coptzer

iTrader: (2)

....I have also posted this in motor swap so if are reading this for the second time I am sorry....

I have had enough of comparing prices of either buying a 350 or rebuilding my 305. I love my motor but for the money I will spend I just cant justify it right now. I dont want anything too extreme but after comparing #'s I hate the thought of putting up to a grand into my 305 again. I have done alot of upgrades to it already and and now need a new crank. Well, I sat down and racked my brain on what to do. I guess I'll just save the time and money from throwing it at the 305 and buy a brand new motor. A brand new ZZ4 shortblock(I figure if I am going to spend the money I might as well go for a good strong motor).

Now here comes my main question......

Can I use my heads on a new ZZ4 shortblock?. Before you shake your head at me, let me tell you they are not the stock heads. I have done a lot of searches on this and other sites relating to this topic. Now what I have is a set of world products 305 S/R torquers. I used them for roughly a year on my 305 and thought they were wonderfull on that motor, But will they be good enough for now on a 350? I dont plan on leaving them on there forever just dont want to spend all kinds of money right now. I think the heads on the complete ZZ4 are 58cc and so are these. So with these heads and my headers(1 5/8) bigger injectors, different prom, my bigger cam(comp 218-130@.050/462-480)will this work good in your opinion?

What else should I consider? Sorry for the long post....I would like any advice or inputs as I am ready to place my order right away if I can make it work well.

Thanks

ME Leigh

Finally!!, people are learning that there is no point in building a 305!!

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

You know you shouldnt put words in peoples mouths.... I never said it wasnt worth or there is no point in building a 305. I believe there are many people around that get plenty of power from their 305 and they are happy. This is just my personal preference of what to spend my money on now. I have wanted a 350 for a few years but if I didnt I would redo my 305. If you think it is a waste of time than that is your opinion. Some people like the challange and some dont want new motors. I think it is all in what someone wants out of their car and how much they want to spend. Most of us come to tese sites for advice and to see what others are doing. So dont try and take the wind out of some poor bastards sails cause you think doing a 305 is a waste of their time

Besides this post was nothing to do with what should I build, I have made up my mind....not cause you thought a 305 would be a waste. So if you are not trying to help someone ....why respond?????????????

PhilM

305 and "power" weren't meant to go together in the same sentence...my opinion.

but seriously, those heads are really gonna limit the potential of that motor. they are made for small bore engines, not a 350 block. if you are going to use them, put them on what they are made for, a 305. you can get new vortecs very cheap that would run rings around any 305 head.

why not opt for the entire ZZ4? or even the 350 HO, which is about $2K. get 330 hp with vortec heads...great deal. it doesn't have the goodies in the bottom end, but it is a great little street engine.

just my thoughts on the subject...

305LG4Cutlass

Some people just like the idea of going fast and still having the original motor in their car with a bit of work done to it. What makes my car a lot better than a r i c e r is that I can make it relatively quick without doing a motor swap and without even rebuilding the 140k mile bottom end. If they tried to make their little 4 banger fast with that kind of miles on it they probably end up blowing it up pretty fast after spending a lot of money on it.

jimmy_mac

I doubt the L98 alluminum heads that come on the zz4 flow any better that the world products 305 torquers. In fact the zz4 heads are some of the lowest flowing production heads made for the 350. And the torquers have more room to port with. The vortecs however would be an excelent choice. But then there is the spring pocket upgrading and intake to buy. The stock 305 heads have similiar volumes in the runners to the 350 heads. Just smaller valves. The torquers probably have a higher volume than the l98s.

jfreeman74

Most people don't like for other people to build up a 305 because they hate the idea that they may get there butts kicked by a car that was not meant to be as fast as they are with a 350. I have spanked plenty of 350's and they all cried like a little b*&$@ afterwards. IMO, it is more impressive to make a 305 run 13's than it is to make a 350 run 12's. People just need to let people build what they want to build.

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

I totally agree with you jfreeman74.....

It is all in what someone wants to do, so more people should try and realize that.

84 Challenge

C'mon guys! Layoff the 305! Like a few others said, It's whatever their personal preference is. If one already has a 305 and wants only 250hp at the crank, why switch to a 350? I don't need a 350 to be happy. So that's why a mild 305 buildup for me is in the works.

Brandon

kevinc

The 305 is what it is, and there's no reason not to squeeze every last HP out of it while it's in your engine bay. But it's not more impressive to go slow.

