snflupigus

So the story goes like this:

A long long time ago in a galaxy right the F here.... I started to get into Chip tuning. I bought myself a pocket programmer and UV eraser and some spare chips... bought Tunercat (like version .9) and used some dos based stuff to burn my chips. This was back before the famous antagonist Pablo Morales bailed and went carb! LOL Pablo, if you're out there. chime in jerky, and hope all is well with you fighting for our country

All I was really able to do was change up my torque converter settings and mess with my spark tables back then without totally screwing things up with how the engine ran.

I tried tuning a friends highly modified 350 truck with some rough results modifying fuel maps and he was happy but the thing still lagged like an SOB and I only had 2 days to play with that one...

So, I decided, this, so-called technology I'd purchased wasn’t going to get me any results, as my car was stock anyway so what the hell was I trying to do...? I knew I would be looking at HOURS AND HOURS of time after modifying the car retuning it. So I quit... quit modifying the Camaro. I bought a 91 Z71, (tbi), threw cam in it, didn’t need tuned ran GREAT and then I got "ebay'd" into buying a Porsche Speedster Replica and enjoyed that thing for a while as the camaro sat dying.

Sold the Camaro 2 and a half years ago...

Bought AZVOLFAN's purple camaro a year ago last month... drove it as it was with Jon Prevost's chip.

Then I decided, damn it. The technology has come LEAPS and BOUNDS since I tried tuning this archaic system called TBI... I'll jump in again and try it.

I went and bought Craig Moates Ostrich, a LM1 Wideband and EBL from Rbob.

So far, I've used the Ostrich on my stock ECM with some rough results. I've put in the EBL and can get it to work with a 32k flash chip fine... EBL is amazing with the Whats UP display and VE learn function. I'm on version 5 from the stock lg4 EBL.bin that comes with the EBL ecm setup and the VE learn has REALLY REALLY REALLY got the engine running better.

For some reason I can’t get the Ostrich to communicate with the EBL but I'm sure Craig will email me back or someone will solve that mystery soon.

I don’t have the wideband installed yet.

The car runs great and with EBL pulls right up near 6k rpm strong. It didn’t even come close to doing that with the stock ecm and Jons chip.

Jons chip was very drivable but temp certainly messed with idle and other drivability. The car would sometimes die at lights etc. and always idled rough.

With ebl, the car is idling like near stock. most of the dead spots are sorted, but I haven’t really got into fixing that tip in off idle quick change in TPS acceleration enrichment stuff. I hope that is sorted next weekend and then I won’t have many complaints about the car at all and you can guarantee it will hit the strip after that!

So there is one guy’s saga so far in this lovely world of tuning TBI. (Or attempting with little knowledge or intelligence!)

I'll be updating this same thread from time to time as I discover new fixes and have more stories to bore you all with.

cranknrods

may the BAUD be with you young chip master
we all can learn alot from your written experiences with this
dont keep us waiting
im trying to get into it myself and reading first hand other peoples stories --- good or bad will help make it not so frustrating

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The transient fueling is where Ive spent most of my time tuning. Here in NJ its both very cold and very hot, which is demanding on the fuel system. Having a 2" TBI doesnt help, either. If you still have the stock manifold, then it may just be an issue of too much AE. You practically live in the center of hell, so you shouldnt need much AE at all. Its only at very cold temps that you need alot of AE as the fuel easliy settles out on a cold manifold. A large carb manifold can literally swallow up just about all the fuel before it even enters the engine. If you slam the gas down without AE in that situation, the engine literally just stops running.

With a fully heated manifold in 110+ degree weather, the gas cant settle out very easily as the manifold is well above its boiling point. With a standard carb manifold, youll see a little of everything. How does it behave? Is it a stumble with some smoke and then it goes (too much), or does it hesistate and make a slow recovery(too little)? Or, is it a split second hesitation and then it goes fine (not enough momentary AE to cover for manifold filling)? There are three components to AE, the manifold air filling portion, the portion to cover for fuel wetting in the manifold, and general enrichment. In hot weather, youll probably only need some general enrichment to help improve acceleration and thats about it.

snflupigus

Right now when the engine is cold, it idles and runs rough then as it warms up a tiny bit it smooths out. When warm it will hesitate long enough to shift to a lower gear then take off strong as hell.. like turbo lag.
btw, it gets into the 30s at night here in the winter, usually 40s but this winter it did regularly.

