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I've toyed with this idea the past few years and have done some reading. I know many opinions out there are to ditch the TBI system if going with forced induction, and the effort to turbo a TBI isn't really worth the gains. On top of that, I'll need to have a significantly better handle at tuning because I can run dangerously lean if improperly tuned.
Despite all that, I'm still motivated to try this out and want to start making a system, so I figured I'd ask some questions and get advice from people here who may have more experience and knowledge on this topic.
My current setup:
350 block with mild cam and vortec heads and edelbrock vortec intake
61# injectors with stock TBI unit (ultimate TBI mods done) (1991 454 TBI with (should be) #74 injectors on it's way)
R'Bob's Dynamic EBL tuning setup
ep381 fuel pump (I believe handles 60-65psi, I read it's good for 450hp)
I have two spare TP38 Turbos from my Bronco's powerstroke motor (I'm only going with one turbo). I did some research and the general consensus is that this turbo is good up to 550whp, and should work decently well on a stock/mild 350. I don't plan on making a tremendous amount of HP, so this should support plenty. I plan on using these older stock manifolds and flipping the driver side upside down and running a pipe from the passenger one around to the driver side, then connecting the two pipes around where the fuel vapor canister is. I'm doing this because I plan on keeping AC, so this seems like the best course of action for pipe routing. I don't plan on running an intercooler.
What I know I'll need:
-Different fuel pressure regulator (advice on this would be nice)
-Blowoff valve
A few questions to get me started:
1. What type of fuel pressure regulator should I go with? I see many pressure regulators out there that are a 1:1 boost reference regulators. So they raise 1 psi per psi of boost. From what I read, I don't think this will be enough. There are fuel management units out there that do anywhere from 4:1 to 12:1, but I don't know how big of a unit I should get if this is the right way to go. From what I've read, a FMU (like the 4:1 https://www.jegs.com/i/Vortech/933/6Z110-115/10002/-1) takes place of a fuel pressure regulator, but the ones I've been looking at don't appear to do that, so would I get a 4:1 unit as well as a different fuel pressure regulator (or keep the stock TBI one in place?) Or will a 1:1 boost reference fuel pressure regulator work?
2. How much boost should I realistically go for with this motor? It's a stock bottom end 2 bolt main 350 from a 99 yukon. I've read that stock 350s can handle 15psi of boost, but other's have said much lower. From my initial reading, I'm thinking I should plan around 6-10psi max, but I want some opinions on this. The boost on my 7.3 Bronco is much different (it goes up to 40), so I don't have a great gauge on what boost I should be aiming for on this gas 350.
3. Will the 61# injectors and modified stock TBI unit be useable with a turbo? I know the 454 injectors would be preferred, as well as the 454 TBI unit, but I'm not necessarily looking at making gobs more horsepower. Obviously the more power I can make, the better, but the less money on parts I have to spend, the better. Also, with a stock transmission and axles, I know I shouldn't be trying to push anything too hard. If my current injectors and TBI can support having a turbo and adding 50+ hp or more, that should get me by for now. Edit: I just ordered a 454 TBI unit with the injectors on it, it's from an 88-91 454, so the stock injectors should be either 74# or 81#, I'll find out when the arrive.
I enjoy doing custom projects and modifying what I have, so I think this will be a fun/rewarding task if I complete it. Obviously, swapping an LS1 etc could yield me tons more power and a better setup, but I don't have access/money for a swap like that and don't want to do a motor swap anytime soon. Having a turbo'd TBI would be different and cool on it's own regards, and I already have a bit of parts lying around to get me started so I figured I'd go ahead and go for it. My 305 I pulled from the camaro is almost a fully assembled engine. I have a spare TBI unit and wiring harness, so I figured I could do a mock build on the 305, do a test fire with this motor, and then throw the setup onto my 350 if things seem promising.
305 that came out of the camaro! Parts I have lying around!
So those are my thoughts and questions! Any input and direction would be appreciated!
Last edited by Bubbajones_ya; 09-30-2019 at 10:38 PM.
Reason: New parts to add
The biggest problem with the TBI is it only has two injectors. 61lbs x 2 = 122 lbs/hour. A stock 305 TPI has 19lbs x 8 = 152lbs/hour. And we know 19lbs injectors are good for about 325-350 HP.
You need something with more injectors, at least 4, but preferably ditch the TBI and go with 8 and MPFI. Sorry.
The biggest problem with the TBI is it only has two injectors. 61lbs x 2 = 122 lbs/hour. A stock 305 TPI has 19lbs x 8 = 152lbs/hour. And we know 19lbs injectors are good for about 325-350 HP.
You need something with more injectors, at least 4, but preferably ditch the TBI and go with 8 and MPFI. Sorry.
I do appreciate your input and I know the fuel flow rate of TBI's isn't the greatest, and a MPFI would be much easier to turbo for sure. With the setup I have now, I don't believe I will switch to a MPFI unless I do an LS motor swap far far down the road (because getting a setup like that would probably run me 500+ at least and I'd have to ditch my EBL and other components I have that are fairly new). I've read a few things where people were successful in boosting a TBI setup. I believe Fast355 supercharged a 350 TBI successfully with 90# injectors, so I may look at getting that size injector. I was about to purchase a 454 TBI unit with 75# injectors on ebay, but apparently the seller doesn't ship to Wyoming.
