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At what point, wheel size and balljoint length, does interference become a problem?
My current "street" wheels and tires are some Z06 17x9F (265 40 17) and 18x10.5R (305 35 18) with 2" spacers. I have/want to run 1" extended ball joints but from what I hear that is likely to interfere with those wheels. Other wheel/tire combinations that the car sees are stock 'bird 15x7 wheels with 235/60-15F and 275/60-15 DR's R (I'm not sure if I've heard of anything about these clearing) and Draglites in 15x4 with skinnies on the F (28x10 Slicks rear), which I don't expect to have problems with. At some point, I'll have to pick an Autox wheel/tire for it but for now that will be the street tires.
What are the limitations with extended ball joints (if you mention wheel sizes/offsets/backspacing please mention if you have a brake conversion that adds brake hub thickness or anything that moves the wheel from the 0offset/2" spacer location). Do 3/4" or 1/2" leave you more clearance over the 1" taller joints?
Where are you expecting to have interference? I'm running 1" BJ's with stock IROCs and LS1 brakes. I've test fitted Weld Venturas 18x9.5x0mm and stock C5 Z06 fronts with 2" spacers, and I'm 99% sure I did that AFTER the BJ install, but I can go test fit em and photograph em if you'd like. Not sure I can get to that before the weekend though.
EDIT....I was test fitting just for fun, not specifically for the BJ's so I'm not sure how much clearance there is. Been running the IROCs for awhile, so that's no issue. I'd think the bigger the better. Heard plenty about the bump steer kit with wider 17"s, but hadn't heard about issues with extended BJs. (trying not to laugh, LOL)
Depends on your wheel combo.
you could use a 2in extended ball joint if you have a wheel where the tie rods are not inside the shell.
The issue isn't the ball joint, but fixing bump steer caused by extending the ball joint.
typically you'd have to lower the tie rod equal to the extended ball joint length.
that makes the tie rods SUPER close or too close to the wheel.
Depends on your combo if that interferes or not.
I've run 18x11s with a +1/2 and stock lenght ball joints
It's tight, very tight.
About 0.180in or 3/16in gap between the wheel and the bump steer bolt. It basically requires an expensive low profile grade 9 bolt to clear.
Generally speaking, if 0.1 seconds is the difference between winning and losing for you, go ahead and run extended ball joints. & Expect to spend a lot of time with a bump steer gauge.If 0.1 seconds doesn't break you, don't bother.
The short version is- because of life happening and not being able to get some parts (some of the supply chain **** sucks, I wanted for a month for spark plugs for a honda) the car got disassembled in the driveway with all sorts of intentions but now the county is on my case and it needs to be reassembled and driven in the next few weeks. Because of that too many hiccups in what's left and I have a big problem.
What's on it- custom tubular K, most of a weight jack setup (I'm trying to finish, I'm also missing some stuff I had CNC cut at the beginning of this which might change how this looks if I don't find it soon), a brake swap (an odd one that I've never seen anyone do, and I'm sure will be fine on the street and the strip but I'm not sure what I'll think on an autox or road course, I think I have everything I just need to rebuild the calipers and test fit everything), caster/camber plates, tubular a-arms, 1" extended ball joints (I don't have any shorter ones that will fit, not sure that stock ones will). I'm hoping that my street rims/tires and an assortment of 15's will clear/fit. The springs, for now, will be either cut WS6 (I had a set that hasn't sagged...) or cut Eibach pros (I have both cut, blasted, and powder coated), the idea is to get the spring rate where I want it by cutting, adjust the ride height with the weight jacks and then figure out if I'm going to spend money on other springs later). I have half a dozen different f/r sway bars that have been cleaned and powder coated.
I have some drop spindles that are not happening, they are about 90% done (made, parts welded, parts tacked, specifically the steering arms...) that would require working out stockish height bjs, that last 10% is going to take more time than I have. I have new inner/outer tierods... but I don't have time to work out a bump steer kit, I'm hoping that the car will be driveable without.
For now, I just need the 17x9s to go on there with stock tie rod ends. In the long run, I don't like low profile tires (look wise on these cars and back in the 90's I tested my car on 15s and 16s, same width Hoosier race slicks on 8" wide corvette rally wheels and ran significantly faster on the 15's), I'm hoping to find something that handles well and fits on this combination on a 8-11" wide 15" rim. If that doesn't work out I'll look for 16 and 17s, I don't see myself going 18s unless I can't get anything else to fit.