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

My EBL is the shiznit. Still has a slight bog when gunned from a roll, but I think that's now just the nature of the beast. It's a f-ing animal off the line though.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

This is how my TBI responds getting on the highway about 2 blocks(1 minute or so) from my house in 20-30* weather. Engine is still cold, start it, let it idle long enough to show oil pressure, drop it into gear and pull away.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=p2kH39oC8O0

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

I can hear the same bog I get.

I probably should have gone with 85# injectors vice the 65#.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

If the car is an auto, the bog isnt that big of an issue. Tune it so it doesnt fall flat on its face and life is good.

With a stick, though, youll get that bog each and every time you shift and get back on the gas. Not only that but theres no TC, so it makes matters even worse. Coming out of a corner in second gear at low speed was the worst. It would either stumble if the engine heat soaked or hesitate and backfire out the intake. It drove me CRAZY! Almost to the point of considering MPFI to rid myself of the bog. Fixed it with the manifold temp. compensation logic and life was good again...

As for the auto VE learn in EBL, how does that work? Is it just straight up adjust the VE tables per the WB and/or BLMs, or is there logic to condition the input data and suspend learn when the engine isnt in steady state operation?

snflupigus

thats an rbob question... i just use it... i dont ask how it works LOL

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The Auto VE learn in the EBL uses logic to suspend the learning if the ECM is in AE, DE, DFCO, PE, or open loop. The VE learn also has temperature restrictions that can be changed. Finally the learn can be either from a wideband or the BLMs.

snflupigus

In regards to the ostrich not working with ebl... problem solved with a little help from Dom over on the DIY BIN board...

snflupigus

Ok... so just drove around about 60 miles and uploaded new learned ve tables from EBL's whats up display through tunerpro RT onto the ostrich about 7 times. Started over from scratch with the lg4 tune. I've pulled nearly 30% fuel out in some spots. avg across the ve low is about -22%

Ya, so fuel pressure with 68lb hour injectors = too high on this lil 305. This is why I'm bogging on accel - it floods then catches up somewhere else in the map... and I'm pretty sure decel enleanment cant pull enough fuel either based on the amount of exhaust crackle on decel from high rpm.

This would also explain why I was able to drive without knock when I changed the base timing to 0 when it should have been 6. (I think that effectively adds 6 degrees across the board right?) -- I only got knock at high rpm full throttle. and it was only 10 counts.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that once my ve learn cant do much more, i start messing with the ae and de and adding spark in until i get knock counts then back it off a degree or 2 and leave it?

Pull fuel then add spark = until you find max power??????????? Where the hell did I read that and why cant i find it.

TonyC

iTrader: (1)

68 pph injectors I think I have 55's in mine...wait maybe they're 65's...hmmm I'm not sure. Anyways, make sure your VE table is niiiiice and smoooooth. When you're tuning for it try to stay out of PE/AE by restricting rapid throttle movements. Taking 6* out of the base timing in the prom should add 6* to timing across the board (read: not subtract it) at least in the stock code. As far as tuning WOT goes, nothing better than a dyno man, but if you're doing it on the street, add timing two degrees at a time until you get some knock counts then back it off some. Keep in mind that if you get the timing down now, come summer it may ping a little bit more. The best way to tune for WOT is at the track or on a dyno, I like the dyno because graphs allow you to see which timing curve makes the most at which RPM and you can pick the optimal setting for each RPM point. Basically add timing until it doesn't make any more power or starts knocking. If it starts knocking but makes more power you need better gas (unlikely for a LO3) blah blah blah. We can go over it more later! Good luck!

