snflupigus

just wondering... How much would i have to tune it back? could i get the injectors small enough?

i think this would be sweet instead of dual webers.

jase

Do you think that old computer would be reilable?They barely kept a 305 running.That was my problem and no know how at that time.

vwdave

Try to get Solex carbs. I've done a few dual carb swaps, decent kits and they seem to work well.

MrDude_1

if everything worked and you had a lot of free time and were willing to do it...... yea

you could do it.



but it kinda seems like a waste of time... unless you wanna do it "just cause"....

snflupigus

i was thinking it could make for better milage and drivability as well as more torque and throttle response. No? what fuel injections alternatives are there to those old vw engines or is carb the best way to go on em?

MrDude_1

given their size, ive seen decient economy with just plain carbs..

but i think that question is best left to people that are more into Vdubbs.

if i were to make a FI system for it, i would probly be looking at somthing simple.. like the megasquirt or somthing...


to be honest, the only VW experiance i have is a lil tinkering with a friends VW gokart, and my old VR6 jetta.... and the VR6 isnt your typical air cooled VW motor

vwdave

Look around, there are tons of FI systems for the dual port bugs. CB Performance has them, but I think they are a bunch of retards.

I have a site I just got some parts off of, when I get the URL, I'll PM it to you.

vwdave

I've dealt with these guys, they seem good.

http://www.cip1.com/

BTW, VR6's F'ing rock. I want one as a DD.

MrDude_1

lol yea.. its fun to lay the smack down with a lil old jetta and 4 friends in the car.... it would lay waste to 4banger ricers..

and most stock 3rdgens im sad to say...

athough their motor mounts never did like me putting alot of power thru them...

pic of my busted motor mount:

http://josh.swoca.net/board/mrdude/jettabreak2.JPG
http://josh.swoca.net/board/mrdude/jettabreak3JPG
http://josh.swoca.net/board/mrdude/jettabreak1JPG



after that, i just sold it and went back to cars that were ment to go fast

vwdave

How the hell did you manage that???

I thought I have seen everything...

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

those VR6's always seem to attract all the craziest drivers. My friends mom had one and she smoked the motor after only 20k from over-revving it.

snflupigus

so what does a 1600cc bug run 1/4 wise? with some good mods?

lykan

Hey ya, stumbled onto this post, thought i would share what I know about the old Vdubs.

I've run these things since I was about 19 or so..

Their offroa ability in stock form amazed me oso much I converted mine to a baja.

A baja not being enough I bought a fiberglass bodied scooby-doo looking buggy, shortened 14.5 inches, it would raise the front wheels on a hard launch

Anyhow there's two things I have always hated about vw's #1 their carbs, #2 their points. $100 bucks gets rid of the points with a crane electric ignitions deal, 2 wire hook up 15 minute job.

Carbs, I've never been able to find a good carb. Dual webbers/solex etc. Are a PITA!!!@##$@! to tune right. Perhaps I didn't have the know how, but I have had 3 motors with the dual's and they never ran right, 2 out of the three buggys were sold to me at ridiculously cheap prices, because they wouldn't run right. Maybe out of the box they run better but duals always been a pain for me.

For power, if you like to tune 24/7 I suppose the duals are the way to go-or so they say. For reliability, the old solex single carb always seems to do best, ONLY when their in good shape.

If your looking for long term reliability I would give it a shot for sure. I do know that some of the newer bugs actually came with EFI stock. my father in law has one in his garage (mint) I was amazed never seen one before. I think the wagons..uhm station wagon VW's came with it too, same era as the bug.

Anyhow if you have any questions about vw's from brakes to exhaust your welcome to drop me a mail I also have tons of links in my favorites..BTW I think the carb thing is one of the reasons behind the pinto swap being so popular.

Sky@skyscomputers.com

MrDude_1

N20 and slicks.


if that didnt happen, i would have had a turbo on it... i even had the money for the kit ready..

after that, i had someone just TIG that piece back in place, used it to help me move to texas, and sold it.

funny. if i broke that halfshafts or somthing else that i expected to break, i wouldnt have been upset.. but the actual CASE!? comon...

iroc22

My buddy just did a VR6 swap in his 91 Golf and he just turned a 14.4@98mph IIRC. His clutch is toast though.

MrDude_1

mine was a 2000 jetta...


drove it from south carolina to vegas, with luggage still in the car, i took it down the strip in vegas for a 15 flat run, and drove it back home


most of the western US was taken at the speedlimiter.... speedo read 143....

nick harmon

if im not mistaken, i read an article on beetles that said they turned the 1/4 in like 20+ sec. like high 20s. sounds ludicris i know, but i could be wrong. and as far as carbs go ive seen aftermarket intakes that accept squarebore carbs. dudes engine was pushing like 275hp. lots of mods ofcoarse.

Tom 400 CFI

If you'll look at my sig you'll see that the "old computer" did just fine for me, "barely" keeping my 400 running. LOL!

Now to answer Snuf's question, I son't think it'd work w/o ecm tuning. ONLY because there aren't injectors small enough. A bug engine, is what, 48hp? 55 for the super beetle? I'll probably get flamed for not being right on, but my point is that the smallest TBI injectors you can get are for the 2.8 V-6, and that engine is still 125-135 hp. You'd have to run the injectors at such a low PSI, they really wouldn't work at all . Accuracy would be out the window.

snflupigus

im looking at some built dual weber engines pushing 150-170hp. but they are expensive. so think with some help tuning, maybe i could stick with the single carb manifold and adapt it for a single barrel cf throttle body.