87z28camaro

that is so gay you all be dawgin the 305, damn, thats childish, all because you have a 350 whooo hooo, big f*cking deal, thats crazy, my 305 will beat most of the 350's on here, i see a lot of 350's 1/4 mile time in the 14's, omg, mine ran 14's STOCK< hahaha, so sorry to dawg the 350's, but i think its about damn time someone does, but hey its my opinion, or fact on the 1/4 times, i hate to let people down cause they have a 350, but hey it all good, sorry to all if i offended you, im just tryin to set a point,



lol i dont mean to sound like a jack a**, but i dont like people dawgin the 305 when the stock times with the 305 and 350 arent much different,

PhilM

You guys take everything personally, don't you? my OPINION is that a 305 is not worth putting money into when you can get MORE performance for the SAME $$$ with a larger bore motor. I do not run a 350, I actually have a 302, which is (WOW!), SMALLER than your mighty 305. I guarantee it will run rings around any 305 you can throw at me. of course my motor is built for bracket racing and REAL performance (read = 13 second car is still slow), so you guys be happy with your little street toys. have any of you 305 lovers ever been around a car that runs 11's??? I doubt it or you would forget the 305.

so spend your money to get your 305 in the 13's (my old 305 ran 13.80's), and while you are doing that, other people will be doing the same stuff and running 12's. so all you will see is tailights.

TheViper

hey, i built a 283 and i like it. thats just what i had to settle for at the time. i found some good deals and good heads and now its catching up to my brothers 97 z28 with an lt1, it will probably outrun the lt1 on the top end. i havn't taken it to the track yet but i'm sure it will do 14s easy, and 13s with a little exhaust work and a cam and converter. i'm probably going to swap in a 350 at some point but the 283 will outrun just about any stock 3rdgen, probably even l98s. it gets real good gas mileage too.

brodyscamaro

this truly is pointless guys....

all i gotta say is check sig, lol

spartyon

hey if your heads are in really good condition i say port and polish them and reuse them on the 350. that is with money being an option. you could always have bigger valves installed. just a though. and how much is that zz4 shortblock? you can get a 383 from JR Motorsports for a little over a grand. might be something to think about.

84 Challenge

Well...doh! If you're building a 305 to race, forget it! Not all of us are building these up to do that. I'd like a little more power outta my 305 but not looking at racing this thing even on the streets. Maybe I just want a fresh set of heads, headers & cam to freshen up my 305. Is that a waste of $? Does that justify the purchase of a 350? NO!!! Is the word "racing" all that's in your head? Me, personally, with my "freshened" up 305 get my butt handed to me by a L98 Iroc.....WHO CARES!!! What matters to me is that I'm happy with my car and at this point in time a 305 takes care of my needs.

Brandon

dunerida82

Praise the lord! My 305 is saving me hundreds of $ in gasoline as I commute to and from San Diego.

I am darned glad my 305 has the power I need (for now ) and the efficiency to save me money. But I would never rebuild it. I'll go bigger if I change the engine out.

:hail:

87z28camaro

no no no, im really sorry, i didnt mean to sound like the 305 is better or anything, cause i mean of course a 350 is better, but i mean, damn with these gas prices going up, it cost you a lot more, and im just sayin my car is faster than the 350's here, but im from missouri so haha, im sorry to all that i offended or pissed off, i got out of hand on what i said earlier, and i apoligize, BiGz

PhilM

why, yes, it is. but since i race and don't care for 305's, you gotta tear me apart. obviously two entirely different worlds here. once again another pointless post that is out of hand. again i will say my opinion is 305's are not worth the money, but if you like them, GOOD FOR YOU. I don't hate someone for wanting to build a 305, but they should accept that it will not run like a larger bore motor. all i care to say about this ridiculous topic.

Marshall89ws6

well actually my 355 will get about 10-15 mpg.... my LO3 got about 8 with gears.

305LG4Cutlass

Ya I actually don't think a mild 350 would get any worse gas mileage than my 305, except when I've got my foot in it, but the extra power is gonna use more power, its a law of physics. I'd definately take the extra power to be used occasionally and give up some mpg at WOT. I still think for a mild street engine a 305 isn't too bad if your just proving what it can do.

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

So this is what I get for asking for a little advice and help. This **** gets on my nerves so bad about comparing the motors. Thank you to all who replied with some info which actually might help me....