snflupigus

well i took out 10% fuel accross the board and added in steps 5 degrees more timing nearly accross the board and still no knock counts except at wot and high rpm and only 6 counts total. I think its time for the wideband.

tony, yes, i took out 6 base last week temporarily... it felt stronger. But bill says he's got it timed to 6 base... so i put it back as that in the chip and then thats why i just took out fuel and added timing. again more power, car feels stronger but i think I'm wasting my time without the wideband. I wont be driving the car much at all this summer. Too f'n hot with the leather seats. I'm annoyed now driving it around trying to tune and its not even hot yet.

as for wasting time... i keep reminding myself this is a 305. LOL

My truck will waste this car all day long... and THATS whats really annoying me...

Tony, if you think we can get this combo to beat 14.6 (what the truck runs) as is... or eventually with new cam, I'd like you to tune for a bit while i drive next weekend. If you dont think it can break mid 14... I'm almost convinced I'm wasting my time in general trying to make a 305 stronger.

Once you have power, a 305 just isnt going to cut it I think.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Well 68# are not too much, on my 305 I was running 32 PSI with 61# injectors which was about 100 lbs/hr and it needed it (277 RWHP through the exhaust, 301 through cut-outs).

I always think of TRACO Engineerings project with Hot Rod back in 1989, they got a L03 car into the high 13s.

The gist of it was Edelcrap headers, Edelbrock carb performer intake, TBI-carb adapter, Stock TBI unit with 350 injectors, Custom ground cam (210/210 @ .050, .480/.480, 112 LSA), stock port L98 Aluminum corvette heads, Custom Prom by TRAACO. 3.73 gears, stock 5 spd, Dual Snorkel L69 air cleaner assembly, 3" exhaust from the Y out with a Corvette catalytic converter. They ran a 13.89 @ like 97 mph on slicks.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The knock counts wont be a very good guide. Just have to tune the spark until you find the sweet spot.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Exactly, I can hint that you should find peak power around 28-32* total timing by 4,000 rpm with the 416s with air/fuel ratio's in the 12.3-12.5:1 area.

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

I was pushing 262 RWHP and 365 RWTQ with my 350 on 55# injectors running at about 19 psi. Since then, I've had the EBL put in, tuned to 65# injectors but haven't been to the dyno yet. Maybe tomorrow.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Just wanted to chime in

I am infact still alive, figured I'd visit the old stomping ground and do a search for my name to see whether or not people were talking trash behind my back still

Good to hear you are back messing with thirdgens, I am amazed at how far the prom stuff has come since the days of me lobbying Dirk to add a diy-prom board back in 99 or so.

I still have a 7747 ecm and 454 TBI unit too... That was back when that ECM was your only option.

I never did figure out why the car would crap out at ~5300 rpm even though I could easily control the AFR to whatever setting I desired as verified by the wideband. It was definately fuel related since with the same ignition setup it ran just fine with the carb.
It still has me curious as hell, so if you guys figured out any strange issues with the fuel side of TBI at high rpm, like some sort of syncronization issue... Id really like to know.

Anyway, I'm into turbo buicks now.... Knowing what I know now, if I were you guys I would be clamoring for a DIY rear mount turbo, methanol injection, and whatever port efi setup you can get your hands on. That is if you want to go fast. That would make any thirdgen retarded fast for way cheap.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Welcome back Pablo....

Am curious myself as to why you were experiencing those probems way back when. Maybe Fast355 can shed some light on that subject. Speaking of "retarded fast", Fast355 recently broke into the 11's with his TBI inspired 305, without turbo and meth injection...

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I saw that thread

I was very impressed, big congrats and kudos to Fast355

as for the fuel thing

Rbob once posted a graph displaying what I was experiencing after I described it... said something to the effect of "You mean, this?" "Yeah, I fixed it" or something like that.

He never did reply with how he fixed it or what it was. Maybe I can dig up that old post.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...light=high+rpm


That thread

Toward the end he posts a log of what looks like the same thing I was feeling in my car. Maybe it wasnt the same thing.