Lots of pieces and parts! haha! ....I hear ya on the low profile tires. I love stock 16's. Understand the want to bigger brakes and wider rubber, but just for the looks, I love the 16. I read a LOT about bumpsteer with these cars, and more than a few people had some rough tie rod geometry, only to find that it didn't impact the handling as much as originally thought. From what I've read though, if you DO use a bumpsteer kit, you've gotta be under 9" wide or OVER 17" diameter. -at least from everything that I've seen.
Honestly man, it sounds like you do not know what exactly your build is gonna be.
in that case, DO not install extended ball joints
You will complicate something that doesn't need to be messed with.
Remember, extended ball joints=crazy bad bump steer. Unless ur willing to dial that bump steer out, your car will be vastly slower.
Lots of pieces and parts! haha! ....I hear ya on the low profile tires. I love stock 16's.
I have 2 sets of "hi-tech" 16's (the TA/formula 16" wheels which I don't mind the look of, but
they're super heavy, about 56-58# per wheel/tire.
Do good tires still exist for them? Especially bigger tires? Tires like BFG R1's used to exist in 255/50-16, and there were Hoosiers in 275/45-16, but I don't think any of those still exist. What are you running?
In my case, I've widened some of the 15" 'bird wheels (well cut the back half off and swapped back pieces so I ended up with a pair of 15x9.5s and a pair of 15x4s out of one set of 15x7s, I'm trying to dig up some more to make a dedicated set of drag wheels/tires, and an autox set, the front width will depend on what will clear, but I would love some 15x9.5" on all 4. No, I have no idea what tires I'd run but the wider pair with a set of 26x10.5" slicks on them weigh 34#
Second, Understand the want to bigger brakes and wider rubber, but just for the looks, I love the 16.
You can get enough stopping power to lock up the brakes/flat spot some substantial tires/modulate stopping power with some pretty small rotors. The problem is dissipating heat for repeated stops or high-speed stops in racing situations, which is the driving factor for the ever-larger brakes. You can also deal with some of this with more aggressive brake pads. My "experiment" is swapping C4, non HD brakes. They'll give me bigger brakes but also about 12# lighter per side and look like they'll fit under 15s. I'm sure they'll be fine on the street, I'm hoping that I can make them work for autox, if not I might try going with aftermarket rotors (possibly thicker with HD calipers) that I should still be able to get under 15s. My rears are LT1 f-body brakes, which have advantages over 3rd gen rear brakes but are a hair smaller in diameter but the calipers are much beefier (I needed to do a lot of machining to get them to fit under some 15s).
I read a LOT about bumpsteer with these cars, and more than a few people had some rough tie rod geometry, only to find that it didn't impact the handling as much as originally thought.
Yea, I haven't been paying attention to things around here much lately, but now that I think about it I do remember someone posting that they spent a lot of time fixing the bump steer on their car and then found they didn't feel the difference driving the car.
Part of the trick to make these cars work well is to limit suspension travel more than most cars in the front, which will limit the effects of bump steer... I think I might not worry about it at all, for now, revisit when/if I see a problem.
From what I've read though, if you DO use a bumpsteer kit, you've gotta be under 9" wide or OVER 17" diameter. -at least from everything that I've seen.
I'm curious how different it is with stock tie rod ends.
Originally Posted by McLovin1181
Honestly man, it sounds like you do not know what exactly your build is gonna be.
I know EXACTLY what I'm building. I'm building what my first and second 3rd gens and one of my 4th gens were: a car built for nearly ultimate handling (staying with stockish geometry and street car usability), built like a road racer but that does most of its racing at the dragstrip and occasionally autox. But when it comes down to it it will be used on the street more than the rest. It may not make sense to a lot of people but it makes me happy. It doesn't significantly compromise dragstrip use until the car gets very fast, just makes it a little harder to go as fast, but when you want to delaminate your (or your passenger's) butt cheeks on some winding back roads you can scare the **** out of 99% of people that will get in your car.