And for those of you who think this was a pointless post... well you made it that way and dont make it much fun for the rest of us....so go bitch and moan somewhere else about who is better and what not...

Try and get a little help from fellow CHEVY guys and look what it turns into....pathetic!!

87z28camaro

coptzer. i 100% agree with you,

84 Challenge

Sorry if I pissed you off. That wasn't my intention.

305LG4Cutlass

Copzter, how much did the S/R torquers cost you? In another year when I get out of school I'm gonna give my 305 headers, true duals with fake cats, performer intake and I'm thinkin world s/r 305 heads. I'll just use all these parts later on on the 350 I build up so why not? Just wondering how much these heads run cause they seem to be the best ones for a 305.

Another question, how much does it cost to convert to roller valvetrain? The local engine shop here told me it'd cost me around $1000 Cnd. to get the roller cam, then roller lifters, roller rockers, and i can't remember what else I need. Any advice? I figured since my block is machined to accept a roller cam why not take advantage of that? Plus I can reuse a roller cam and lifters later on in a 350.

I'm just gonna run all this stuff on the 305 until it starts to get tired then swap it all in a 350. The 305 has 140k on it right now but doesn't use or leak any oil.

jasonbennett

if you really want power from a big small block, then you should go 400 and not waste time with a 350. don't comape power from one engine bore size to another if that person does not or can't afford to get a 350 block to start that build up. give me a 400 over a 350 any day. the 350 i have in my truck is pumping 320 horse but feels slower than my 305 powered camaro because of the weight. if you really want to get into size wars, than what you need is a 502, 572...the list goes on and on but don't preach the 350 thing to someone who can''t afford it or who just wants to see what the 305 will do.....

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

305LG4Cutlass I paid around $700 for the pair. That is in american money though. I dont know what they would cost canadian????

I like them alot, they were great on my 305, quite a difference over stock course I had a big cam too. I say go for it if you want some improvement on your 305. I will use them for this year on my zz4 shortblock I am getting, but will probably buy the fast burn heads eventually, that is of course unless these heads surprise the hell out of me on this motor. I looked at some flow #'s and they flow better than the stock 350 heads just small combustion chambers.

If you want any more info on them feel free to email me at coptzer86@hotmail.com Ill do what I can to help

cr125r

im looking to getting a 350 as well, can you share some websites with me that sell engines, long or short blocks? Thanks

87z28camaro

www.jegs.com, is a very good site, try that

coptzer

iTrader: (2)

www.paceparts.com or www.gmpartsdirect.com ----->( cheaper on a lot of things)

Beast5spdGTA

I think the S/R 305 torquers will be fine on your 350, compression will probably be a little high for pump gas and iron heads, so I'd get your tuning straight before getting on it too hard.

It's amazing how many people chime in w/o even reading the first post.

cr125r

http://www.paceparts.com/product.asp...1=241&3=167052

that looks like a good deal to me and comes with most of the necessary items. my question is, would it bolt up to my auto 1988 305 tbi trans am (mounting brackets or tranny? what else would i need to buy for this to work? how about the electronics?

f-crazy

iTrader: (-1)

its amazing how this post turned into another 305 vs 350...

dude dont let anyone tell you that aluminum l98's wont flow...in stock form there ok...but once fully ported and a bigger intake valve those heads will support 500 horse (in perfect conditions mind you)...but more relistically around 450...i was gonna build my 305 cuz thats what i had...but i blew it up so im goin with another 100 cubes ...

the sr tourquers will work but like mentioned you may run in to detenation...id say go for the zz4 or a jr motor

PhilM

I also need to apologize for the way this post got out of hand. Hope there are no hard feelings out there.

Marshall89ws6

Well, not really. You can run up to about 10.7:1 on 93 with iron heads... if you keep the timing in order and the engine temperature in order. Theres a guy aaron at baddass engines (the owner) who builds motors with that compression that will run on 93 with very little( harmless) or no detonation at all.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

To the guy that said his 305 saved him "hundreds" in gas. To what do you compare your 305 to that you have come up with hundreds? You probably dont come close to saving hundreds even over the smallest honda 4 banger. People get hysterical about fuel economy without ever actually doing the math for annual expenditure. Displacement alone is not responsible for good or bad mileage and it pretty much is a minor aspect of gas mileage when talking about the same engine family like the SBC.