He never did follow up and say what the deal was. Seemed like it was top secret info at the time.

DM91RS

I remember the thread as I posted a question after his post. I thought it had to do with fuel pulses.

BUT then I've put my foot in my mouth before...............

snflupigus

well... spent 4 hours hooking up my LC-1 to the EBL - Drove it for bout 15 minutes. No green adjustments on ve learn? gonna take a look at the tables to see if anything changed in the bin update. maybe it doesnt show it on VE Learn's screen if using WB to learn?

Other than that, the car failed emissions - which is why i finally installed the WB. The stock o2 sensor is still in and on whats up it shows a wide int range...

not sure that with the 65lbers in there i can get it to pass emissions. Still a miss at the top and i've pulled 20-25 (points, units, what does that table represent again?) out almost all over the map. Seeing 11.3 WB value at WOT --idle is usually around 14-15.

I really need someone to drive while i tune or vice versa. either that or im gonna have to get some dyno time in the next 2 weeks.

Still noticing difficulty tuning based on the fact that the 2ndary fan is not wired to the ecm to consistantly turn on. I turn it on myself via switch if i see the car getting hot. but i notice it can handle more fuel when hot without stumbling... probably due to the fact that its not able to be in liquid form in a sizzling manifold. Engine and outside air temps make this system really tough to tune. i went in for emissions when it was 105 outside but i've been tuning it when it was like 80.

Gallileo60

Mine does just that, as a matter of fact it runs better cold....Never misses a beat in the mourning.

snflupigus

ok... first round failing emissions BEFORE the wideband...

Hydrocarbons = 1.66 --- 1.00 standard = FAIL
Carbon Monoxide = 14.79 ---- 12.00 standard = FAIL
NOX = 1.83 --- 2.50 PASS

After 3 sessions of 20 minutes driving with the wideband ve learn enabled on the EBL setup...

Hydrocarbons = 1.17 --- 1.00 standard = FAIL
Carbon Monoxide = 9.02 ---- 12.00 standard = PASS
NOX = 2.07 --- 2.50 PASS

A little help? Outside temp was 103 degrees. The car is idling now FINALLY without any fear of dying at lights etc... It pulls SO much smoother through the entire RPM. It doesnt stumble around on me much at all.

Major question. why does my MAP reading fluctuate when TPS isnt moving nor are IAC steps. Vacuum leak? I also get VERY suble surging while cruise control is set and while the TPS is stable when i am cruising without cruise control on.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

You may want to check teh O2 thresholds. There are tables that define the rich/lean thresholds. Id get a new O2 if the old one has alot of miles on it and check the mean rich/lean and rich and lean O2 threshold tables. If these are set too high, the motor will run rich. This may also require a reduction in timing as the NOx will increase when the engine is leaned out. What AFR does the wideband say when its in closed loop? How far does the AFR swing?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I'd say to remove some timing is those areas that are hit during the smog check. Try 2 - 4 derees less and see how it is. Whichever way the VE changed between the tests helped out. I'd say it was leaner as the NOX increased. Don't go too lean as mis-fire can creep in and send HC through the roof.

Many moons ago I compared a '92 Cali and Fed BIN against one another (TBI f-body), and found that the Cali BIN ran less timing (up to 10 deg less in areas), along with a slightly higher O2 window (slightly richer).


Also posted: Major question. why does my MAP reading fluctuate when TPS isnt moving nor are IAC steps. Vacuum leak? I also get VERY suble surging while cruise control is set and while the TPS is stable when i am cruising without cruise control on.

At lower RPM the MAP will fluctuate. Once above the cam turn on point the MAP should be steady. If not it may be an valve or two that needs to be adjusted, vac leak, or some other oddity.

The subtle surging while cruising is probably the proportional gains. Any time the injector flow is increased these need to be reduced. Now whats the table name. . . Here it is: 'PRP - Gain Multiplier vs Airflow.' Reduce the values by 10% or so and see how it is.

