snflupigus

well, maybe not anymore

some of you might remember this idea... see posts here.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...light=redesign

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...light=redesign

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...light=redesign

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...light=redesign

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...light=redesign


rereading those posts... I sure did have some big dreams about tbi et al. :lala: and i sure have learned a lot since then. and forgotten a lot too. LOL

anyway, who's got a cnc machine?

for those of you who dont remember:

I began designing this over 3 years ago.. and never did build one.

2.25 inch bores. 3 peice highly adaptable design.

thought i could have made some $ with it... well. now if somebody builds one, i guess everybody will know where they got the design, and I'll just burn their building down if they dont give me $ for it.



questions, shoot....

90RS305

Holy Gooseegs Batman! You definetly got my ears to perk on this one. And awesome job on the CGI, too! I want to see where you go with this, I didn't get a chance to read through all the links you posted, so what kinda of a price range do you think this would be around? Totally diggin' the idea...

Bruce (90RS305)

Red Devil

Why not cast it instead of CNC? You could cast the bodies then whatever you couldn't cast, you send to the CNC. Many less hours that way.

snflupigus

i havent touched this since about 02.

i think i could get one built for 500 now from a guy. fully cnc'd. cast? actually i think it could be cheaper to cnc after ordering the right sized stock to start with.

i just figured since i never built it. i could finally show it to people.

in reality, nobody needs 2.25 inches... and the injectors to match it would have to be 80pph, with higher preasure and some creative fp regulation. and even then it's not as efficient as port injection. its really just not that practical.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

so considering that there are 900 cfm throttle bodies with 4 injectors and 500 hp potential for well under 500 what would be the benefit to this design?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

btw i remember this well I didnt understand your drive to produce it then and I dont get it now either

snflupigus

see: "not practical"

25THRSS

I understand exactly what you mean, but if he built it to be a direct swap for the computer and sensors it might be a viable option. It would be a better idea to me to just bore out a stocker and sleave it.

snflupigus

the sensors would bolt up, its just a different body... i might still make a 2" one soley because with the way its designed, the bottom plate can be adapted a few different ways and increase or lower plenum volume. the top plate can be adapted to be for a different air cleaner setup, while the middle is where the butterflies are... after i did a lot of the innitial design work i saw a chrysler v10 throttle body. very similar look, without the square bore and air cleaner adapter.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

who here has exceeded the capacity of the 2.00 inch bores?
If so what were the symptoms of lack of air? i thought the fuel was issue(lack of) not the CFM of unit for most of our needs. if we cant hit 95 map then i suspect we need more air.

snflupigus

i dont think anybody has exceeded 2" bores... the only advantage i think it might have now is simplicity and adaptability.

fuel is the problem... there is a reason evolution of fuel injection has gone towards 8 injectors instead of 2.

2 are simple & cheap however... tbi is simple and easy for most to understand and work on. It does have it's advantages, unfortunately they are often quickly beat out by better alternatives that just keep getting cheaper.

r90camarors

Honestly, I do not think fuel is a problem. Air is. I'm sure my 383 would/will have been much happier with more airflow, but I want to push the limits of the 2bbl tbi, refuse to go to carb, and don't have the money for a port system.
I never had a problem going lean, albiet readings were through the stock o2 sensor, but I had plenty of fuel pressure to play with as well. My MAP levels on the other hand definetely indicated that I could definetely use more airflow. I believe I still have some winaldl data if anybody is interested. I was using 85pph delphi injectors at 22.5psi.

The biggest concern with the larger tbi is that the bores overhang the plenum of a squarebore intake, and I would have to imagine that disrupts atomization.

va454ss is running a 454 tbi that has been sleeved to 2.2", and I believe the price is in the same ballpark as the 2.25".

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

I am indeed using the 2.2" bore TB. Several members over at www.454ss.com are also.

I use it on a single plane dual pattern manifold. I blended the mounting pad of the intake to match the Holley adapter, after I modified it for the 2.2 bores.

Dewey316

va454ss,

Where are you guys having your units sleved at? running the numbers, i might potentialy be maxing out the 2" bore with my upcoming combo (that is assuming i still make power at 6800 .

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

z28boy has nice photos on the mod to modify the manifold plenum lip to allow a smoother flow due to overhang of the 2.00 inch TB's. i will be doing that with a dremel. i guess one removes half of the gasket surface and that still allows a seal. from what i see on mock up the butterfilies will not hit the manifold lip with adapter plate installed.

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

http://www.454ss.com/gallery/JimD/Jim_D.htm

Of course, the pics show one set up for MPFI. Not much difference if you're using the stock TB injector setup, though. I was the first to use one modified by Jim and using the stock injector placement.

He may have one ready, on the shelf.

