BrightRed93Z28

Ok, my buddy has an 89 RS 305 TBI Auto. Lately it's had a problem, sometimes it will cut off while driving. It won't start half the time either unless you jump it off. Well, I'm thinking to myself "charging system.....duh". So we jump his car off and go to the auto parts store and they check the battery. They said the battery was too low to be tested. Ok, either a dead cell in the battery or a bad alternator. We went home and pulled the alternator and went back and they said "The alternator is good!" WTF? We spun the fan on the alternator and it sounded like metal scraping against metal inside, so I'm guessing the internals were all messed up. They STILL said the alternator was good. They said "The machine is brand new, so I doubt it would misread." So we go home and reinstall the alternator and put the battery in the back of the car and head back AGAIN.... they said "battery is good. 13 volts." Grrrrrr...... what the hell is wrong with this pos? I swear that alternator is going out, but the shop SWEARS on all things holy that it's ok. What do ya'll think??

Cadillac

Try another shop.

~shrug~

REDRIGHT9

I think I would try checking with a volt meter at your place, see what it reads at idle, reving to about 2k, then turn everything on (lights, radio ect.) and checking, see what it reads..Check at the battery and at the alt...

Red25thRS

replace it....i work at advance and we can only test the volts...we cant see how many amps its putting out so it could still be bad...it might put out the right amount of volts so its ok...but we cant see how many amps its puttin out...id replace it....sounds like its not puttin enough out and is drainin the batt.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

I would still have the battery tested as well.

BrightRed93Z28

Ok, so my friend gets the new alternator and we throw it on. She starts right up and drives around fine. We shut it off and go inside and come out later and the car turns slow, but still starts. He takes off for work and I go inside. He calls about 15 mins later and says that he was going about 30mph and had to slow down to 10 for a sharp curve on the way to work and that the car started to sputter and was about to die. He turned into his works parking lot and it went dead. Tried to start it and it cranked VERY slowly and then nothing. Turned the key again and it was dead as a door nail. Anyone?

REDRIGHT9

So the battery tested good but just low charge?? I would first look at this battery as possibly being shorted internally...

BrightRed93Z28

When we drove the car there, it was a low charge. When we took it out and brought it there (it had been on a charger for a while) it read it was fine. I'll probably end up taking the battery and having it retested....

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It sounds as if you might have a short somewhere in you're harness. Also, check you're engine grounds, and battery cables. Make sure nothing is loose... as loose cables will fry a brand new alternator in no time.

As for hard starting (slow cranking), you're probably experiencing the dreaded heat_soak. You might have an exhaust leak where the header (or exhaust manifold) meets the Y-Pipe, causing the starter to get extremely hot. Either this, or the timing is way too advanced (causing the engine to overheat).

Either way, the pistons expand to the point of not being able to move when engines overheat, causing the starter to work extremely hard trying to budge them.... ultimately draining the battery in the process.

BrightRed93Z28

Ok, a new development. I went to his work late last night to jump him off, and his car died the second we turned the lights on. So we left my car connected to his for a while and it finally turned on and he drove off trying to make it the two miles home and I was behind making sure he got there. Well, 5 stops later he finally made it. The thing I noticed was, his brake lights weren't working. The running lights were , but brake lights and spoiler light wasn't. I'm thinking it's grounding out somewhere maybe? Anyone have a diagram?

bulletboy29

When it won't start, do the lights come on? I had a starter go out one time and it would act just like a dead battery. Another time, I had a bad ground that would let it start and work fine and sometimes shut everything down.

BrightRed93Z28

When it won't start, yes the lights come on. There were some blown fuses and we replaced them, so now the battery guage reads like it should. It still won't start sometimes and will cut off intermitently in traffic. Just yesterday we went over a bump in the road and the whole thing died. I did some snooping and I saw these things and the wires are all disconnected. Anyone know what they are and where they should be connected too?

BrightRed93Z28

The loose white wires that aren't connected, belong to the black thing on the right that I circled. When the car won't start and we turn the key, the black thing clicks like crazy.

BrightRed93Z28

Shot of the loose wires.

Benm109

The black thing is a relay. It's either the coolant fan relay or the fuel pump relay (same part number), but considering it clicks like crazy when you try and start the car, I'd guess it's the fuel pump relay. I have no clue what that other connector is for, though.