But related to the topic at hand, in response to the post above, engines have many variables that make some things possible on some setups and some things impossible on others. Heads alone dont determine what the octane to compression ratio tolerance is. To say that would ignore all kinds of things from camshaft profile, to intake manifolds, and exhaust, cooling system efficiency, piston design, vehicle weight and application, area of the country etc etc. 10.7 :1 is generally way too much with iron heads and pump gas. It is certainly possible with a specific combination of parts and expert attention to detail, but for us mere mortals keeping it under ten with iron is probabably a safer bet.

Youll lose some chamber volume anyways on those heads if you clearance the spark plug side of the chamber wall next to the intake valve like you should if you want the kind of flow to support that 350.

zerotosixtyV8

that's ***** talk. You sound like all these little jokers with turbo hondas running mid 14s, and stripping out every power accesory and bit of interior in their vehicle to get it into 14s saying "This is more impressive since it started off running 17s". I'd be like, no, it's pathetic that you had to spend $6000 in your junk FWD car, strip out every bit of amenity that could make for a comfortable ride, power steering and brakes to improve handling, lose fuel economy which is the only reason to buy a Civic, and have a forced induction, wildly unstable motor that wasn't meant to make any power and that blows head gaskets and shatters pistons every time you run it hard, just to run what I can do with a 13 year old car bone stock. Funny thing is most of these jokers don't even work on their cars themselves so they spend another $6000 on labor costs, for a grand total of $12000 in a car that's been stripped to a race only body, running pathetic high 13s-mid-14s and having zero reliability. Come on now. What's impressive is taking a 14 second car, and making it run 11s for $4000. And when it comes down to it, your 13 second 305 is gonna lose to that12 second 350 every time and you'll just be stupid cause for the same money, you could've bought a 350 and given him a challenge

F-BIRD'88

Your 305 S/r's will work fine on your new 350ZZ4.

If you're motivated you can home port them to good effect
your self The bowls need to be opened a blended and the guides nee to be streamlined. You can clean up the rest of the ports and port match the opening to your manifold.
Big enlarging of the port is not nessessary.

These heads respond nicely to porting.

SlowMaro

im slowly but surely building my 305....just because im a firm believer in using what you have....i say the power gain out of anything is the amount of effort you put into it....i mean unles you are shooting for a 400+ hp motor, learn and have fun building a 305 like me....i just wanna see 300 hp and ill be happy....new heads and a intake and 3.7s are the only thing left on my list as of now...

gmgod

Hey 87zcamaro, I'm in Springfield with a stock 87 L98. If Windser is close mabee we could have a freindly comparison.

wyclefsirocz

i have beten many 350's wit my mostly stock 305. all i'm gonna do is edelbrock headers,high flow cat and flowmaster catback so i will be makin about 260hp, oh and a differnet afpr. i don't like mine. along with i'm in the process of portng my whole intake. so when i' all done i should be putting out 275 and low 14s. so i'm happy. then with a 350 for when i blow my 305 up i will be in the low 13s if not 12z

SlowMaro

whoa there....260 hp , mostly stock 305?? that cant be right at all.....what all do yu have on it?? nos? you got to do alot of work to get that sucker to near 300 hp, ..i.e. new heads, ported polished, 750 car b good intake, new cam...--speaking of cam im installing mine as we speak....just dunno how to get the damn timing chain cover back on lmao---

wyclefsirocz

as of right now i have 191.3rwhp and 252.3 rwtq. so i'm making bout 230hp right now using 20% drivetrain loss,
230hp- currently
242hp- headers
250hp- flowmaster catback
252hp- high flow cat
256hp- pulleys
260hp- apfr
upper 260's w/ porting my tpi setup

so that should hive me roughly another 30hp at least.

SlowMaro

ah i see, didnt factor in the rear gear, ...i dunno if that considered *more hp* due to it taking away from the top end....then again you could be talking about something completly different

wyclefsirocz

what do mean rear gear, i do heave 3.43's but that doesn't make more hp, just creates less strain onthe more or quicker revs and faster accelration, ohand my top end isn't still that bad.

SlowMaro

dont know what youre talking about then....thought you ment rear gear, thats why i said that wasnt hp....

wyclefsirocz

oh ok, sry bout the confusion- i was referring to the power loss from my flywheel to my rear wheels. you lose about 16-21% power. more with an auto, so thats why i use 20%.
and you are right rer gears don't change your hp.