RBob.

snflupigus

Rbob. Yes the EBLs ve learn pulled out even more fuel when hooked up with the wideband. It most places it is -20 in the mid and it has taken a bit out at the low rpm and top rpms too. At WOT it reads 11.6-12.5 depending. So I think it could pull a bit more in places when at WOT.

I also just recognized that my braided stainess line was interfering with the accelerator cable and in turn WOT and the tranny kickdown cable as well. Fixed that. need to drive it.

It would probably be impossible to pull timing where they test because they do a pretty mean test. They start the car, bring it to 20 mph or so then stop the car let it idle, then cruise to 20-30 mph, then the dyno makes it think its going up a hill and they hold the mph steady then they punch it to 60mph and cruise for about a minute then bring it to a stop and go again! all in 240 seconds.

Changed plugs today, cap and rotor too. The rotor wouldnt pop off so i had to break it to peices. The shaft was rusty as well as some other internal dist parts visible had surface rust on them. NOT cool. Brillo pad buffed the shaft back down and used compressed air to get the rust dust out.

The plugs.... HOLY JEBUS! I'm f'n suprised the car was running. They are so carboned that its not funny! I took a pick to one and got the carbon out of the valley between the threads and the ceramic, i had a mini pile of carbon when i was done. I also noticed one is gapped to .50 -- I gapped all the new delco stockers to .35-.40 ish. I did not replace the wires. They are 3yrs old and good ones.

Also found out today that my positive cable to the starter has been melting itself to my headers, probably why my starter wasnt starting the car very nicely! YA THINK??? LOL Fixed that.

Maybe I'll replace the plug wires if I fail again. I'll also replace the cat if i fail. All this time with a so so tune and no wideband and fouled plugs might have killed the cat.

I'm thinking the manifold might have a leak somewhere its getting old, my rear main seal and front oil pan seals are leaking, head gasket seals and valve covers are starting to show a bit of moisture too.

My MAP vacuum line was barely secured.

I am going to go drive the car now with the laptop on it and will post some results and maybe data logs later.

Thanks guys.

snflupigus

Ok. plugs cap and rotor and pcv valve. new wire to the alt from the battery. and......

The car runs smoother, and idles smoother. of course... couple more wideband tunes. still not getting adjustments on WhatsUP in VELEARN but when I check the map in tunerpro its making adjustments. I do have the checkbox checked to "VE Learn from wideband".


All in all I think I'll run it through emissions again tomorrow and pray. 25 bucks 1st run, then a freebee. I've already had 1 test and freebie. So tomorrow I pay again.

Couple things I noticed tonight - from a dead stop I go lean and backfired when i mashed the gas. 15:1 then straight to 11.7:1 - but when I mash it while cruising the AF stays ok and then just shifts and takes off. It does seem that the low end is lacking power vs over 2k rpm.

Other than that, the car is cruising perfectly. I think I might need to replace the charcoal cannister, I'm getting a gas smell but no gas is leaking anywhere that I can see but the smell is comming from the engine bay area up by the cruise control and what I think is the charcoal filter.

also, I'm almost certain my VSS is bad and that is what is causing my cruise control issues. I think an speedo adapter box killed it and my gauge. Bill had one installed when he switched the 2:73 to the 3:42 posi - I took the elec adjustor box out out so I think I read that I'm going faster than I am all the time. I intend to put in 3:23 disc with posi that I have. My gauge doesnt move til im going 20mph or so. And when you look at my datalogs, its hard to see whats going on because my speed is 0 then instantly 30mph! I better start checking wires around there too.

BTW, what would a bad VSS do within the ecm? where is VSS referenced?
----------
Adjust that table down 10%... nothing noticed really. As stated above, i think its my VSS or a vacuum leak.

snflupigus

adding some logs and my bin

http://www.snflupigus.com/files/bin.bin

http://www.snflupigus.com/files/log1.dat

http://www.snflupigus.com/files/log2.dat

http://www.snflupigus.com/files/logs.doc

90c350

Hey just a quick question. After installing the Ebl about how long did it take you to get it up and running and driveable?? I am going to be doing this conversion shortly do to my engine combo not liking the stock tune. I figure I may as well jump in and get the EBL isntead of doing a 100 chips of tune to get it right. The Ebl should make life easier right??? Thanks for the help!!