I understand that a TBI isn't the greatest candidate for boosting compared to MPFI setups, but I have a lot of components to start this project already laying around, and think it would be pretty fun to tackle, as long as there is some benefit to the work I do (50+ hp). It seems like my 61# injectors may not cut it, so I'll try to at least get 75# injectors or higher.
Well I just went and ordered a 454 TBI unit with the injectors from an 88-91 454, so the injectors should be the 74# or 81#, not the 46# ones that come on the 95-96 454s.
The next biggest thing I should need is a better fuel management setup. I've read about this: https://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/13301/10002/-1 fuel pressure regulator with a 1:1 raise in psi per pound of boost. That doesn't seem like it will be quite enough though. However, I don't know enough about FMUs and if they are in addition to fuel pressure regulators or their own separate thing. I haven't been able to find a good link on a FMU, so I may go ahead with the Aeromotive FPR unless someone has any other ideas.
I do appreciate your input and I know the fuel flow rate of TBI's isn't the greatest, and a MPFI would be much easier to turbo for sure. With the setup I have now, I don't believe I will switch to a MPFI unless I do an LS motor swap far far down the road (because getting a setup like that would probably run me 500+ at least and I'd have to ditch my EBL and other components I have that are fairly new). I've read a few things where people were successful in boosting a TBI setup. I believe Fast355 supercharged a 350 TBI successfully with 90# injectors, so I may look at getting that size injector. I was about to purchase a 454 TBI unit with 75# injectors on ebay, but apparently the seller doesn't ship to Wyoming.
I understand that a TBI isn't the greatest candidate for boosting compared to MPFI setups, but I have a lot of components to start this project already laying around, and think it would be pretty fun to tackle, as long as there is some benefit to the work I do (50+ hp). It seems like my 61# injectors may not cut it, so I'll try to at least get 75# injectors or higher.
61# injectors at 50 psi fuel pressure at 10 psi boost with a Weiand 177.
so the injectors should be the 74# or 81#, not the 46# ones that come on the 95-96 454s.
they were same 80 lbs or so injectors in 95, just rated at higher fuel pressure. I tuned a tbi 454 3500 truck and stock tune file says 80 lbs hr but those trucks used 30 psi fuel pressure i believe instead of 12-15? I cant remember tho
regardless fueling is going to be your limitation. Few pounds of boost possible. Not sure if they make 2 bar map based tune files for those. You will have to see. That be my main concern
61# injectors at 50 psi fuel pressure at 10 psi boost with a Weiand 177.
Dang okay. I think I've come across some post where people say supercharging is easier than turboing a TBI. I'm not really sure what the reasoning behind it is but if you have that working than I think I can get 6-10lbs boost with my setup eventually.
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
they were same 80 lbs or so injectors in 95, just rated at higher fuel pressure. I tuned a tbi 454 3500 truck and stock tune file says 80 lbs hr but those trucks used 30 psi fuel pressure i believe instead of 12-15? I cant remember tho
regardless fueling is going to be your limitation. Few pounds of boost possible. Not sure if they make 2 bar map based tune files for those. You will have to see. That be my main concern
Oh okay, I read somewhere (yeah I do a bit of forum reading, it's hard to sift out facts with opinions sometimes!) that the 94 and 95 had 46# injectors, but they ran at 30psi so they sprayed equivalent to 74# injectors at 13psi, but as long as the injectors I ordered are 74# or more, I think I'll be a little better off. As for the 2 bar map based bine file, I don't think that's going to be readily available for me. I know R'Bob's EBL setup will allow me to tune for a 2 bar map sensor, but I'll have quite a bit of researching and messing around to get something working decently I'd imagine.
As of now, it looks like my next step is getting a good fuel pressure regulator/FMU (not quite sure which direction to take for this yet) and a carb style boost hat. Then I'll need to fab up the piping as well as get a blowoff valve and I should be able to start testing this setup!
I'm not really sure what the reasoning behind it is but if you have that working than I think I can get 6-10lbs boost with my setup eventually.
OK, just install a 2-bar MAP sensor. It won't plug directly into the 1-bar connector, but either the MAP sensor or the connector can be modified to do so. Can install the 2-bar MAP now and just set the option flag for it in the BIN:
Option Word 2 - Bit 3 - 2-Bar
I know R'Bob's EBL setup will allow me to tune for a 2 bar map sensor, but I'll have quite a bit of researching and messing around to get something working decently I'd imagine.
Yes, there is a spark retard table and a fuel multiplier table for when in boost.
As of now, it looks like my next step is getting a good fuel pressure regulator/FMU (not quite sure which direction to take for this yet) and a carb style boost hat. Then I'll need to fab up the piping as well as get a blowoff valve and I should be able to start testing this setup!
Skip the FMU, not needed. With the external FPR plumb the vacuum/pressure line to the plenum under the TBI unit. With 74 #/hr injectors can support a bunch of HP by increasing the fuel pressure.
Play with the EBL Utility to get an idea of how much fuel pressure is required. With a carb hat the pressure needs to rise 1:1, which with proper plumbing of the FPR vac/pressure port will do this.
