ws6transam

After swapping the cam, I finally got around to taking the car back to VT Performance for a trip on the rollers.

We base lined the engine and found that the new cam made a whopper of a difference in terms of power: 254 horsepower, around 265 ft.lbs of torque. With those kinds of numbers, I decided to see if richening the mixture with some richer metering rods would make any difference. Whoops! I had already installed my richest metering rods. However, I decided to raise them up with a B hanger versus the stock K hanger. The second run showed this to be a good move: Horsepower jumped to 262.2 HP at 5500 RPM, and peak torque jumped to 284 ft.lb at 4400 RPM. Wow! 20 foot-lb and 8 horsepower from just a hanger! Maybe this thing is running a little LEAN??

Next, we decided to give the engine, transmission, and differential the "magic treatment" of Dave Percell's Motorkote 100. This is the stuff where they lube up a bearing on a Timken bearing test machine, then stand on the torque wrench to try and get the bearing to stop. Motorkote publishes a graph showing a seven percent increase in power from just the addition of MK100. So, it seemed worth a try. Unfortunately, Mr. Percell didn't show up for the dyno session. Thus, we had to go it alone. After adding 11 ounces to the engine, 5 ounces to the transmission, and 2.5 ounces to the differential, we restarted the car, and let it cruise in fourth gear on the rollers for a few minutes. After that, we did another dyno run. The results were an amazing 262 horsepower and 284 ft.lbs of torque! Thus, we saw no net gain in power.

Perhaps it's a fluke? Perhaps we didn't run-in the MK100 long enough? Just to be sure, we re-ran the dyno test. Again, we were rewarded with 261 horsepower, and 283 ft.lbs of torque. The air was getting hot in the shop, and VT performance doesn't extract the exhaust from the building, so it's possible the power loss was due to varied temperature conditions and/or mixing of exhaust gases with the fresh air.

Anyway, it seems that we saw no net improvement in power from MK100. However, I still went home happy. Even figuring a 17% drive train loss, it puts the crankshaft power of the Feeble305 at 300 ponies, and around 340 ft.lb of torque!

I sure hope the CamaroZ28.com M8 event on October 25th is a nice, dry, sunny October day: I might finally be rewarded with my 13-second time slip!
--Dan Burk

N8MAN1068

nice #'s
anything else done to your 305 besides what in the sig?

89RsPower!

hmm i'd say hes got somethin else done.. thats a hell of a gain for ported heads with bigger valves n a cam

N8MAN1068

prolly.
i bet if you took that cage out, you'd hit 13's based on weight reduction.

89RsPower!

yeah looks like he left a lot outa the sig.. who the f has a cage and doesnt have sfc's? its possible tho.. there was a magazine article provin a 300 hp 305 could be build n/a about a year ago or so and they listed a buildup for it.. still woulda been easier and cheaper to make the same power with a 350 but its defently possible

ws6transam

Yes, there are a lot of things that I left out of the SIG.

Right now, the car with me in it, weighs in at 3700 pounds with a full tank. Quite portly, I know. In fact, it was downright embarrasing when my old cam self-destructed, and left me running 15's on only six cylinders. However, I have an all-forged, Minirammed, 385 stroker engine on the engine stand, with a set of Hooker long-tubes in the box. The Miniram is set up with integrated nitrous spraybars, and even without the gas, it should dyno at 480 HP or thereabouts. With 480 horsepower and a 150 shot, I'll definitely need the cage. For now though, the rollbar just looks cool.

I also have Kenny brown Super-subs installed, as well as Steve Spohn rear suspension. The driveshaft is the weak link: It's only a stocker steel that I had precision balanced a few years ago. The axle has been gone through, and has been made about as strong as you can make a ten-bolt. It's got Greg Moser's 28-spline racing axles pushed into a heavy-duty Gleason/Torsen differential with Richmond gears. It's probably going to be okay as long as I dont succomb to the temptation of drag slicks.