91chevz71

As long you do all the steps before starting, you should be ok. Not to go haul a$$, but to drive it should be allright. Base timing set, BPC vs VAC table should be good to go for whatever you have. Do VE learn's right off the bat, keep trips short (like 5 miles). It works great

snflupigus

For my ebl to work I had to change my jumper settings on my ostrich and my injector size. It would run right away with the stock 02... after 4 or 5 ve learn, 5 minute cruise circles through a few lights, on the interstate and back... it got the car in line enough to drive around. Get the EBL, Ostrich, and LC-1 Wideband though... or you'll chase your tail in circles.

and from RBOB, on why my VE learn wasnt adjusting with green highlight on VE Learn screen in WhatsUP...

so here I thought installing the wideband was doing wonders. In fact it was simply that the smoothing function was helping out and the wideband was while in PE. Awesome!!! how that affected drivability and idle.

90c350

Ok that is Great info on getting everything up and running!! I think that i can handle that. Is the osterich really a necessity?? I do plan on a wideban once the budget recovers from the ecm up grades. Also wondering if you can run WOT after you do some ve learns?? Not that im in a hurry but I will need to get that tuned in as well right?? Also wondering How many chip burns you think it will take to get this combo in line-- 350/4boltmain stock bottom end/comp 256hcam 212int/218exh dur/447int454exh lift on 110lsa/rpm-air-gap manifold/msd ignition/shorty ceramic headers/3" exhaust not cat/461 heads. I know its not that simple but this is a pretty mild combo at least i think. Just wondering on everyone experiance?? THanks alot

snflupigus

FAILED AGAIN.

HC - .86 of 1.0 aloud. BUT half of what I started at.
CO - 12.74 of 12.00 aloud --- original 14.79, then down to 9.02
NOX - 1.44 of 2.00 --- original was 1.83 then up to 2.07 2nd time around.

Need some help. I switched off of the wideband idle and cruise learn. and ran the inspection without the wideband. maybe a mistake. I think when i uploaded the bin without the wideband controlling idle it f'd it up.

I DO however have a graphical rep of the emissions run. I only failed when he punched it at the end CO spiked off the chart in the last 30 seconds as he accelerated to 50mph from 30. NOX spiked then too.

Here are my two logs - right before emissions, on the way to get my oil changed, and then durring the test. see the differences in WB AF ratio! WTF!!!!!!!

On the way to change the oil...
http://www.snflupigus.com/files/log-may16.dat

At emissions.
http://www.snflupigus.com/files/log-emissions.dat

I also thought I was hearing an exhaust leak after getting the oil changed, maybe its a lifter that hasnt pumped up with oil? or maybe its all that knock that the 2nd log is showing. I'd like to think I could backtrack to the bin on the way to get the oil changed then go to emissions again but I dont want to waste another 27.50. I have 1 freebee till I have to pay for a 3rd time.

snflupigus

http://www.jagsthatrun.com/V8-chapte...ed-Sensors.pdf

Rbob, can you explain how the VSS is used within your ecm?

I think I NEED to replace it if it is referenced anywhere but the speedo gauge.

Thanks.

snflupigus

so what is the benefit of NOT using the wideband and having it adjust a/f at idle and cruise? I dont see the benefit of turning the car back over to the blm's and int's and narrow band. LOL

Took out nearly 40% from my pe tps pw. car is more responsive. instead of that accelerate, lag, and accelerate again.... it just sort of goes then goes more.

I disabled the EGR and plugged it as well as the purge can. No difference in operation.

I really think I would have passed emissions today if i would have left the wideband in charge.

thoughts on that?