Yeah if you run ebl and can do 2 bar thats the way to go. I’ve used the ebl on a procharged car with tpi and worked great. If base fuel is set right the boost adder is easy to use
OK, just install a 2-bar MAP sensor. It won't plug directly into the 1-bar connector, but either the MAP sensor or the connector can be modified to do so. Can install the 2-bar MAP now and just set the option flag for it in the BIN:
Option Word 2 - Bit 3 - 2-Bar
Yes, there is a spark retard table and a fuel multiplier table for when in boost.
Skip the FMU, not needed. With the external FPR plumb the vacuum/pressure line to the plenum under the TBI unit. With 74 #/hr injectors can support a bunch of HP by increasing the fuel pressure.
Play with the EBL Utility to get an idea of how much fuel pressure is required. With a carb hat the pressure needs to rise 1:1, which with proper plumbing of the FPR vac/pressure port will do this.
RBob.
Awesome! Thank you for the info. I have the 2 bar map sensor on the way, as well as some of the other components. I'll just need to order the 1:1 external fuel pressure regulator and I'll have most of what I need.
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
Yeah if you run ebl and can do 2 bar thats the way to go. I’ve used the ebl on a procharged car with tpi and worked great. If base fuel is set right the boost adder is easy to use
That's good to know. R'Bob's EBL utility has been super useful. I haven't put enough time into learning how to tune with it, but I"ve gotten help here in the past, and I'll be spending a lot of time tuning with it in the near future.
Whew it's surprising how much everything adds up, but I'm too far in it now and this is been something I've been wanting to do for quite some time.
I should have everything I need now (at least on it's way) besides additional piping/clamps, fuel lines/oil lines, and auxiliary gauges now. I have the turbo, stock manifolds I'm going to flip around, the 454 TBI with 80ph injectors (5235231 - Red / Blue), a wastegate, flange adapters, blowoff valve, 1:1 FPR, 2 bar map, EBL.
It's still going to be a little ways off obviously because I'll need to fabricate the piping up, and make some oil feed lines and new fuel lines, but I'm getting close.
Can anybody help me with modifying the TBI for boost? I've read you need to pressurize the throttle shaft by drilling holes through where the throttle shaft rides, and attach a vacuum/boost line to where the holes are drilled. I'm a little unsure where to drill the holes however and would like some guidance or pictures if anyone has any.
Do I drill holes from the top/bottom to get reference (like picture 1, and if so, at the red circle, or orange circle, or all 3?)
Or, do I drill holes through the sides (like picture 2?)
Or do i drill them somewhere else? I can't seem to find a picture reference of someone who has done it, so I don't want to start on this until I know for sure where to drill. I did manage to find a 454 TBI at the local junkyard after purchasing one on ebay for over 200, so if I do mess this one up I have access to another one for about 40 bucks, but I'd rather not mess it up!
Hey thanks RBob, you've been super helpful over the years and your EBL system has been awesome for my car!
So just to make sure I'm getting this right, I should drill holes on the outside of the TBI unit to the throttle shaft, probably JB weld in some small vacuum nipples, then route those hoses to the intake tubing before the injectors?
Here is a crude drawing of how I understand it to be:
I'd want to drill on the outside of both sides of the TBI unit, so I'd have two vacuum lines going somewhere to the intake piping before the injectors correct?
Thinking about this and looking at a TBI unit. See your picture above of the bottom of the TBI. Drill holes where the orange circles are, no need for the center support to be drilled.
Then drill matching holes and feeds into the intake manifold to TBI unit adapter plate. This way the pressurized air can be fed into the adapter plate and on to the TBI shaft locations. As for getting the pressurized air, any place after the turbo and prior to the injectors works.
Thinking about this and looking at a TBI unit. See your picture above of the bottom of the TBI. Drill holes where the orange circles are, no need for the center support to be drilled.
Then drill matching holes and feeds into the intake manifold to TBI unit adapter plate. This way the pressurized air can be fed into the adapter plate and on to the TBI shaft locations. As for getting the pressurized air, any place after the turbo and prior to the injectors works.
RBob.
I didn't even think of that, that's a good idea! Currently, I have the Edelbrock vortec to carb intake manifold and there's a chance the intake ports may be too big and not match up correctly. I'm using a carb to TBI adapter on the manifold (which I'll have to bore out bigger holes to fit the 454 TBI unit.) The adapter plate is probably too small for holes from the side as well because it's only about 1/4" thick. However, I do have a spacer I had to take off (since it wouldn't fit with the new manifold) that will probably fit with the carb hat. If it does fit, I'll just drill holes in that!
It's been a little while but I have made some more progress.
I managed to get the 454 TBI all back together with the 80lb injectors and drilled for boost reference. I had to purchased a 454 TBI spacer so I could route the vacuum/boost reference lines through that due to my edelbrock vortec intake not lining up properly to drill boost lines down. I still need to attach different electrical connectors for the TPS and IAC valve, but that shouldn't be too hard. I have the connectors, I just have to get the proper wiring before connecting everything.
I ended up gorilla glueing some vacuum lines into holes I drilled on the side of the spacer since I don't have a good way to weld aluminum. I tried using JB water weld (since it's what I had on hand), but I think I messed with it too soon and broke the connectors off. The gorrila glue seems to be holding up decently though so it should do the trick.
