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Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Was thinking of upgrading to the hawks kit that comes with the new crossmember that moves the front mount off the T5 tail shaft. Wondering if there's a noticeable difference. Also, I have Pro Kits installed for springs. Do these really need to a have a relocated LCA bracket for a little over a 1" drop?
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
If you make any sort of power at all than yes an aftermarket torque arm is worth it. Taking the mount from the trans to the crossmember is also a good thing to do. As for relocated LCA bracket, you'll be fine. I am sure I will get flamed for this but I am lowered, have sticky tires and make over 500 at the wheels and don't have any issues with the LCA's in the stock location.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Originally Posted by ShiftyCapone
If you make any sort of power at all than yes an aftermarket torque arm is worth it. Taking the mount from the trans to the crossmember is also a good thing to do. As for relocated LCA bracket, you'll be fine. I am sure I will get flamed for this but I am lowered, have sticky tires and make over 500 at the wheels and don't have any issues with the LCA's in the stock location.
Thanks for the input. I'm probably somewhere in the neighborhood of the high 300's
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
The stock torque arm is pretty pathetic once you get it out and look at it. I do recommend an adjustable arm though. It will give you the adjustability to dial in your pinion angle wherever you suspension mods take you.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Do either of you drag race? As in, at a track? This is where you'll find the LCA relocation brackets helpful. Especially so if haven't got a drag racing suspension.
When I was racing with 300 at the rear tires, the downward angle of the control arm (in a lowered car that made from the rear of the control arm to higher than the front) would allow the rear suspension to completely unload and no amount of sticky tires (I ran several kind of of slicks) would keep the rear planted. By adjusting the control arm via the bracket to achieve an upward attitude (that is the front point is higher than the rear point) then on acceleration the rear axle is pushed into the ground thereby getting that weight transfer to work as it should.
Continuing with the racing theme, I've an aftermarket torque arm (UMI adjustable) and having the ability to adjust the pinion angle is nice.
Having said that, mine was attached to the tail housing of the transmission and I raced that way for years. Remember though that that was with a lower HP car.
I did manage a 1.7 60' and went mid 12's however going forward I'll be divorcing the arm from the transmission and fixing it to the crossmember.
I think that's a better idea overall.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
In my car, putting in a Spohn one felt like I had taken out a giant bowl of oatmeal from somewhere and replaced it with something solid. Didn't fix the wheel hop I was trying to get rid of, but it SURE DID tighten up the car.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Mine is purely a street machine. I'll never race it. But that little T5 is stressed enough without the torque arm. I'll eventually swap it for a TKO. I suppose I don't need anything drag rated but something better would be nice.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
That's pretty much a drag-race-only type of setup. REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY raises the car's instant center. Good for max hookup in acceleration; not so good under braking (will tend to cause wheel hop under hard braking).
The Spohn one, and others of that general design, relocate the TA mount to the crossmember, in some way or other. Leaves the suspension geometry closer to stock. They come with their own crossmember as well, thus also taking a source of flex out of the suspension at that point.
In my case, I was trying to get rid of wheel hop on the street. It was UNBEARABLE. I was constantly breaking parts from the hammering the whole drive train was giving itself. The TA didn't really change that all that much although, as said, it dramatically improved the feel of the car overall. What FINALLY got rid of it was LCA relocation brackets. If I had replaced those parts in the other order I probably would have had trouble with the "springy" and "bendy" stock TA more than I did.
I later ended up with a T-56 and the Spohn setup for that. I still have the T-5 / 700R4 one sitting around in case I ever want to put an egg back in my drivetrain to break often.
Adjustable pinion angle is "nice" but in the grand scheme of things, not always particularly useful or significant. Removing parts that bend and store energy, and release it later in unpredictable ways, IS however always a worthy goal.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 03-28-2024 at 10:55 AM.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Originally Posted by sofakingdom
The Spohn one, and others of that general design, relocate the TA mount to the crossmember, in some way or other. Leaves the suspension geometry closer to stock. They come with their own crossmember as well, thus also taking a source of flex out of the suspension at that point.
