TA

iTrader: (1)

Cranks over fine, but doesn't even sputter a little. I have fuel, I can smell it. Hit it a few times with spray quickstart, and not even the smallest sputter, just cranks like crazy.

Pulled #1 spark plug, and I have spark, but not sure when or how much. Now I'm confused, it should at least TRY to start, but doesn't. My first thought was timing chain, but it would at least fart or backfire or something.

What would you check first? I'm pretty sure my compression didn't disappear from yesterday...

Thanks

TA

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Timing chain & gears....

Pop the distributor cap, have somebody watch the rotor while you spin the motor, see if it's moving.

8492bird

While you have the distributor cap off check the pickup coil resistance and the condition of the insulation. I just had a similar problem; the insulation was gone on the pickup coil and the ignition module did'nt look to good either. I wound up replacing the whole distributor but I suspect the no start was from a bad ignition module which you can replace pretty easily.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well if he has spark his rotor is moving.

Plug fouled? You getting a good arc?

-- Joe

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Ahhh, Grasshopper... but not necessarily smoothly or continuously, or at the same RPMs as the cam....

TA

iTrader: (1)

With the distributor cap off, I can just barely see the top of the rotor, and it is definately turning, but I can also hear something arching in a major way. I need to get someone to crank the car so I can look, but I think we're on the right track now, thanks guys!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

It will arc like a mother taken half apart that way, if you don't disconnect the 12V wire... it's still making sparks but can't send them to the plugs.... they try to go somewhere else....

Make sure the distributor is turning smoothly, and that it makes one full turn for every 2 turns of the crank; and that it points at #1 or #6 when the timing marks are aligned.

Gerald Jackson

The way i check the timing chain is to get a 5/8 socket and put it on the balancer bolt. Turn the socket forward then turn the socket backward, and the rotor should turn whatever direction your tunring. If the rotor does not move as soon as you reverse direction then the timing chain is loose.

WaOnFiRe

I'm sure it's the timing chain. My V6 89 Firebird did the same symptoms and after much cash spent, the mechanic found out it was the timing chain that was broken.

8492bird

Timing chains rarely actually break, but they do stretch and can jump one or more teeth which totally screws the timing. You already know that the chain is intact since the rotor is moving. A mechanic once told me to check for a mis-aligned chain on a no start he would hook up a timing light and crank the engine. If the timing mark lined up correctly then he would rule out a bad chain.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well keep in mind the rotor turns at 1/2 crank speed.

I don't think it's the timing chain.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've heard that but never actually seen one myself that jumped. I guess it's possible.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I've NEVER, in all my days, seen one that "jumped".

I've seen LOTS AND LOTS, including a couple while I was driving them, that failed, though.

The way they fail isn't by "jumping".

Look at a factory cam gear sometime. What you'll see, is some kind of cheapie pot metal crap in the center, with nylon or phenolic teeth molded onto it around the edge. What ACTUALLY happens, is that the teeth strip off of the gear. It might be, in some cases, because the chain wore enough at all its little joints, to where the distance from one link to the next was so much greater than the distance from one tooth to the next, that the stress from the chain having that much slack taken up at each link, just finally exceeded the limits of the teeth.

Every one I've personally owned that failed, broke while driving down the road. However, I've worked on a couple of other people's, that failed at startup, where the owner parked the car one night, and came back out in the morning, and it wouldn't start; evidently the act of trying to start it was the "straw that broke the camel's back". The teeth stripped the instant the starter tried to kick it over.

Almost always, you can tell from outside the motor, that something evil is going on. Look at the bottom of the timing cover, in between the front seal and the oil pan seal across the front, just to the pass side of dead center. Usually when they go, the chain has enough slack that it's been hitting the inside of the TC right there; and you can see a chain-shaped bulge in teh sheet metal. Sometimes it even wears all the way through and becomes a sudden Exxon Valdez, just all out of the clear blue; then a few days later, it gives up the ghost. One of mine (one that my wife was driving at the time), actually did that; I knew it had just suddenly sprung a MASSIVE oil leak one day, but I didn't get the chance to look at it, and before the weekend came, it parked her on her way home from work.

Anyway, since they're nothing but cheap plastic and chinesium, when they fail, it's pretty much terminal. You find all the pieces laying in the pan. There's no "jumped time", where you can just replace the chain; it's the whole timing set. And the timing doesn't "move" or "jump" to some other point; rather, the chain just stops driving the cam reliably. The cam (and distributor) either sit still, or move in small jerks, and ALOT slower than the crank is trying to drive it.

Maverick_82

i've had a similar prob. check the ignition control, i had to remove the coil and reinstall it and the car would start and run like a dream. now i have a MSD Ignition Control; an $182 value...got it in new condition for $80. never had the problem again

TA

iTrader: (1)

I have personally had and repaired others' that jumped a tooth, because the nylon teeth were worn away and the chain sloppy. However, the fart, sputter, and almost try to start. I'm not getting that. And my rotor is turning like it should, smooth and half engine speed.

The coil is working, shooting sparks everywhere trying to find the rotor with the cap off.

Is there any way to check the ignition controll without replacing it? I'm pretty sure whatever the problem is it has to do with the spark going out of time. I have fuel and compression and spark, its' the only thing left really.

SLEEPER 86

CHINESEIUM! LMAO!!!! sofa!
if she leaves you hangin and the rotor isn't bent all up,the first thing i check is the ignition module.the msd in cap module is THE one to get and is less than $75.the in cap coil for hei has never let me down either.about the same price.$ well spent if you have em.
Eric B

TA

iTrader: (1)

Well, story of my life, I disregarded something really important because it seemed unrelated at the time. I had spark, pleny of fuel (I could smell it) and compression, new battery, so the engine cranked over just like it should. I had an error code of #15 (coolant circuit), which I thought was strange, but didn't believe it would keep the car from starting.

Smell fuel? On a tuned port car? As it turns out a heater junction hose off the front of the intake manifold had been rubbing and squashing the wires that come from the coolant temp sensor, until the insulation broke down and they started shorting. This tells the computer that the engine is REALLY cold and it goes into Choke mode: Maximum fuel!

So, I had a TPI car that was flooded! Thanks to everyone who helped, and I appologize for not giving all the info out, as someone might have put it togther quicker than I did. Obviously if this connection is even corroded or has high resistance for any reason, it's gonna make your car run like Poo, and this goes for you TBI guys, too! (hey, that rymes!)

SLEEPER 86

good job!
thank's for the follow up!might help someone else.
Eric B

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yep. Thats why I asked you earlier if the plugs were fouled.

Glad you figured it out.

-- Joe

Maverick_82

im sure that it can be useful, but most of the time i drop to my knees and thank *** mine's carb'd. lol