I've written some of it down here:
http://www.ws6transam.org/fcar.html

Oh, let's see: Quick laundry list:

Koni shocks & struts, PST polygraphite front suspension, Spohn panhard, lower control arms, adjustable torque arm. 1991 model year 1LE braking package, Roh ZS 17 x 9.5 wheels with 275-series tires on all four corners.

It turns 1.27g when equipped with road race tires, and I have race data to prove it.

Griffen aluminum radiator, Derale oil cooler, Corvette ZR-1 power steering cooler, home-made cold air induction air cleaner assembly,

S&W Racecar Chromoly 8-point roll bar (65 pounds), Teamtech 5-point race harnesses. '95 Pontiac Formula seats.

T56 transmission from a '95 Formula, 140 MPH electronic instrument cluster from an '87 Trans Am, SPEC stage II clutch, Fidanza aluminum flywheel for LT1 clutch retrofits, 4th-gen pedal assembly retrofit (no, it isn't exactly bolt-in).

1984 L69 305 H.O. with flycut pistons to clear the bigger valves, Melling High-volume oil pump, Comp Cams XE268H flat tappet hydraulic cam, ORIGINAL alternator & computer controlled Quadrajet, Edelbrock Performer manifold, gasket matched to the FelPro gaskets. A/C delete (46 pound savings), Air pump delete. Speed sensitive power steering modification.

1987 Centerbolt cylinder heads, 59cc chambers, fully ported & polished by me, gasket matched to the Felpro gaskets. CC981-16 valvesprings.

Ported Edelbrock TES 6872 headers with Y-pipe, Carsound 3-inch slip-fit catylitic converter, Hooker Aerochamber cat-back, though it's missing one of the rear exhaust pipes, because the muffler fatigued out and spat it onto I-96 when I wasn't looking.

I dunno, that's about it, I think.

I also have some lexan T-tops to install, along with a front aluminum bumper support. I WISH I could find an aluminum road-racing hood as well, in order to shed some more weight.

--- drb

87z28camaro

SORRY

jimmy_mac

His sig say's 14.0 at 100 mph and with those chasis mods that's definently believable, I could see mid to high 15s if a couple of lobes got toasted. I personally have burnt a plug wire unknowingly and only ran a second slower. It doesn't take much to run a high 15.

87z28camaro

well before my engine was rebuilt it was running 17's only had 7 cylilnders, got it rebuilt and its running high 14's thats just what i dont get, but hey ok

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

Alot of it has to do with driver ability, track conditions, and which cyl.'s got toasted. All these BS flags people keep raising are getting a little old. 87z28camaro, what does he possibly have to gain by coming on an internet forum and lying to a bunch of people that he doesn't know and probably will never meet? I know that I only come on here to show my accomplishments and try to help people out, and search for help when I need it. I can't see many others coming on here to do much else. That would be a complete waste of time.

Back to the topic: WS6Transam, nice job on the numbers. That's almost 1 hp per cube. Territory rarely seen with the 305

87z28camaro

ok w/e u say, i still dont see how, but yea, RIGHT on dude, good job, i wanna see time slips too!! sounds great

ws6transam

I'll try to scan 'em. In addition, I have video of the 14.04 run, and I could probably turn it into an MPEG this weekend. However, I will be up at Stanton, Michigan on the 25th in front of the whole midwestern contingent of CamaroZ28.com. I on ly run one or two events per year (I take care of an autistic son), and on July 26th, I ran the CamaroZ28.com nationals. I only made six runs: The first one was 15.something at 93 MPH, and the sixth was a 16.1 at 87 MPH. That's when I quit, and went home. The next weekend I started tearing the engine apart. Intake lobe #6 had ground down into the base circle of the lobe, and had nearly ground through the bottom of the lifter into the spring seat. Exhaust lobe #8 wasn't any better, but the lifter was marginally better. Neither valve could open anymore, and the engine was popping through the carb under load: Cylinder 8 was forcing the intake valve open when the cylinder over-pressurized. I figure I lost intake lobe #6 last year, then lost exhaust #8 this summer. Last October I had slowed from 14.0's to 15.2's which was puzzling. I thought it was due to a worn-out distributor gear, but it was worse than I imagined. Now I am hoping the steel just ended up in the oil filter and didn't make it past and into the oil galleys. Otherwise, I'll rip up the bearings. I guess I'll find out nine days from now!