.
That's what I figured that UMI one was going to do. Relocate the mount to the crossmember.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Originally Posted by sofakingdom
Your link says "Tunnel Mounted Torque Arm". That's different from "crossmember mounted torque arm".
Research carefully.
Now I'm confused. The one in that link runs down the tunnel like the stock one and mounts to the cross member. Are the ones that mount to the tunnel not considerably shorter?
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Getting rig of the stamped POS torque arm is the move. I have a spohn adjustable and am happy w it. It worked great w the t5 I used to have. There was plenty of clearance (less on the t56) I would highly recommend the trailing arms and relocation brackets. I used to have all poly bushings and now have spohn roto-joints. I'm so much happier w the rotos. I used to think all the fancy red/black parts were a bit of a gimmick. They're not, I'm well aware the solid joints are not for everyone but the back of the car is solid w it all. I'd stick w the longer torque arm and not the tunnel mount one.
something to think about, buying the adjustable parts may be less/not necessary now but down the road may be beneficial if your needs change. As you mod stuff/increase power you may want it. Buying stuff a second time kind of sucks!
the link and pic don't match for the torque arm link.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Now I'm confused. The one in that link runs down the tunnel like the stock one and mounts to the cross member. Are the ones that mount to the tunnel not considerably shorter?
Can't say. All I can do is read the text of the link, which rather clearly says "Tunnel Mounted Torque Arm". Beyond that, it isn't completely clear.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Originally Posted by sofakingdom
Can't say. All I can do is read the text of the link, which rather clearly says "Tunnel Mounted Torque Arm". Beyond that, it isn't completely clear.
So that one has the torque arm go to a point level with the cross member a bit behind it. There's another cross member that has a bracket on top of the cross member and to the side of the transmission that would Mimic the mount on the T5. Maybe that's the difference between tunnel mount and the other mount
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Traditionally a tunnel mounted TA has it's own crossmember that's fitted roughly mid way between the trans and differential. It's shorter than the OEM version and as such will impart different characteristics on the suspension. Think instant centre.
I do see though that there are some that incorporate the transmission crossmember and then relocate the the front TA attachment further down the the tunnel.
The pictures above are UMI's with an independent crossmember. They also make a trans crossmember type with they also call tunnel mount. That is kind of confusing and somewhat misleading.
As for the Hawk's version posted above, seeing that there's a transmission crossmember in the picture, it's a safe bet that's it's not a true tunnel mount. They do divorce the TA from the transmission though.
That said, the shackle style front pivot tend to problematic on the street. Evidence points to them being noisy and having a tendency to bind. @QwkTrip
An excellent torque arm thread by Mr. Q is linked below.
From some of the high powered third gen racers I've talked with, the preferred front attachment is tubular. @vorteciroc
This would also be transmission crossmember mounted.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
@skinny z great info! Thanks. That's what I thought, the tunnel mount uses an auxiliary cross member. So that Hawks one I'm looking at is indeed a TA relocation mount style off the cross member. They misrepresented it I guess
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Originally Posted by EDGE
@skinny z great info! Thanks. That's what I thought, the tunnel mount uses an auxiliary cross member. So that Hawks one I'm looking at is indeed a TA relocation mount style off the cross member. They misrepresented it I guess
Seems to be the case. But they're not alone. UMI does the same thing. They offer two styles both called "tunnel mount". One comes off of the transmission crossmember with a TA mount extension rearward. The other has it's own crossmember (as pictured above).
That's something I've learned today!
With respect to the forward bushing or shackle, you have to consider that the arm not only moves for and aft but also radially. I can see where the tubular style bushing would be functionally the best if you had to turn as well as going straight.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
EDIT: Digging deeper, I see the picture of the separate torque arm crossmember and TA is actually for a 4th gen.