The only real advise I have though is to try and get ahold of a wiring diagram for the car (Chilton's manual, service manual, etc.) and start tracing wires. I know it's a pain, but somebody seriously hacked up the wiring in that car, and it looks like they didn't have a clue what they were doing. Sadly, that's not uncommon.

serpentineocean

* - Just be glad your entire wiring harness didn't melt into one big mass of plastic and copper like mine!!!


ps - darn previous owner.. not me... lol, looks like he fried somthing in the tailight cuircit, but in doing so melted everything around it (under dash)

BrightRed93Z28

You should see the wiring for the rest of the car!! OMG, it's a hack job from hell! My friend is saving up money for a completely new GM harness from bumper to bumper so he can have something better to work with in the future. I'm going to look at the wiring next time I get around his car. Would the car still start even though that relay (if it is for the fuel pump) isn't connected??? If it's the one for the fans, then I'm not surprised it's all messed up because the last guy that owned the car wired the fans to a switch inside the car.

serpentineocean

Umm, i would think not. If the relay isn't hooked up correctly then i couldn't see your fuel pump turning on at all.

Could always put your ear up all the way next to the trunk and just have somone turn the key to the 'run' position (don't crank over).. and you should hear the fuel pump kick on for a second or two too build pressure.


And yea, I might be doing the whole wiring some time. My only issue now (after month and months of wire tracing/replacing) is that my dash lights keep blowing fuses. I think my dimmer headlight switch is doing that though, but i still got to replace it.

Good luck on the wiring.

BrightRed93Z28

ok, after messing the car a little, we've gotten it to start almost 90% of the time. Lets say you drove the car around a bit and stopped at a gas station, now 3 out of 4 times she'll fire back up. But once in a while she wont. On those times it won't start, if it sits for about 30 mins she'll fire up without missing a bit, like nothing was wrong. But when the car won't start, the battery guage reads that everything is ok, and I've checked the volts and the battery is at 13. I'm stumped. My friend said he's actually had people jump him off when it's not started for him and it's started every time. I dunno what to think....could there be something wrong with the battery so that the amps are drained and have to rebuild themselves to let it crank over, but the volts are still normal?

steve8586iroc

Have you checked the starter or the connections on the starter? Recheck all the grounds going to the engine also.

Steve

brodyscamaro

Things to keep in mind:
I have had bad alternators test good.
I have had bad batteries test good.
Even with a good alternator, battery, and starter, I fought starting issues for a long time with my old Camaro. Best option would have prolly been to re-wire the car. I ran a push button switch though. A wire from the main post on the starter (always hot) to the switch in the car, and then out to the proper post on the starter (forgot which post, the one with the purple wire). Never again did my car not start.

PhLaXuS

Another thing to take note of is that if the alternator were bad, it may have killed the battery. They can only take a finite amount of full cycles before kicking. You can try swapping batteries with him if you're up for it. You can also pry open the electrolyte covers and measure from one cell to the next. They should all be about equal. I was looking at a (then) girlfriend's Taurus and found that when I metered the battery @ the terminals, I'd get +1.4VDC. I pulled the covers and all the cells had fluid (even maintenance-free batteries can get low). Five of the cells had +2.08V and one was -9V...and this was a year old battery from a big-name battery company (I forget who).

If you measure individual cells, dip the meter probe tips into the electrolyte, but don't allow them to touch any metal in the cell. Also, clean them off immediately & take caution as sulfuric acid is VERY corrosive/dangerous if left anywhere.

chesterfield

Correct me if I am wrong, but if the charging system was good, the car will run without a battery. If you jump start it then disconect the battery (do not let the positive cable ground to anything) and it dies then your charging system is not working. If you charge the battery then start it and drive without it charging, then it runs the ignition off the battery until it doesn't have any juice left and it dies. This happens faster if you have lights or radio on.
By the way, running your car without the battery connected is not recommended. I've done it dozens of times without a problem. EDIT:Come to think of it, I've only done this on non-computer cars (except my efi ford van and don't remember the outcome)

BrightRed93Z28

Ok, let me get this straight... Next time it won't start, jump it and diconnect the battery. If it stays running, the problem could be the battery. If it dies, something else in the charging system? FYI, the alternator is brand new, what else could it be?