I dont know, i just like the idea of fuel injection, and if i could do it reasonably, i would. otherwise, i will probably stick with the single carb unless its got NO power. but i think its built a little bit, we'll see. I havent got the car yet.

Tom 400 CFI

Well if your intent is to run over 100 hp, you could probably do it with just injector and FP fiddling.

vwdave

Delorto(sp) carbs are the ****. But, the company switched over to fuel injection. So you have to get the carbs used.

Webers suck for idling, they have horrible street manners. I haven't had any problems with the solexs.

MrDude_1

im running a weber DGV on my spitfire and it is great.... exclent carb...

but a bug is a lil diffrent motor... i dont think its really the carbs fault as much as teh engines..




what would be cool and effective IMO is if you ran a set of motorcycle carbs... i think they are more suited to the smaller bug engine then car carbs.. and they are new, modern carbs..

come to think of it, a nice motorcycle EFI system could be just what you're looking for.

kdrolt

Two single-bore TBIs from a Crossfire were together intended to feed the air-fuel demand of a 5.0 (or 5.7) liter. Airflow-wise, the pair will flow 550+ cfm which put them at the range for 300+ fwhp.

So one of them (use a single TBI unit, or one from any Iron Duke 2.5 liter 4 cylinder from a S10 or Fiero or other small GM car) should be able to handle a 2.5 liter engine handily. The problem is when youy say "old VW" engine, that suggests a flat-four engine, and they were in the 1500-1600 cc range, and up to 2.0 liters in some of the later Type IVs if memory serves. So even if you had a 2 liter VW engine, a single TBI might be too large for it, especially when you try to get the id;le circuit adjusted. The single TBI would also have to sit atop the long runner intake that feeds both heads on the flat-four.

Running dual CF TBIs is, I think, out of the question because you'd be using two TBIs suited for a 5.0 liter engine on something that's in the 1.5 to 2.0 liter range. You'd have to raise the idle speed a lot.

I think it's too hard to make it work well on a street engine. I think you'd be better off finding another donor. HTH.

lykan

Couldn't.. now im just throwing ideas out here...

couldn't you put in resrictor plates for the air flow..injectors is another matter all together..the dual solex I sold were 44's I am assuming 44mm each..I could be way wrong tho..

Some of the problems I have had with bug carbs..
Freezing,icing...poor idle.. flooding while shut off..etc etc

snflupigus

stopped at a garage today. a local guy who works on ferrari's etc.. actually, in his garage today was a rolls, an mg, an old lotus, and very old jag.

He said dont even bother trying to do anything to an old vw engine, because whatever you do isnt going to make it much faster and since im used to driving v8's it will never feel fast, so just leave it as it is in its reliable unmodified form.

I think i might listen to him. But i keep thinking... what if...........

kdrolt

You could -- but that would limit the airflow worse than using a smaller diameter TBI to begin with --- AND you would still have to deal with the idle (pneumatic air) circuit. It might be quite tough to get the engine to idle well because the air passage on LU5/L83 TBI is sized for 2.5 liters, not 1.5 to 2.0 liters. And you'd really need to place a SINGLE TBI unit at the center of the engine, plumbed into the long runner intake manifold,,, rather than a single TBI unit sitting atop each head (which would look cool, but way overkill -- 2 TBI suited for 5.0 liters, being used on a 1.6 liter engine).

Quote:

the dual solex I sold were 44's I am assuming 44mm each..I could be way wrong tho..

Yup. 40, 44, and 48mm diam are the most common sizes for Solex, Weber, and others.

snflupigus

btw, heres why I was asking.




I've been reading up, seems some have been thinking/or doing this already... cant figure it out yet... but i'll keep you all updated. the car will weigh near 1300 lbs i guess and the engines out there that are modified are putting out near 200hp. you do the math. I dont know how, but im told that could be 11s? no?

MrDude_1

awwwww... its cute.



lol, a hp calc i just tried said a 1300lb car with 200 hp could do 11.55

however

if i factor in my fat 200lb butt in there, a 1500lb car can only do a 12.1 with 200hp.




but keep in mind thats just some random 1/4mile calculator.

brharris27370

I have wanted to TBI an volkswagen or an old volvo P1800 that used the 009 Bosh distributor. I would recommend using either the Holley 4 cylinder TBI. I have seen them on ebay pretty cheap and we all know the injectors are bad but its a fair size single bore TBI and would probably work ok. No water jacket for a knock sensor but those VW engines probably make too much noise anyway during normal operation.

snflupigus

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=280

i think i could build that for TONS less.

snflupigus

ok. got more info on these engines.... seems you could get TOPS 250 hp out of them. So i think that crossfire could be ok for an engine like that.

however, that kind of power is made at 8k rpm usually. could crossfire system keep up- speedwise (injectors and ecm) on an engine running that kind of rpm?

I'm guessing no... but. info needed.

Thanks.

25THRSS

I'm not totally sure, but I believe the tbi/crossfire ecm's will not work above 6500 rpm or so. I could be wrong though, so feel free to correct me.