That said, there are real tunnel mounted TAs available for our cars. I've seen them.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Originally Posted by skinny z
Seems to be the case. But they're not alone. UMI does the same thing. They offer two styles both called "tunnel mount". One comes off of the transmission crossmember with a TA mount extension rearward. The other has it's own crossmember (as pictured above).
That's something I've learned today!
With respect to the forward bushing or shackle, you have to consider that the arm not only moves for and aft but also radially. I can see where the tubular style bushing would be functionally the best if you had to turn as well as going straight.
So that UMI I posted, is that considered a shackle mount? Maybe this is the way to go https://www.hawksmotorsports.com/82-...i-performance/ as I don't want to hear clunking and banging. I believe this setup just moved the TA off the tail shaft and uses the factory style mount.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Originally Posted by EDGE
So that UMI I posted, is that considered a shackle mount? Maybe this is the way to go https://www.hawksmotorsports.com/82-...i-performance/ as I don't want to hear clunking and banging. I believe this setup just moved the TA off the tail shaft and uses the factory style mount.
Yes, the UMI first posted is a shackle style.
The crossmember just linked is a relocation crossmember as you believe it is. It'll require the bushing that's specific to the TA you get. I've Holley/Hooker's version of that crossmember. I've a torque arm that has the "W" shaped end with a bushing to match and the bushing fits into the clamshell hardware provided. Might even be that the Spohn round ended TA (top pick in this camp) and bushing would work as I think all of the bushing have the same dimension regardless of style ("W" left and right orientation and round).
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Originally Posted by skinny z
Yes, the UMI first posted is a shackle style.
The crossmember just linked is a relocation crossmember as you believe it is. It'll require the bushing that's specific to the TA you get. I've Holley/Hooker's version of that crossmember. I've a torque arm that has the "W" shaped end with a bushing to match and the bushing fits into the clamshell hardware provided. Might even be that the Spohn round ended TA (top pick in this camp) and bushing would work as I think all of the bushing have the same dimension regardless of style ("W" left and right orientation and round).
Now it all makes sense. BMR and UMI have the setups I'm looking for. Thanks for clearing that up. Strange though that the adjustable ones are cheaper than the fixed ones. You'd think that would be the other way around.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Originally Posted by EDGE
Now it all makes sense. BMR and UMI have the setups I'm looking for. Thanks for clearing that up. Strange though that the adjustable ones are cheaper than the fixed ones. You'd think that would be the other way around.
Seems to me I may have made it even more confusing!
But it appears that all "tunnel mounted" torque arms are not created equally. I think a better definition of the categories would be: transmission mounted, crossmember mounted and lastly tunnel mounted. The latter having it's own crossmember. Placement of the crossmember however is brand/model specific.
I've a modified OEM transmission crossmember made to provide maximum clearance for my Y-pipe (from long tube headers). If all goes to plan, it'll be another trip to my favourite chassis shop to have that trans support further modified to accept the torque arm.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
UMI's terminology is causing confusion because there really are "tunnel mounted" torque arms that are completely different from what they are selling. When words fail, just look at the pictures.
The only true bolt-on products (regardless of manufacturer) are arms that mount to stock location on transmission, or a "relocated" mount that is fixed to a new transmission crossmember that comes with the kit. All other styles of torque arms will require you to weld or drill holes in your car to make provisions for the front mount.
If the front mount has a 2-piece clamshell bushing, then it is a slider type (similar to stock). This is preferred.
If the front mount has a round bushing for a thru-bolt, then it is a shackle mount (swing plate).
If mounting to stock location on transmission, it will always be a 2-piece clamshell bushing. If mounting to a "relocated" position on the transmission crossmember, the mount style will vary depending on what the manufacturer chooses to sell.