It's what makes me happy. I used to autox competitively and do some road racing in the '90s and heck, in the mid/late 90's early 2000's I had a 3rd gen and a 4th gen (my only cars at the time) that I only owned drag and road racing slicks for yet drove one or the other to work every day, even in the snow if need be. For a while my winter tires were some McReary bias ply I think they were asphalt or dirt track tires, which had very minimal tread but actually worked OK in bad weather. I even took the 3rd gen on some road trips (and I was young and stupid and got pulled over at 118 in a 50). I really miss that car. Just because it doesn't seem to make sense to you doesn't mean I don't know what I want.
Remember, extended ball joints=crazy bad bump steer. Unless ur willing to dial that bump steer out, your car will be vastly slower.
Has anyone actually gone slower because of bump steer, like documented? Like I said earlier and I believe that Abubaca alluded to that there have been people that posted spending a lot of time fixing bump steer on their cars and didn't feel a difference driving them, but again, I haven't been paying that much attention around here in recent years.
Maybe for a point of reference, I'm currently running a 1/2" taller ball joint with a bump steer kit, LS1 brakes, 2" wheel spacer with 17x9.5 ZO6 wheels. Grain of salt, car is not on the road yet so no real world testing has been done yet, bump steer has not been adjusted but extended all the way out I'm able to get 3/16" of a gap between inner rim and bump steer bolt, I opted to drill out the outer tie rod connection point instead of using a tapered adapter.
Should be the same I'd think. BJ moves the whole spindle, and both the wheel and bump steer/tie rod are referenced off that sooooo.... I dunno, just me thinking out loud
I have had 1/2'' XBJ for a good many years now and while racing on the track the bump steer isnt as noticeable as some good old back road corner carving. Now with the bump steer kit added just last year its a night and day difference on the street and no complaints at the track but my car does work pretty well
Maybe for a point of reference, I'm currently running a 1/2" taller ball joint with a bump steer kit, LS1 brakes, 2" wheel spacer with 17x9.5 ZO6 wheels. Grain of salt, car is not on the road yet so no real world testing has been done yet, bump steer has not been adjusted but extended all the way out I'm able to get 3/16" of a gap between inner rim and bump steer bolt, I opted to drill out the outer tie rod connection point instead of using a tapered adapter.
Why did you opt for drilling over the taper?
It looks like UMI has 2 kits, identical except if they come with the tapered stud or a 5/8" bolt. They both cost the same and otherwise appear to be the same, the bolt one has an extra letter in the PN and is called their HD kit. I'm kind of leaning toward getting the tapered stud one and if I want to go drilling the steering arm or have some problem with the tapered stud I can get a 5/8" bolt anywhere.
It looks like UMI has 2 kits, identical except if they come with the tapered stud or a 5/8" bolt. They both cost the same and otherwise appear to be the same, the bolt one has an extra letter in the PN and is called their HD kit. I'm kind of leaning toward getting the tapered stud one and if I want to go drilling the steering arm or have some problem with the tapered stud I can get a 5/8" bolt anywhere.
my main reason was I expecting clearance issues with the 17x9.5 Z06 wheels I’m running, secondary was the 5/8” grade 8 bolt is going to be stronger option. What I didn’t know was what to expect with the combination of LS1 front brakes, 1/2” taller BJ’s and 17x9.5 wheels so using the 5/8” bolt I felt would give me more options on getting the angle of the tie rods to match the angle of the lower control arms. With my setup I’m able to get a 3/16” gap between the rim barrel and the rod end. The control arm at full droop sits at 14 degrees and the tie rod sits at 12 degrees. Not having any experience with the tapered adapter I wasn’t sure if I would of been able to get that close to matching the angle also I wanted to use safety washers and Seals It rod end seal and your kinda limited to a certain thread length with the tapered adapters, I can a 5/8” bolt as long as I need since it’s not the bolt that’s going to cause interference.
FYI the jam nut in the picture is only being used for mock up, a 5/8” nyloc is being used for final assembly.
es
I ended up calling UMI and asking about their 2 kits and basically got the answer that the tapered studs tend to get bent, anything that you're going to actually drive hard get the HD with the bolt. I mentioned that I was originally going to get the stud and figured if I bent the stud I can always swap some 5/8" bolts in, and he added that they come with a longer shim pack and you'll probably pay $10-15 each for that size 5/8" bolt, each.
10-12-2022, 03:54 PM