I managed to work on the oil return fitting today. I wanted to take off the oil pan, but I couldn't get the motor lifted higher enough without taking off the transmission and exhaust, so I just left the motor hanging and worked with the pan disconnected under the motor. The oil return kit I bought came with an aluminum fitting to weld to the pan instead of steel, so I had no way of using that. I just took a 10AN fitting I had sitting around, drilled and tapped a hole, then cut the threaded portion of the fitting down to make sure it wouldn't interfere with anything inside the oil pan. Once that was done, I threaded in the fitting while applying normal JB weld to the threads and tightened that in there. I made sure to shover JB weld around the edge of the fitting too so hopefully I won't get any leaks. Once things seem good, I'll try and do a quick re-spray of the oil pan since I used carb cleaner which messed up the paint on the pan..
I was originally going to try and route the exhaust inlet for the turbo up and around the driver side to the turbo using the stock exhaust manifolds I picked up, then have the intake from the turbo to the throttle body route around the shock mount kinda like this:
However, I might want to try and keep the ceramic coated hooker headers I have on. I don't know if this really is the best idea, but it would be significantly easier for routing/welding/piping if I kept the hooker headers, and routed the exhaust forward, under the subframe, towards the underneath of the turbo (where the stock vacuum reservoir is.)
I did some measuring and it seems like I can cut and come right out of the y-pipe near the driver side control arm/subframe and bring the exhaust forward towards the driver side headlight area where the vacuum reservoir is. Even if I used 3" piping, it would break the plane of the ground effects and seems like it would be decently high off the ground, despite being on the front end. I think I would go from 2.5" off the y-pipe, then to 3" at the turbo connector (since that's the size flange I bought) so that should give me a little more room.
I figure it would be nicer to have my ceramic headers than the smaller stock manifolds. I did some reading and it seems like cast manifolds are pretty good at keeping in heat compared to headers, but since my headers are ceramic coated, I don't think there would be a big difference. Also, it think the better flow to the turbo would help as well.
That's good on the piping size. I'll probably stick with 2.5" inch a little before the flange (then use my flex pipe and bolt to the flange). I was doing some reading and it almost seems like it would be better to go down to 2.5" or even 2.25" rather than 3".
I do have a lot of 2.25" pipe I bought when I was going to mock up my own y-pipe, but I'm going to re-use the hooker y-pipe and alter that for the turbo instead. I believe the crossover section on the hooker y-pipe is 2.5" which collects to a 3" normally. It would be a little weird cutting out the 3" collector on the hooker pipe, then downsize to a 2.25" "collector" to go to the turbo. However, it some people have said the 2.25" pipe helps the air velocity for the turbo which may be a good thing for the RPMs I'd like to build boost at. I'm wanting to stay in the 5000-5500 RPM range now, so I don't want to build boost too late.
On a different note, I was able to get my gauges mostly installed. They are snug, but not fully secured in the gauge pod. I have to figure out a way to get them to stay snug since the pod I purchased doesn't have a way to actually fasten the gauges down. I may just use some black RTV on the back/lip (it should blend in with the pod and be mostly hidden on the back) so that I can remove them later if needed instead of trying to glue them or something. I haven't booted up EBL yet to check (I need to charge my laptop and the car battery too), but I hooked up my wideband to the EBL Flash computer as well as tapped into the fuel pressure gauge harness to hook up to the EBL too.
Obviously the wideband sensor isn't in yet since I don't have the piping made, but the sensor plug wires are about where I plan on routing the exhaust so I'll just have to plug it in. I also have to make a vacuum port off my intake hat for the boost reference (which is needed for the gauge and blow off valve). Wiring up these gauges took significantly longer than I thought it would... It didn't help that my steering column pivot pin fell out and disappeared when taking off the dash top, which ended up disconnecting the ignition switch rod mechanism so I couldn't turn the power on. I have to pull down on my steering wheel to align the mechanism until the replacement pivot pins come in.
Now that this is done, I just need to splice in the new IAC valve and TPS sensor, and mock up the piping/mount the turbo! Then I should be able to get it started for tuning hopefully! I'm being overly optimistic, but I'm thinking it's possible I'll have the piping made by this weekend, but if not, then at least over Thanksgiving weekend!
I used 2.25 factory piping on my rear mount 305 tpi car. Spooled very quickly when the cat was still on the car lol. Once i gutted it the spool went away and i had to delete cat all together with a straight section of pipe and go down on turbine housing ar size to get it back. echaust wrap would have helped more
single T70 with p trim turbine. 500 hp worth of turbo easily and it was spooling in the 2000’s rpm at first. Having it up front near engine with hotter gases, it would have lit instantly. 2.5 could have worked well there
Well I got my TPS and IAC pigtails wired up today and I went to see if I could get the car idling with the new throttle body/injectors installed. It turns out one of the injectors that came with my 454 throttle body isn't spraying.... I ended up ordering some replacement injectors off amazon (part number TJ11 which should be 80lb injectors) so at least I know I'll have good injectors now.
I'll try messing with the tune tonight (adjusting BPC values) just to help set things up better, and I should be able to start working on cutting/welding pipes tomorrow after I make the oil feed/drain lines for the turbo!
