Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Well, this winter/spring I am going to be dropping a 412 small block into my 86 Z28. It is a stock T5 3.23 posi rear end car. Has sportline springs and hooker 2460 headers w/ super comp catback exhaust. The car is not my daily driver. My birthday is coming up and my question is, what should I ask for.

412 SBC
1978 509 high nickel 400 small block bored .060 over (2 bolt main)
Oil pan is new, but stock capacity (5 qt I believe). New bolts
Stock crank and caps. Stock main bolts.
High volume (velocity?) oil pump.
Pistons are cast and the motor has stock compression.
All bearings are federal mogual (sp?)
Heads are 082's I THINK. Flow was 1.94i and 1.50e, but now have been ported. No flow numbers since being ported. Stock head bolts.
New valves. Lunati .635 max lift springs. Stock rockers and rods.
Edelbrock Preformer Cam
Holley Street dominator intake
Holley 750cfm vac secondary carb
Used Permiblack RVT gasketmaker for all the gaskets.

Motor has maybe 100 miles on it.

I purchased it for 600 bucks plus I gave the guy a weatherguard truck box (valued at 550, but I paid 180 for it a few summers ago). He purchased the motor from a guy who raced at our local circle track. He then rebuilt it. Is it a big deal that he used the head bolts that came with the motor (granted they probably weren't the original head bolts from '78)? Or do you only get new head bolts when you change the heads?

He gave me the motor and the POS truck it was in; a 72 chevy truck. Came with an aluminum radiator and Holley electric fuel pump. I also got a Lunati 07103 Cam that he had in the motor but he said it was too big. He then took it out and put in the Preformer cam. The specs on the Lunati Cam are:

Adv. Duration: 295°/295°
Gross Lift: .534''/.534''
RPM Range: 2500-6500

My question is, what should I do for my birthday? I want to ask for car parts. I'd say price range would be 200 bucks. I was thinking roller rockers? Or is there another weaker link in this motor? Or should I go with new suspension compenents (I already have Sportlines but the rest of the suspension has 100k miles on it)? Also, is that Lunati cam really too big for this motor?
Thanks
-Greg

Check out my website with some more info and pictures.
My Camaro Site

Stekman

Money towards cylinder heads. 400's like to breathe. At LEAST up the exhaust valve size. Find out what they flow at and go from there.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Flow numbers are the stock numbers. I don't know what they are now, but your saying they are probably STILL too low?
Thanks!

Stekman

Just because someone says they ported the heads, doesn't mean much of anything without flow numbers. I've seen ported heads become completely useless because they were just hogged out to make the ports larger instead of focusing on the things that need to be improved. Without knowing what you have, it's hard to know what you need.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

True. How much does it cost to have heads tested? If it warms up I guess I'll take them in.

He didn't port them. He had a shop do them.

Vader

A lot of class racers are required to run stock castings. They probably wouldn't if it wasn't required. Someone may have spent a lot of time on those heads, but they likely are not flowing like some of the better aftermarkets can. Before you spend any money working on those heads, do a little investigation first.

bluers91

Cam is probably too big only because its got stock ported heads on it. If you went to some better flowing aftermarket heads you could probably use the big cam. Heads are most likely holding it back.

If you do pull the heads off make sure they have steam holes drilled in. Otherwise its going to be overheating.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

the cam was too big because the engine was in A TRUCK.

make sure the casting # on the heads is right, 082? I figured it'd be 882 (close eh?). Either way, get 'em flowed and see what they look like up close.

I'd do roller tip rockers, or polyurethane bushings all around. Something like that. What ignition setup is on it? Maybe upgrade/tweak that. Those are all good bang/buck upgrades that you may not have done. (subframes are also good, I think there's a group purchase that may still be on...)

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for all the information guys. I am still in touch with the guy who built the motor; I emailed him today to get the low down on the heads. When we were talking about what the motor had, he merely said they were "ported" and had new valves installed when he bought them. Yes I bet you are right that the heads are 882s. I could be wrong, once again, I'll know when he emails me back.

So if I had better flowing heads then I could use the bigger cam? I guess that makes sense though.

For my ignition, well there is none. I don't have any MSD setup or anything. Is that a big deal if I don't?

I guess I was just looking to see if there were any items that would greatly increase the preformance of this motor for about 200 bucks that I could get for my birthday.

Thanks
-Greg

Air_Adam

If you don't need factory castings, a set of AFR or TrickFlow 195cc aluminum heads, or 200cc Dart Iron Eagles would be a MASSIVE improvement.

