upsetting that the kid who asked the question hasn't come back. And that yet again another thread has been taken up by a debate that leaves potential questions about building a small displacement motor hidden away because of not wanting to be made to feel dumb, stupid or inexperienced. And I know some will say his question was vague but there are thousands of vague questions on here that get not one ounce of ridicule or even, though some may not believe it, a response that comes across as "the only stupid question is yours" How about asking the kid what kind of budget he has first? Why a 305? isn't going to get you the answers you want. And aside from the emotion that the dreaded 305 build question evokes there was nothing vague about "Iam looking to build a 305 for my bracket car" "What are the most powerful and relaible combos out there?" Stop telling them what they should do and find out what they can do.

Red Devil

That's exactly what we're NOT saying. Your reading comprehension needs some work if that's what you've gathered. Let's try the simple approach again shall we?

That clear enough for you? Do you see the conditional there?

If my poor memory serves me he's been a mod since around the time we came to the 'new' board which was a bit before my 'listed' join date. That would equal a bit more than a month.

He's not getting hammered, if you thought that you aren't really reading what's being posted.

Not really, some of the things you can do respond differently. Cam selection alone could be waaayyy off the mark by that assumption... But why not try
playing Let's pretend we don't want to waste time and money and listen to those who've done this a time or two before?

Yes, but you are not recognizing the pattern for what it truly is.

Not by those that actually have done the work. And if we're racing using the same money, I'll take that fox-body please.

Where exactly was this specificity you reference? I thought it was rather vague, enough where I would have asked 'Why?' as well.

You apparently have not been paying much attention to who you are implying have no actual first hand knowledge. I think you may want to contemplate that and try again.

Mods are, primarily, here to oversee the board, not censor.

Red Devil

Part of that was that 'why' question that got everyone riled up. As is typical, the thread then took on a life of it's own.

8T9 BANDIT

ABOUT TIME SOMEONE WITH A BIT OF SENSE.

8T9 BANDIT

RED DEVIL WRITES " ILL TAKE THAT FOX BODY PLEASE" I GUESS HE REALLY DOSENT CARE FOR THIRDGENS, WHY IS HE HERE?????? HE DOSENT EVEN LIST WHAT CAR HE OWNS? GO HOME RED DEVIL THIS ENTIRE WEBSITE IS FOR PEOPLE THAT LIKE THIRGEN F-BODY'S.. AND THAT WANT TO RESTORE, MODIFY, AND IMPROVE THEM.. WERE NOT ON HERE BUILDING PRO STREET MOTORS. WERE ON HERE RIDING AND RACING THE CARS WE LOVE.. IF U MORONS I MEAN MODERATORS AND WEIRDO'S WHO DONT LIST THERE CARS, CANT UNDERSTAND THAT.. THEN GET THE *** OFF THIRDGEN.ORG... SO LETS ANSWER THIS KIDS QUESTION--- WHATS A GOOD COMBO FOR A 305 BRAKET RACING CAR.
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Red Devil

I never said I didn't care for them (actually at last count I think my f-body count that I've owned was around a dozen, thanks!), and again, your reading ability is showing. Under the circumstances I outlined, I'll take the fox-body, it'll win, period.

That would require some thinking, I'd guess since tree huggers don't appreciate him, he owns more than one.

Well, since I've been here apparently far longer than you I think I have some idea of why the site's here. That said, while I am far from the most polite person on here, you will find, if you take the time to ask, one of the more bluntly honest. I really don't care if you don't want to hear the bad news, you're going to get it anyway. Sorry if you're not mature enough to deal with that.

Oh goodie, more apparent maturity. Man I'm glad I sent in some of these smilies, that was probably the easiest way to get this:


Have fun in the McDonald's parking lot.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Where the hell was anyone calling 305 thirdgens junk? WTF???

Man, people need to read and actually comprehend the words. This thread exemplifies why thirdgenners have the stereotype of being complete ****tards.