I got some welding done today. You can tell I don't know how to weld, but the welds seem pretty strong to me. I shined a flashlight on both ends of the welds in a dark room to see if any light came through and kept patching up up sections that did until there was no light. I'm probably going to run JB weld around my crappy ground down welds just to smooth things out a bit and guarantee there aren't any holes. I'll then use rattle can high temp paint (because no one in Cheyenne WY does ceramic coating and I can't afford that now either).
So after going almost all the way through a bottle of 75/25 Argon/C02 for my welder, I realized I had the polarity of the welder switched (as in set up for flux core wire)...... It seems to be coming out much better with the wires hooked up how they're supposed to be..... I'm going to try and get another bottle of gas now.
The other thing is to wire brush the pipes to get the rust off. Can also wire brush the insides to get the carbon out. Both will interfere with welding.
I purchased a wire scraper to help scrape off the rust. I've tried welding right over dirty metal before (flux core) and it was almost useless!
Switching the polarity made a gigantic difference... I'm glad I remembered about it before getting more gas. I suppose it is a good learning experience. I also think I didn't have the regulator tightened well enough last time because I went through almost a whole bottle of gas on 4 sections of welding, and I'm not even 1/4 the way through my bottle now with more welds than I had last time.
Here is what the completed Y-pipe looks like:
It's not super pretty by any means, but it fits up well. I just hope I didn't make it hang down too low in the front. I think it should be fine though. I'm going to try and scrape up the whole pipe after I know the car is running and hit it with some super high temp spray paint just to help prevent any rusting.
Here is the adapter piece at the end of the y that bolts to the turbo flange adapter (which is welded onto the car and where the blowoff valve bolts to):
Here is what some of my welds came out looking like now that I have things set up better:
Not all of them were this pretty, but they were exponentially better than before. When I was tacking pipes from under the car (with everything partially bolted up for fitment), it was pretty hard to get good welds, but they still were better than before.
I now just have to make the downpipe with the o2 bungs, install my replacement injectors, and start trying to tune it!
Well I have all the piping done. I was planning on grinding/prettying up my welds (especially the ones I had the welder hooked up reversed) but it was taking a while, and it's not like anyone will ever really see them. I put some VHT "flameproof" ceramic spray paint on the pipes to hopefully prevent any rusting. I don't have a good way to cure the paint so I'm hoping curing it on the car works fine.
The downpipe is awfully close to the side turn signal light, so I'm hoping ( lots of hoping going on here) that the radiant heat doesn't destroy it or the connector. I don't know if they make glass side turn signals because if they do, I'll probably want to get one of those.
I still haven't gotten it started yet but I'm close! I went to try and crank it over without the exhaust hooked up but it wouldn't start. I'm guessing part of the reason is the distributor may be out of time a bit when I removed and replaced it to jack the motor up. I did notice my TPS readings were all wrong on the EBL WUD so I finally fixed that. I had everything soldered to the connector, so I had to make a pin removal tool out of heatshrink. It actually worked really well, and I was able to re-pin everything and get proper readings for the TPS. At first, it was reading reverse (started at 50 and went down to 0 with throttle), I then swapped pins and it was reading from 20 (or 2 volts) to 80ish (or like 3.5 volts). I did some readings on these forums and conclude that the wires were still mixed up, so I swapped pins again and now it reads correctly!
I'm going to mess with the distributor and hope I can get it started. If it starts, then I'm going to boot up the exhaust to the turbo! I already uploaded a new bin for the 2 bar map and also to adjust the fuel since I have new injectors, but without the vehicle running, I'm having a hard time getting a fuel pressure reading. I don't believe the aeromotive 13301 regulator stays pressurized unless the vehicle is running.
Well I was a little optimistic of my oil drain line setup but knew it probably wasn't going to cut it... I'm going to have to run a sump/pump setup because the turbo location is a little too low for a good return angle and my turbo was smoking quite a bit. Even if the angle was good, the line was a little sketchy where I drill through the frame.
The supply line comes from the back top of the motor near the distributor with a 4an line and the fitting on the turbo is restricted. The return line is 10an, goes to a 45 degree angle but then quickly goes to about a 10 degrees angle to the pan for like two feet. I don't have any other way to route the hose without a sump setup. I'm going to do a quick test with the hose aiming in a jug to see if it stops smoking.
Here are some pictures for now though!
If anyone has any good ideas for pumps/sump (on the budget side) I'd like to hear it! Unfortunately, I think I stated earlier that my daily driver F150 blew a head gasket, then my Bronco's driveshaft broke. I fixed the driveshaft but then the axle tube cracked (or an old crack I missed for pretty big). So basically I'm a little low on funds and out three vehicles... I'll get things working though. I'm excited about the turbo on this, I just need it to stop smoking so I can start tuning!
Unfortunately the only ones i have good success with so far are turbowerx exas but they are pricey. Some say tilton makes some decent ones under 250$ tho
Unfortunately the only ones i have good success with so far are turbowerx exas but they are pricey. Some say tilton makes some decent ones under 250$ tho
Dang.. Yeah I've been looking at some on amazon around the 60ish dollar mark... I can't expect them to be great, but maybe they can get me by for a year or so until I can save up for a better pump. I read someone put a harbor freight pump in and it worked for them for a while.... but that may just be a total waste of money. I'm trying to find a good oil reservoir to drain into, but everything that keeps coming up is a catch can, which I think would hinder the oil flow (due to the baffling etc.) in them, and the outlet of the catch cans is at the top as well. I may just purchase one, then try and removing any baffling and tap into the bottom of them for outlet hose to the pump.