A set of Iron Eagles will run you about $1100-ish, the TFS 195s wll be a little more, and the AFRs a bit more than that.

For about $200 though, a new cam and lifters would be a GREAT idea... I'd look at Comps Xtreme Energy cams. They are a pretty good cam.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

ok ok, fair enough.

basically, "motor addons for <$200?

I rattled off a few, but now, a new distributor ($130), or a new high perf coil ($50), or an adjustable vacuum advance can ($30) , MSD 96001 or something

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Yeah my parents don't do the 1000 dollar gifts . I don't even need to ask for car parts, but I just thought why not. I think I've narrowed it down to:

Roller Rockers and Pushrods.
Which ones should I get?
Polyurathane bushings and maybe shocks.
Is the Energy Suspension kit from summit a good one? It is part number ENS-3-18131 and is $99.99. Or do you recommend something else? Maybe with that being cheaper I could ask for two KYB shocks, and I could just buy the Koni Struts on my own time. That would go well with the Sportlines right?
MSD ignition
Which one should I get? Is the MSD-6A a decent "box"? It is part number MSD-6200 in Summit.

I think I'm kinda leaning towards the bushings now. My stock suspension has over 100k miles on it now (Sportlines have about 5k). What do you think about that setup? Koni struts and KYB gas adjust shocks with the sportlines?

Thanks
-Greg

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I just got summit 1.6 3/8" roller tip rockers, they're now only $89. pushrods depend on the engine, and if you need a certain length.... any 1 piece design should be ok.

poly bushings, I bought all mine seperate, so a kit for a 3rd gen would work I guess, just make sure the sway bar frame bushings are the right size.
*ok, so it doesn't have the torque arm bushing, or sway bar frame bushings, or rear end links.*

I have KYB gas-a-justs on the rear, and will have KYB GR2's on the front, along with moog 5664 springs on the front, and cc635's on the rear, good factory upgrade.

the MSD 6A box should work fine for you. Which distributor do you have right now? a stock vac advance one? or already upgraded?

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

It doesnt matter if I get the more expensive ones like Comp, Trickflow, or crane etc? They all are about the same?

That sounds like a good setup. I think I would go with KYB's all around, I don't know why I threw the Koni's in there.

I will look today. I would assume it is just a stock vac advance one. I know there are yellow wires though. The "super stock" whatever 8mm wires wooahh! I'm heading out for awhile.
Thanks for responding so much.
-Greg

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

the ones I bought are stamped steel, so not as strong as the comp ones. Comparable to the proform ones.
Not sure about the others. Comp magnum ones would be good.

Koni's are pricey, if that's your thing, give'r, but I think i'll like my setup. I only have a set amount of cash to restore my car, so I need to spread it pretty far to get it all done.

If it's the stock distributor from the '78 400 block, that might be worth refreshing. If its a new one, then you can probably leave it.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

I hear ya. I'm a freshman in college and funding is limited.

It's a new distributor, but it's not an MSD or other preformance one. It's just your normal Car Quest/Auto Zone one.

SLEEPER 86

do you have headers yet????
if not,that's where i'd go!
you can find headman shorties #68470 and y pipe #17470 in the jegs catalog (free shipping!)for $236.
bang for the buck?beat that!
Eric B

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Hooker 2460 Headers, with hooker y pipe, no cat, and hooker super competition catback exhaust.

Can't wait to her what that 412 sounds like with open headers. The LG4 sounded sweet but man I bet this baby is gonna roar.

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

That motor is a turd. It needs heads and matching cam, good intake, headers and you'll want a good ignition system. I run a 6AL box and MSD 8551 distribuitor with the new Blater coil.

You can get some decent deals on heads that will 'work' if you keep your eyes open. Used AFR's are around for $1000 if you're in the right place at the right time. ProTopline, Iron Eagle and World all make iron heads that are better than a factory casting and are priced decently. Dart also recently came out with their Platinum heads. I have a set at the shop to try but I have to finish the valve job and put them together before we know if they're any good.

I'd run an Air Gap intake on the street.

A set of good rockers is a must. I have Harlan Sharps, only b/c I found a deal on them. Comp, crane, Scorpion and ISKY are all good.

Pushrods, you'll want a hardened or cromoly piece with aftermarket springs. I have Manley chromoly ones. Length will depend on your valvetrain geometry. Measure for the right length and order whatever you need.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Don't have that much money. I figured this setup was a perfect deal for 600 bucks. It will be better than my stock 305.

DuronClocker

iTrader: (1)

Those heads may be okay if they've been ported decently. Stock head bolts shouldn't be re-used unless they are ARP brand.