91chevz71

I am about to try and pass emissions with no equipment. You just tuned everything for 14.7 AFR, huh? Anything else ?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The VSS or MPH variable is used a lot (this is true in all ECMs). Some areas:

TCC lock up points
to know whether in idle state
MPH SA retard & fuel cut (soft touch limiter)
hiway lean cruise qualifier
transient MAP filtering
EGR qualifier
N2O qualifier
BLM boundries
Throttle follower delays and decay
CCP qualifier
Knock retard threshold


With the reduction in AE that will help in the CO area. I just responded to your PM with the advice to reduce AE.

When doing a VE Learn the corrections are shown on the screen. Right hand side, the three radio buttons, bottom one will show the VE corrections in percent. If not enough data for that point a dot '.' will be shown.

With the reduced AE you will probably need to do additional VE Learns. The extra AE caused the center of the VE table to drop low as it was trying to make up for the excess AE.

Before going back for another test I would get the tune better. Need to have a crisp throttle response without the excesses. Don't forget to reconnect the EGR for the test.

RBob.

snflupigus

Here is a graphical rep of my last emissions test. I was well under until the clip from 30-50 at the end where I'm positive AE kicked in and the bch went way rich. strangly NOx and HC spiked a bit there too.

sorry, digi is broke, this is camera phone.

top is MPH, then HC, then CO, then CO2, and then NOx.

snflupigus

ok. more driving... now I'm going a bit lean. 14:1 for a hair of a second then still go rich from AE to 11.2-11.8:1 --- I dont want to take more out of ae for risk of going too lean for that hair of a second. The car is much smoother and better off the light now. Maybe I should add some back to ae at High change in TPS and take more away at the low change fields in TPS.

Thoughts?

Still havent got the VSS replaced. 100 bucks? seriously? I have a new disc posi rear end for the car with 3.23's instead of the 3.42 posi drum. I guess I'll get the right gears for the new rear end and a new speed sensor and see what happens. I'll be a little slow on the spedo but at least I should have SOME steady register to the ecm for MPH so that my EGR can do its job... and I can finally pass emissions and really start tuning this thing for power.

btw, the second screenshot... ya. cop was in the oncomming lane. one of those mean lookin charger cop cars. 80-50 real quick

http://www.snflupigus.com/files/screenshot.xls
http://www.snflupigus.com/files/log16.dat

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

When tuning I usually try to avoid engaging AE. If its not avoidable, then maybe tune that area by hand so there is a human eye to look things over. I also agree about fixing the VSS. The EGR will help with the NOx when its active. That will help you to pull even more AE to reduce the CO and HCs. I wouldnt worry too much about going too lean, just try to keep it richer then 15:1. 11-12:1 is too rich for emmissions. Also, hows the cat? Is it old, or relatively new? If its got alot of miles on it, then maybe getting a dedicated cat for emmissions would be a good idea. Once your done, you can replace it with a 'cat' and leave teh functional one on the shelf.

Another tip with AE. The main driving factor behind the need for AE is changes in MAP. When the manifold is 'cool' and the pressure rises suddenly, the vapor pressure of the fuel is lower then the manifold pressure, which allows the gas to settle out. When the car is hot, though, you hardly need any AE at all. It may be that the manifold is heat soked during emmissions, which means that you may have more AE then you need. It also may be easier to use the MAP AE for all long term AE corrections. This also then frees up the TPS AE to handle the momentary lean spike.

The lean spike comes from delays in teh system as well as manifold filling. On tip-in, there is a sudden inrush of air past the TBI. Since this airflow is much higher then what teh engine is moving, that air will not have enough fuel mixed in with it. You need to add additional fuel for a tenth of a second or so to cover this. Its also important to note that this effect is seperate from your main AE. Trying to add AE to cover for this lean spike will leave you way rich for the remainder of AE.

Basically MAP AE = manifold wetting. This AE is needed when the manifold is cool or cold and there is a rise in pressure and lasts from around 1-3 seconds or more, depending on how cold it is. The TPS AE = manifold filling which only lasts a couple hundred milliseconds, or however long the manifold takes to fill to the new pressure. This is seperate from the MAP AE. If you have a short lean spike and then its fine, then you need more short term TPS AE to cover for it. Conversly if its sort of ok for a split second and then goes lean, you need more MAP AE.