Oh yeah, one more thing: I don't B.S: I've been a member of thirdgen.org since nearly the beginning of time. I like to keep my reputation! Of course, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and it's okay to be a skeptic. I'll come up with the proof for you.

87z28camaro

hey dude, i believe ya, can you get the video on here? i dk what it is, i just love watchin people race their thirdgen on video and lettin people see it, its awesome, lol, it just seemed to me kinda weird u running 6 cylinders and gettin 15, but i guess about anything it possible, nice times, and im sorry for pullin the BULL**** flag, that was uncalled for, i was also in a bad mood last night, so maybe that was it, lol

N8MAN1068

ahhhh...i see now
it's a 385, not a 305....
feeble305 isn't a 305....lol

bnoon

Read it again. The 385 is still on the engine stand!!!

Nixon1

ONLY made six runs? Man, I'd kill to make 6 runs. I've only made 2 trips to OSW, and made 2 runs per trip. More than that and my tranny gets a little funky.

Damn nice power numbers to be making from a 305. I know how it is with that low cubic inch territory... I've got an EFI 302 and it took full exhaust, heads, a cam, roller rockers, intake, all sorts of stuff.....only makes around 280 at the wheels.

ws6transam

Okay, FWIW, here's some links to some pictures & stuff:

Video taken in October 2000, when the 133,000 mile engine was turning low 14's. This is the original shortblock, never had the pistons out. I did modify the pistons by taking them each to top-dead-center, masking everything off, and lightly enlarging one of the reliefs in the piston. This was so that I could clear the 1.94 intake valve at half an inch of lift. For the record, it's an L69 305 H.O. engine with modified heads, cam, and intake.

The following is not for the bandwidth challenged!

http://www.ws6transam.org/ws6transam_feeb305_run.mpg

Then, in 2002, the car started slowing down. By the time I got it to the track in the fall, it had started turning 15.2's VERY consistently. I lost 1.2 seconds! This is when I think the intake lobe # 6 finally bit the dust, and I lost 1/8th of my horsepower, which was probably 35 - 40 horsepower.

Then, this summer, I went to the strip, and the car lost another half a second, and started running 15.6 second E/T's. That means I was back to where I started, which was about 190 HP. That was a loss of another fifty horepower. Thus, an engine that had managed about 275 HP (to get nearly 101 MPH) was now running about 190 HP to get to 88 MPH. Since I had dynoed the car a few weeks earlier (and gotten only 212 RWHP), I knew something was dying fast when each and every run was slower than the previous one. Sure enough, two days after getting back from Stanton, the car started popping through the carb under load. Cam exhaust lobe # 8 was officially dead.

Here's a couple of pictures:

89RsPower!

ouchy, nasty pics, outa curiosity what did the other guy run in that vid? looked like he was movin pretty good

Damon

Congrats on the impressive results! I have a soft spot in my heart for big, fat optioned-up T/As and GTAs. I can beleive the weight number on your car- my brother's NON-caged 87 GTA with home-made SFCs weighed in at the same porky 3700 (even with ALUMINUM heads on the engine!). My 3rd gens have all been similarly "gravitationally challenged."

I love the wiped lobe pics. That's what they usually look like coming out (if you've driven it to the point it starts missing and popping through the intake). I've seen more than jsut one or two.

1.27G??? Holy cow. My brother's autocross Fiero (lightened, full race suspension components) would pull 1.30. I'm not the kinda guy who's into going fast around corners but the first time I actually FELT that kinda lateral acceleration it was AMAZING. Mostly, I just thought it hurt real bad when my head slammed into the pass. side window! Ouch. Sounds positively badass.