I did see about 1psi of boost when in idle though! This was after putting on a hose and draining into a gallon jug. That did clear the smoke so it definitely is the drain line. My vacuum is only around 5 or so at idle though (at about 6000ft elevation I think), so I'm wondering if I have a vacuum leak or something. I can't really test the turbo though when the oil is filling the gallon jug. I don't want to rev the engine up, then have to shut it off right away...
May need to fab something. Simple round pipe capped off on both ends with a bung for inlet feed and a bung for outlet fitting. I’m in the process of doing mine, i tried to get away with a small 1/2” drain on my twins Tee’d into the exa pump but its leaking oil out the turbine side and did smoke some. So gonna try drain pot and maybe vent it so it drains more freely. Else i gotta try larger line.
Apparently a few people are using it for this application and haven't had any problems. I think I'll try and save up for a good pump, but this should hopefully last me a year or so. As for the reservoir, I am going to get this:
(the 3x9 one) and because it's steel, I can weld different fittings on as needed, or just drill/tap different fittings and weld the other lines closed (since those are way too small.)
I'm not sure if this is needed or would be a good idea, but I was thinking of having a float switch in this tank, so the pump only turns on when the tank is near full. I'm a little worried that a float switch in here may be switching the pump on and off too frequently though, which I'm not sure if that's better or worse than having the pump run continuously. It was only 7 bucks for the switch which is meant for high temps and can handle oil, so I ordered it anyways.
Edit:
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
May need to fab something. Simple round pipe capped off on both ends with a bung for inlet feed and a bung for outlet fitting. I’m in the process of doing mine, i tried to get away with a small 1/2” drain on my twins Tee’d into the exa pump but its leaking oil out the turbine side and did smoke some. So gonna try drain pot and maybe vent it so it drains more freely. Else i gotta try larger line.
Yeah the tank I just ordered will have to be fabbed slightly, but I figure it will be easier than me trying to find something to fab up from scratch. I'm not sure how fast it's going to fill the container, but it seemed to be filling the gallon jug faster than I anticipated.
Twin turbos would have been pretty cool, but I would have had to get rid of AC if I went that route and I also don't know how much boost my stock 350 will handle! Hopefully I can get this oil sump setup this week and start testing this out.
Last edited by Bubbajones_ya; 12-01-2019 at 06:24 PM.
I got my pump in today so I should be able to get this up and running soon! Once I get the sump/pump installed for the oil drain, I just have to weld one more section of pipe (the start of the exhaust after the downpipe so the wideband sensor isn't too close to open air.)
My Bronco's axle cracked on me and I had to swap gears between axles, so I finally finished that, I'm just having a hard time fully bleeding the brakes. It's driveable though so I don't have to worry too much about it now and I cna put some more time back into this!
Well I finally got it up and running! I definitely need to tune quite a bit however. My tune for the 350 was only good enough to drive it, but it wasn't very good at all. I had a lot of rough spots where it had no power (mainly when cruising at highway speeds), so I still need to tune that out.
I probably have a boost leak, but also think my tuning is pretty awful and needs work. I was able to get up to about 4psi of boost though! It's definitely quite faster with the turbo that's for sure, but the tune is a far ways away from being acceptable.
I'm not sure if it's a vacuum leak, but my vacuum gauge reads only about 1lb of vacuum at idle, but as soon as I give it light throttle, it drops to around 10-15 range. I don't know if the cam has anything to do with that either, but that doesn't seem right to me. Also, the car wants to idle around 1600 or 2300ish (as in it will sit at 1600 sometimes, and other times sit around 2200).
As for my wideband readings, it's running too lean, so I have to figure how to change that up. My exhaust burns the eyes pretty bad which I thought was an indication of running rich, but my WB readings are reading more on the lean side. When I was datalogging, my laptop died. Unfortunately, my laptop can't keep a charge so I can't datalog for too long before the laptop wants to die.
Anyways, I'll try and post a video of it up once I smooth out the tune a little bit!
Well my ignition rack is coming unhooked from the rod which is cool. I managed to find a way to make it work though, but I'll probably need a replacement steering column soon.....
I have a lot to look into for tuning! I'm hoping my IAC sensor was hooked up correctly with the 454 TBI swap (I had to swap wiring pigtails). My car idles way too high, but the IAC steps on the EBL WUD are in the 100s... when I shut my car off, it was a 149. I'll try and do some research on that and see if I can get that fixed.
I also tried doing some VE learns, but it never went into the learn mode. I had the CTS set a little lower to start VE learning (because my car was only getting about 165 degrees), and I had the car forced in open loop. The WUD indicates it should be reading from my WB sensor (and it's selected in the ADC channels, but it never went into learning. I think I'll try and figure out the IAC steps situation first which will hopefully fix my incredibly high idle. Once that's done, I'll see if I can get this VE learn working.
Edit: Actually my idle steps are at 0 with the car on and idling, the WUD shows 143 after I shut the car off. I read somewhere that this means I have a vacuum leak.