To be honest, I don't think you'll like the KYBs at all with your sportlines. Go with some Bilstein Sport shocks. Sportlines lower the car too much to allow KYBs to be any good. Trust me, I had the setup...well not Sportlines, but Dropzones, and they are VERY similar in drop Not that my worn-out Bilstein HD shocks are any better *sigh* Those will get swapped some day soon maybe. I have to say that I do love my Koni Red adjustable front struts though. They are nice. Picked up the pair for like $150 or $175 off the boards...half of retail with under a thousand miles or so on them.

Stekman

Stock head bolts can be reused as they aren't TTY. I have in the past with no issues, as long as the threads are clean and the holes are tapped clean as well.

DuronClocker

iTrader: (1)

Ah, that is a good point. Most SBC bolts aren't TTY as far as I've seen. I'm just used to the general rule that they be replaced vs. re-used unless by ARP or other similar brand.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

What is TTY?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

torque to yield

Air_Adam

The Comp Magnum rockers are a pretty good set IMO. They are stamped roller-tip rockers that use the stock-type ball and nut for adjustment.

I have a set and I like them, they are built MUCH beefier than the stock GM rockers are, and seem to be a good quality set for what they cost. They are the ultimate budget rockers IMO. At Summit they are something like $145 for a set, and it includes 16 rockers, nuts, and *****. You can get 1.5 or 1.6 ratio, and also for a couple different rocker stud sizes (mine are for 3/8" studs). Mine are non-self aligning because my heads have guideplates.

For $145/set, you can't really go wrong, especially since the engine you are building won't have massive spring pressures, they would work great on your motor.

SaintedCorrupt

Ask for TKO gears for that T5. Or a T56. no way a factory T5 is gonna hold up for long behind this motor. mine only lasted a month behind a decently built 350.

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

Another "I want to go fast but don't have any money" member.

Air_Adam

So? You can go fast without alot of money (to a point, of course). You just have to know how... and thats what he's asking about here. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

If you would have read my posts I never said ANYTHING about wanting to go fast. I merely asked if there were any weak spots in my motor that I could fix for under 200 bucks. This thread wasn't titled, "How can I get my 400 into the 10's". Trust me, I'd agree with you if my post would have been titled that and I would have been saying "oh I can't spend more that 200 bucks". That's not the purpose of this thread. Believe me, I understand the concept that going fast costs money. I know the T5 is gonna break if I beat it, then I'll need a new rear end, then tires, then frame strengthening. It's a money pit. But only if your willing to spend it. I just want to cruise around with the ttops off. The car isn't going to see the track anymore until it's built well enough. Like I said, 600 bucks was too good of a deal to pass up. Lay off.

Back to the disscussion. What is the difference between the ratios? What exactly does the ratio mean?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

ratio? you're talking rocker arms? 1.5 means it multiplies the cam shaft lift 1.5x. So if your current CAM has .320 lift, with your stock 1.5 rockers (we'll just assume they provide exactly 1.5 lift, which they probably don't), you get .32*1.5 = .480 lift.
If you use 1.6 rockers, which I think is a no brainer, as they're generally the same price as 1.5s, then you have .32*1.6 = .512" lift.
usually the lift of your cam is already rated at 1.5 rockers, so they'd advertise .470 lift or something, so just go lift /1.5*1.6 and you find the new lift with 1.6 rockers.

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

I get all that. I need valve springs that can handle the total lift then right? Do they make any other ratios? Like 1.8 or something? Do I want more lift (I suppose this depends on heads and airflow)? Does that make the engine sound more "lopey"? Can you audibley hear a difference between 1.5's and 1.6's?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

yes, and also your valve guides may need to be machined down.... (I forget the specs on your heads...)

yes, 1.52 is very popular... 1.7 I think is pretty rare, if available for an SBC... The higher the ratio the harder it is on valvetrain.... most people just say get a bigger cam, since this does basically the same thing

it does artificially increase the duration apparently.... so I guess so, but I wouldn't think it would be a large difference...

Codename 47

iTrader: (4)

Alright. I got it. So it's not really that the fact that it's a "roller" on the rocker that makes it special, it's the ratio that gives it more lift? More lift means the valves open more which means more air/fuel and exhaust can move out. But that also means you need the heads that can flow it that well too. That sounds about right?
Thanks for all the replies.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

the roller reduces friction, and frees up a bit of power.
you also have full roller, and roller tip.

the rest you've got right on.

black86iroc4tim

I think that with the amount of power you want to put through that T-5 you should ask for stuff to beff that up.