If you need any help tuning that carb, shoot me an email. If there's one thing in life I know dead-bang it's QJets.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

This man is not a story teller, I have a very similar combo to his and have run 13.77@102.48 with a 2.24 60 foot time. Stock size valves in the same heads as he has ( I ported mine myself like him aswell)

my firebird is quite a bit lighter though about 3200 with me in it. You have better gears though, im running 3.42s. Hope you hit those 13s dan, im gunning for low 13s with this combo soon myself

zippy

i'm going to m8 also. i remember seeing your car parked near the sales booth at the camaroz28 national event also if i recall correctly. nice work and nice car.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

You even have a few months more than me on this board!! Great numbers WS6!!!!!!!!!....I don't think I'd pull anything that high with mine, but it makes me want to dyno it!

Again, good job!

zippy

having had done the chassis dyno thing, i'd say it's almost as much fun as racing. going back myself soon.

ChrisFormula355

My girlfriends T/a runs high 13's uncorrected at 3,100 feet here in tucson, and on one pass where I accidently ran the car out of gas around the 900 ft mark, it still ran a 15.5@50mph, so 15's on 6 cylinders sounds right for a high 13, 14.0 second car.

Sitting Bull

Wow! You are getting some pretty wild performance out of that 305

And 87z28camaro, Dan has been on this board for a long, long time. He has helped a LOT of people out with his advice and had articles posted in our Tech section. If he says that is what his engine puts out, you can rest assured that it is true.

smithtc

iTrader: (5)

I'm interested in seeing this race data, and how you come up with 1.27g. What do you attribute this high number to?

D's89IROCZ

I know mine ain't carbed ....but stock I ran a 15.1 @93 w/ 2.2 stock on a TPI ...... them L69's were about the same output. SO like a 14.7 w/ a 2.0 60 was possible STOCK .....so wiht your mods ...... sounds sweeet fer a 305


Way to go man

87z28camaro

ok, im sorry i made a mistake, i read he was running 15's and low 16' the whole time, i now just read it again, and read it straight, again im really sorry for my mistake,

ws6transam

Here's the screen shots of the race data:

http://www.ws6transam.org/glateral.html

Most of the details on suspension are there. Basically, the track was washed clean with rain, and I had done about eight medium-speed laps before really leaning into it with road race tires on the wheels. (That's the secret: Hot road race rubber and lots of negative camber). The lap shown had six or seven instances where the lateral cornering forces exceeded 1.05 g for several seconds at a time. The peak lateral acceleration that was found in the apex of the turns regularly exceeded 1.15 g, and on several occasions peaked at over 1.25 g. Unfortunately in 1999, the engine was still stock, so I could drive at 90%+ for only a few laps before overheating. With the big Griffen radiator, it should no longer be a problem. Egad, I cannot BELIEVE four years have already gone by, but that's it, isn't it? Heck, I only managed to put 500 m [lots of whining cut out here]

I that the car will revisit Gingerman raceway in 2004! Then again, maybe Memphis would be more appropriate?

Nixon1

Damn nice car man. You might want to correct the typo in this paragraph on the webpage though:

Summer of 2001: The car now sports 1LE brakes,17 x 9.5 inch wheels, and a newly revived 305 engine. The whole valvetrain has been redone. The result? Better gas mileage, less oil leaks, and about 13 MPH in the quarter mile. The engine is now putting out approximately 275 horsepower.

That is unless the transmission blew launching it and you had to push it down the track.

ws6transam

heh! Yeah, you make a very good point! I never noticed that little mistake before! Hmmm... I meant to say 13MPH better performance in the quarter-mile!

Thanks everyone for the compliments! 87Z28Camaro, No problems with the flags Without a little skepticism to keep us honest once and a while, we'd all end up telling fish stories ! that ! long.

--- drb