I'm not exactly sure where to test for the leak. besides around the throttle body itself and the ports off the throttle body. I already unplugged some lines and capped them with no difference. I wish there was an easier way to find a leak!
Another side note, my AEM wideband gauge reads less than the WUD of the WB. It's about 1 to 2 whole numbers off. I'm not sure if I need to try and calibrate it somehow through the EBL to match the gauge, or if something else is going on.
Edit 2: Well I ended up jumping pins A&B on the ALDL connector and turned the key on/engine off. I did this with the IAC valve unbolted from the TB but still plugged in (just dangling in the engine bay with a plastic bag over it). It turns out the pintle wanted to move inwards, which I believe is "open", which is the opposite of what it should do based on what I read. So that means I have my IAC valve pigtail wired in incorrectly. I'll do a little more research and see if I can get this working right. I hope I can just unpin the connector instead of cutting and splicing wires because I like to solder everything, and it's getting to be a pain soldering so much......
Edit 3: Well I switched around the A&B pins on the IAC valve and the idle seems great now! I switched to open loop idle in the option bits in TunerPro, and have it forced open loop normally (CTS temp for closed loop set very high) as well so that I can use the WB sensor for VE learns.
My vacuum gauge still reads only about 1 unless I hit the throttle, which bumps it "down" to the 11 ish mark. I'm not sure if that indicates a vacuum leak or not or if it has something to do with my elgin 1136 cam. It is a little frustrating because my fuel pressure regulator is vacuum/boost referenced, so if lowers fuel pressure when I hit the throttle under light load.
I also enable VE learn just to test and it did manage to edit one block! It didn't edit anything else, but I was only in neutral revving a holding for a small amount. I'm not sure if there is something else going on that's preventing the VE learn from happening, but I'll mess around more and see what I can find.
Last edited by Bubbajones_ya; 12-13-2019 at 04:41 PM.
I figure I edited my last post enough. I know no-one is really following this too closely but I'll keep posting for my own records or if other people happen to read this thread in the future!
As for my vacuum issue, I think i found what the problem is. I currently removed my charcoal canister (due to that's where I put the turbo) and stole it's vacuum connection for my vacuum gauge AND my fuel pressure regulator. I think that vacuum line may be ported vacuum, so that it will only see vacuum when throttle is applied.
So, I have to tee off another vacuum port because that's not a good place to read my vacuum and especially not a good location for a fuel pressure regulator (since it lowers fuel pressure initially as soon as I give it throttle).
I'll post back to see what I find! I think tuning will be a lot easier if I can do it that way. Unless I can find some more information, I don't think I can use the EBL VE learning unfortunately because it doesn't appear to want to update any fields except a small few right on idle. Maybe this has to do with the fuel pressure regulator being hooked up to the incorrect vacuum port, but I'm not too sure.
As for my vacuum issue, I think i found what the problem is. I currently removed my charcoal canister (due to that's where I put the turbo) and stole it's vacuum connection for my vacuum gauge AND my fuel pressure regulator. I think that vacuum line may be ported vacuum, so that it will only see vacuum when throttle is applied.
CCP is on ported vacuum.
I don't think I can use the EBL VE learning unfortunately because it doesn't appear to want to update any fields except a small few right on idle. Maybe this has to do with the fuel pressure regulator being hooked up to the incorrect vacuum port, but I'm not too sure.
The VE Learn works, most important is to hold a steady throttle position. If the TPS or MAP is moving around the learn stops for a short period. As AE and DE will change the fueling.
The VE Learn works, most important is to hold a steady throttle position. If the TPS or MAP is moving around the learn stops for a short period. As AE and DE will change the fueling.
RBob.
Thanks RBob, you've always been super helpful for issues I've had on these forums! Yeah I did more reading and found that the CCP was ported vacuum. It snowed here last night so I haven't messed with anything yet but that's going to be the first thing I change.
As for the VE learning, it always worked great with my NB sensor, but I still have that hooked in the default space on the headers (so it's in-between the headers and turbo), but my WB is about 14" from the turbo down-pipe. I haven't read much about VE learns with a changing fuel pressure regulator so I was thinking because I put that in, as well as my vacuum situation with that, that is wasn't going to work. I do have the WB set up right, and I got 4 blocks to update with it, but they stayed at 0.
Maybe I'll have better luck once I swap the fuel pressure regulator around to standard vacuum! It's possible that I've been too concentrated on the fuel pressure surging a bunch due to the vacuum line being ported that I've been moving the throttle too much, not allowing the VE learn to do it's thing. Either way, I'm still love the EBL computer (even if I can't get the VE learn to work right by something I'm doing wrong)!
I didn't realize the EBL computer could work for TPI systems. Maybe in the future, I'll save up for a TPI setup and send my computer in to get the port mod, but I'll learn with this first!
It's been a while since posting but I have done some work. My computer failed and other things happened so I didn't update much on the forums.