Sometimes manufacturers (but not the case with UMI) offer weaker and stronger versions of torque arms. If you get an adjustable torque arm (meaning there is adjuster to tilt the axle pinion angle up and down), and there is a choice of weaker rod ends versus stronger rod ends.... then ALWAYS get the stronger version with the bigger, stronger, higher quality rod ends.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
UMI's terminology is causing confusion because there really are "tunnel mounted" torque arms that are completely different from what they are selling. When words fail, just look at the pictures.
The only true bolt-on products (regardless of manufacturer) are arms that mount to stock location on transmission, or a "relocated" mount that is fixed to a new transmission crossmember that comes with the kit. All other styles of torque arms will require you to weld or drill holes in your car to make provisions for the front mount.
If the front mount has a 2-piece clamshell bushing, then it is a slider type (similar to stock). This is preferred.
If the front mount has a round bushing for a thru-bolt, then it is a shackle mount (swing plate).
If mounting to stock location on transmission, it will always be a 2-piece clamshell bushing. If mounting to a "relocated" position on the transmission crossmember, the mount style will vary depending on what the manufacturer chooses to sell.
Sometimes manufacturers (but not the case with UMI) offer weaker and stronger versions of torque arms. If you get an adjustable torque arm (meaning there is adjuster to tilt the axle pinion angle up and down), and there is a choice of weaker rod ends versus stronger rod ends.... then ALWAYS get the stronger version with the bigger, stronger, higher quality rod ends.
Thanks for the info. Definitely going with the cross member relocation mount vs the shackle. I'll lose my mind with the banging and I'm not racing the car.
Re: Is there a noticeable difference with an aftermarket torque arm?
Originally Posted by skinny z
Traditionally a tunnel mounted TA has it's own crossmember that's fitted roughly mid way between the trans and differential. It's shorter than the OEM version and as such will impart different characteristics on the suspension. Think instant centre.
I do see though that there are some that incorporate the transmission crossmember and then relocate the the front TA attachment further down the the tunnel.
The pictures above are UMI's with an independent crossmember. They also make a trans crossmember type with they also call tunnel mount. That is kind of confusing and somewhat misleading.
As for the Hawk's version posted above, seeing that there's a transmission crossmember in the picture, it's a safe bet that's it's not a true tunnel mount. They do divorce the TA from the transmission though.
That said, the shackle style front pivot tend to problematic on the street. Evidence points to them being noisy and having a tendency to bind. @QwkTrip
An excellent torque arm thread by Mr. Q is linked below.
From some of the high powered third gen racers I've talked with, the preferred front attachment is tubular. @vorteciroc
This would also be transmission crossmember mounted.
Indeed!
I very much feel that a Tubular-End for the Torque-Arm, is the way to go.
The Shackle Style End Torque-Arms have been problematic, even with lower powered Vehicles.
I have found that there are many situations where the Shackle will get into a bind...
Rendering the Rear Suspension into a position of Traction Loss.
Unfortunately there is NO Perfect Design for the Front Mount of the Torque-Arm...
They all have issues, but I find the Tubular-End to be the least Problematic.
The Transmission Cross-Member mounted Torque-Arms provide a solution for those that can not Fabricate (themselves), or have Sub-Frame Connectors.
That's all I really think about them, as they are acceptable... just not ideal.
Ideally, I would more so prefer a dedicated Cross-Member for the Torque-Arm.
However, the dedicated Cross-Member should be close to the Transmission Cross-Member.
Trying to keep the Torque-Arm as long as possible (the Leverage here is the Main Benefit of this Design Rear Suspension)...
Is very important!
Having proper Sub-Frame Connections and a Uni-Body/ Frame that is tied together into a harmonious structure is critical.
I would like to have the Drive-Shaft Safety Loop attached to the Transmission Cross-Member, but that's it.
Some Racing Classes will want to see Dual Drive-Shaft Safety Loops...
In this situation, I would attach the Rear Drive-Shaft Safety Loop to the Torque-Arm.
03-28-2024, 06:35 AM