If you decide on getting one, there are some other mods you may be interested in, so pm me.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

getting back to surpassing capacity of 2.00 inch. i hit 100 MAP easily. but that is WOT at lower rpms. i will guess if i can hit 95-100 at WOT but at midrange or higher rpms and that will prove i am adequate on air flow/cfms. no restriction as i hit atmospheric press. on dyno i revved freely to 5100 rpms where the max HP occurred. A/F was 12.1/1. now new cam is going in 226/232 @.05 so target is 5700-5800 and that may max my 2.00 TB's. maybe not. is there a formula of rpm/CID that will provide a baseline of cfms needed to fuel a car? it appears nascar with restrictor plates and provide enough air for 8500 rpms.

305RSlc

How many cfm would the 2.25" tb actually flow? 2'' start out at 670cfm, so how much can you get out of a 2.2" or 2.25"?

snflupigus

depends on what you measure em at... 800-900cfm maybe

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

This is definitely a really good and innovative idea and I'd like to see it put to use at least with one person doing it. I think there's a lack of motivation on this board because almost everyone has a basically stock 305 with a few bolt-ons, so there really isn't the requirement for big airflow like that.

I'd like to see a lot more people building up these TBI motors more heavily instead of BSing around about whether to use an open element or dual snorkel. People don't understand that either one won't make a big of difference on a 170hp engine, just my 2 cents. Let's see one of the guys with a 350 or 383 TBI try this setup out, I bet it would work real nice.

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

Works well on my 454

snflupigus

most people who build those engines.... dont stick with tbi for a reason.....

see, port injection on the sleeved 454.

I would like to try it, just because I dont usually beleive anyone else and always think I could do it better. then i try it, and usually end up saying, well i guess you were right, now i understand why you did it THAT way instead. - but sometimes... i get to say.... you were wrong jerky.... i got it to work fine.

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

I agree; most give up on it. When I joined the 454SS club, TBI had just about been given up on as any real performance is concerned.

I was the first to use Jim's sleeved TB with the injectors in the stock location. I'm also using the same cam as Jim (CC 264HR). No one else would jump in and try one. After I reported a 3-4 tenths improvement in ET with just the addition of a bored TB and an Extrudehoned Edel TB manifold, people started taking notice.



Would you believe there are those that still believe that you can't run elevated fuel pressures and that a TBI'ed BBC won't pull past 4700? Or that you can't run a carb manifold under TBI? Oh yeah; don't use any type of stall converter with TBI cause it will slow you down.



My truck has been converted to a 16147060 PCM vs the stock 8747. I'm also using the AutoProm with TunerCat and an InnovateMotorsports wideband O2. I'm also using an external vac ref fpr.

Took the truck for a shakedown run yesterday after some mods.

It was idling happily at 33 lbs and singing right along at 5500 with 41 lbs.

I will say one thing. If you don't have patience, stay away from TBI:lala:

TGO is THE place for TBI knowledge:hail:

snflupigus

we like to think so ----

spead more will you...

i used to know a lot considering... about 3 years ago. then everybody passed me up.

Its time for me to get back into it.... its time for a reawakening of the camaro.

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

I'm also using this:

http://www.efitune.com/forum/index.p...=ST&f=17&t=98&

r90camarors

:hail: So, So true, like you said, expensive at times, but sometimes the price is out weighed by satisfaction

454ss-
That is awesome news on the truck. How is the autoprom working out for you? I can't wait to see what that beast runs at the track, I think you're gonna impress MANY people, especially when you show 'em the 2bbl tbi under the hood!


In reference to both designs, that is the 2.2" sleeved 454 tbi and the 2.25" tbi idea: What about using a new style holley injector pod? It is much thinner in diameter, allowing for more airflow, and much easier access to the regulator. It is just a thought, but probably not to cost efficient

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

AutoProm is working great. Still have an issue with burning chips, but I can emulate, so the tuning goes on. The AutoProm and the wideband O2 are the 2 best investments I've made.

Plumbing in the external reg was an adventure, but adjustments are exponentially easier and I have a 8lb span vs 6 for the GM unit.

I confirmed my suspicions about my mid and upper RPM miss. It wasn't a lean condition, but my injectors going static.

I'm not familiar with the holley injector pod. I've reduced the footprint of my pod considerably.

Tonight I'm trying to fit the injector covers again

The person I want to impress the most is ME

90RS305

Well, glad to hear you're back! The TBI board has been getting more and more hits everyday, seems as if this TBI thing is starting to get evermore popular. That, and I bet Shifty wouldn't mind another Mod here that knows a lil' bit more about the subject than I do I'm learning though, I know a lot more than I used to.

If you DO get this thing up and running, and see some good gains out of it, I'll buy it. I like testing new stuff...

Bruce (90RS305)