Conversly, there is also decel enlean, which is the inverse of MAP AE. This is needed when there is a sudden drop in pressure and the pressure falls below the vapor pressure of the fuel components. They then vaporize and cause the engine to go rich. Sometimes REALLY rich if the manifold is cold. This shows up as a sudden rich spike after the throttle is shut.

91chevz71

hmmm. good info

snflupigus

ups missed my package friday so they didnt deliver my speed sensor until today at 1:30!!!! Not cool, i could have been driving the car all weekend tuning. o well. Also, paid $105 expired registration today. but got the insurance ticket for $950 waived since i was able to prove i was insured at the time of the citation.

Its nice having a smooth sweeping speedo again. I think it will help the computer figure things out a bit but so far not a lot of driving difference.

One MAJOR thing I realized I'd never changed was my BPC - BPC vs VAC from the ebl default of 135 to a corrected 107 - then i added 10% back into my both ve maps and drove. it still added some fuel but not much. now its back close to perfect and seems to idle better now than it did before. in my head?

Also, I think a lean backfire has blown a header gasket? I definately hear an exhaust leak somewhere, it could be my catback still from when i let the shop change my oil. no exhaust leak noise before oil change, now a leak.? wtf did they lift it from the exhaust pipe? and it still smells like gas. I think the cat is clogged up from running rich for about 15k miles. the plugs were more than fouled so i think the cat is now trying to burn off all that crap and stinkin up the place.

Back to the BPC change. I QUICKLY realized that i needed to start over with my AE changes too. as I got wicked lean backfires even on slight tip in. I set them back to ebl base and have actually added 5% on the TPS table and 5% on the MAP table. It looks like im not going rich on Acceleration until the moment PE kicks in. I'd like to scale that back so I dont go to 11:1 a few seconds after I mash it. Is that where I need to pull back on the AE-MAP? pr can i scale down PE to only add .5 AF and decrease the attack coef.

guess i'll buy a new cat soon. I think I'm gonna suspend registration on it if it doesnt pass emissions next time. I'm tired of tuning a car that in the end is only gona run 14's LOL - the 305 can go in the 914 and pass emissions and make it scream hahaha.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

To reduce the duration of the AE, increase the filter values. There is:

AE - MAP Filter
AE - TPS Filter

A higher filter value will reduce the duration of the AE, and the volume also. So as the filters are increased you may need to increase the PW tables. Check the .EBL dump log, the last several columns are all AE stuff. Shows the delta TPS and MAP (dTPS & dMAP) along with the PW contribution and final AE PW.

From that can see which one (TPS or MAP) is contributing and how much for how long.

RBob.

snflupigus

so pe is not whats flooding me with fuel? its just too much ae from either TPS, MAP or both? I've never dumped a log, guess i should actually use this fine software you include to the fullest. LOL - Thanks rbob.

Also, a suggestion. It would be helpful to see the current wideband output on the VE learn screen and knock screens. maybe in the space on the right hands side... I like to watch the ve screen to see where modifications are happening but I also like the MPG screen for the large wideband output.

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

AE always seems like the culprit in such situations, it's my understanding that since AE is delivered in pulses of fuel you have to scale it down to match your injectors... ie. if you want to keep the same stock amount of AE delivered with your new 65lb injectors as it delivered with your stock 55lb injectors you have to decrease your AE overall by about 15%. Someone correct me if my theorizing is wrong. I know that's what killed me when I threw in BBC injectors and didn't touch the AE right away.

the kid in me had to quote you on this too...

91chevz71

I've found that out too. Decreased AE probably 40-50 percent from 'normal'.

interesting

snflupigus

tried that... thats when I got the millisecond lean spike and backfire... I will try to cut it 20% from mapae not tpsae but also decrease scale and see what happens if i give it more time on tps ae and less for map ae ?