I had a pretty bad boost leak with the stock exhaust manifold gaskets I used under my hooker 2055 headers. I ended up buying some fancy copper gaskets and they were much worse (the port shape was too large). So I bought some Mr. Gasket round port aluminum crush gaskets and those did the trick! Boost seems to start building around 3k +/- 200rpm depending on throttle. My tune is still super far off, so I think I could build boost closer to 2500 if my fueling and stuff is right. The vacuum/boost referenced fpr is going to make tuning for fueling a little tricky, but I should be able to get a hang of it. At lowish rpm and low/moderate throttle, my car runs super lean. However, if I give it a heavier throttle, the vacuum drops so the fuel pressure rises, and it runs pretty good to a little rich.
The eBay waste-gate I bought said it had a 8lb spring, but it was opening up around 4-5lbs. I added a small vacuum tee in-line with the wastegate to bleed off pressure and it now boost up to 7psi before opening. I would like to see if I can get it to be around 10-12 once things are all said and done. I'm not sure what these blocks can handle but I don't want to push it too much on a stock block.
The turbo definitely makes a big difference, 7psi feels pretty good and can break the tires loose at 30mph. My tune is still super awful, so I'm not being too ridiculous, and I feel like it could get much better with a tune, but it's much faster than it's ever been that's for sure.
10 aint much just be careful and get your fuel right first. I almost would leave it at 4-5 psi til its looking good before bumping up. Go conservative on timing til you find fuel and then sneak up on it
Yeah I'll try and get some tuning done this weekend or the following weekend. I want to order a cheap tablet I can leave hooked up and mounted under the dash so I always have something to tune with in there.
Hey, this is Jade I'm 17 and working on a very similar project. Thanks for documenting your turbo install!
I've got a 92 Camaro 350 TBI that I installed a gt45 turbo in. I used an inline pump along with a FMU and AFR gauge to give the engine proper fueling. I think I got lucky cause it runs super well and I haven't needed to touch the ecm or do any electronic tuning. Right now I have it at 7psi of boost and can feel that it's much quicker. So far I've spent about $800 on my tubo install and I did all the exhaust welding at my high school shop.
I plan on increasing the boost to 15psi. But before that, I think I need to retard timing? From what I've seen in forums blow through carb engine timing can be retarded using a boost reference timing box. But I think the TBI system has full control over the timing. I haven't found much info on how to retard TBI timing with boost reference so I was wondering what worked for you? Also if you know of any really affordable options that would be great.
I had the tunable ECM from DynamicEFI that I used for tuning. When I purchased it, it was about 400 bucks with the option to include an ECM, but I think it's now around 500 or so, or 450 without the ECM.
This system worked great with TunerPro for me to adjust the tune, but I was never very good at the tuning and didn't have much time to make adjustments. I was getting out of the Air Force, moving from WY back to AZ, and doing house renovations (both when station in Cheyenne and when I got back to AZ) so I never really perfected the tune. I had it set to about 5psi and it felt pretty great, but still needed some adjustments for sure. I never had a problem with fueling, I actually ran rich more often than not so I needed to adjust the tuning some more for sure.
The sad thing is, while I never thought I'd sell my Camaro, I came across an opportunity I couldn't turn down. My wife let me get a 98 Viper GTS (my dream car) if I got rid of the Camaro, so I sold the Camaro to one of my best friends so I could buy the Viper. We are actually in the process of removing my turbo setup so he can set things closer to stock (so he can use low grade fuel and get slightly better mileage), then he later wants to put in an LS motor. It pains me slightly to remove the turbo, but it's no longer my car and I get that not needing to use premium would be nice.
I can try to answer any questions you have, but since I no longer have the car, I'm not as familiar with it.
Edit: That's a nice setup you have there too. I didn't want to get rid of the AC being that we knew we were moving back to AZ and I wanted to keep the Hooker Headers I had so I had to alter the Y-pipe and do some custom exhaust to route it back and around.
Last edited by Bubbajones_ya; 08-25-2023 at 10:24 PM.
Thanks dude!
I checked out the DynamicEfi and it definitely looks like the proper way to go in terms of tuning this thing. I read you can even add a second map sensor that is boost-compatible.
Unfortunately, I do not have the funds for that at the moment. I think I'm gonna try installing a DIY meth/water injection cause I need to cool the intake air anyways. My hope is that the stock overly safe timing + added knock resistance from the meth injection and premium fuel will be enough to not knock at 15psi. I'm probably being too hopeful lol. I'll make sure to use an OBD1 scanner to see if the knock sensor picks up on anything. And if that doesn't work then I'll just keep the boost low until I can purchase a tunable ecm.
For gas mileage, I actually found that I get better highway mpgs. I did a 200-mile drive before and after the turbo on the same route. Before I got 19mpgs and now it's 22. But city mileage is definitely much worse with the turbo.
The AC wasn't functional when I bought the car last year and pieces were missing so it just made sense to take to out. And I'm glad I did cause it made the exhaust so much easier to route.
One question I have right now is if you know of any ways to add a rev limiter for cheap? I think my engine is from an early 90s truck which didn't have limitors. I sometimes drift it at my local track and have seen the rpms near 7k, kinda scary. I know there's probably a way to add one with the tunable ecm or if I change the ignition system out to MSD but both those options are $400+
09-29-2019, 02:16 PM
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0742CKVRJ/ref=ox_sc_mini_detail?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1UZWFGS7HOOGB (the 3x9 one) and because it's steel, I can weld different fittings on as needed, or just drill/tap different fittings and weld the other lines closed (since those are way too small.)
