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"Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
Guys, I have questions about the Toe/Total Toe specs on the recommended alignments specs.
First...Does anyone out there have the ACTUAL factory alignment specs? Curious to see them.
Second, I've attached Reid Flemmings alignment specs which have been floating around TGO for awhile.
Question is in regard to the Toe. He shows it here measured in inches. Isn't toe measured in degrees? And if it's in inches, ok, but then how is that measurement taken? ,,,and secondly, is it toe IN or toe OUT???
Note that both camber and caster are positive. And toe can be a tad in or a tad out.
As for the toe being in inches instead of degrees. It has been a while since I did the alignment, but it is either inches over a certain distance, or converted from degrees to inches over a certain distance (easy geometry). I don't recall what method I used other then measuring it at the wheel lip via a 6" steel scale. Using laser pointers to shoot down the side of the car to measure against.
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
One thing I forgot to mention, is that toe is usually 'in.' As shown in the first post only a short track has toe out. This provides a better turn in on corners and such.
But on the street toe out is/can-be scary. The car wants to dart left & right. No true center tracking. As the same time the toe setting is important as too much causes excessive tire wear.
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
I run a lot of caster and about 1/32" toe out (maybe a smidge more) and car doesn't wander at all. Doesn't even grab ruts in the road. Haven't experimented with toe in yet. It really comes down to how you like the car to feel. Just start somewhere and play with settings to see what you like.
Do negative camber, ignore the idiotic stock specs. Modern performance tires can be really grippy and will work the suspension and need a good amount of negative camber.
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
Thanks for the input guys.
Yeah...I've used Reid's specs before, but I'll admit I kinda just handed 'em to the alignment guy and they seem to work. After a recent alignment on my 88, (maybe you saw my post) I've been chasing some strange behavior and can't rule out a poor alignment. I wanted to be SURE I understood what it was I was asking the tech to do, how it may effect the car, and how it compared to stock GM specs. Just like RBob mentions, the car seems very darty and spastic, as well as not wanting to properly re-center. While I'm no Hunter machine, I SWEAR the wheels are toe OUT. ....anyhow....good news is that I've found a guy at a local shop who's kinda the go-to for performance alignments and I spoke with him today on the phone. He had more to say than I could absorb, but I'm taking the car to him to go back through everything Tuesday. Guess we'll see.
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
You're building a proper car so that means you'll be making small adjustments to the car many times, and even blowing apart the suspension and steering for various reasons. Can't be paying $80 a pop every time you need alignment checked and adjusted. It's time to own some alignment tools.
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
Alignment specs are based to a large extent on car usage and driver expectations. It's not like this is wrong and that is right, for the most part. You pick and choose among what the various settings do, according to what you want the car to do.
My personal preference is not far from the specs you posted; I'd characterize them, in a general way, as something between the "street" and "hard street" choices. They're appropriate to "fun" street driving, reasonable tire life, safety (life preservation), and all such as that. This is NOT necessarily the same as "fastest", whether on a road course, oval track, parking-lot slalom, or anything else. But even on the street, the "best" specs depend on THE STREETS themselves. Concrete (Houston) vs asphalt, high-crown (rainy places like the Southeast) vs dry places like Arizona or Nevada, and so on. And beyond even that, there's the problem of tires... there are for all practical purposes ZERO "performance" oriented tires in size and load ratings appropriate to these cars. Back in the day I could get Pirelli, Michelin, or Bridgestone that were a good match; nowadays, you're lucky to find some crap like a Goodyear, BFG, Cooper, store brand (usually some one of the above just with a different name molded into the sidewall), etc. "Performance" has LONG SINCE moved on from abuncha little weenie pizza-cutter 16" x 8" wheels. We're stuck in the Stone Age unless we're willing to bite off on MODERN wheel configurations.
However all that may be, toe IN is almost always better for the street, although for tight-corner parking lot cone courses, toe OUT is "faster". Never mind that toe OUT will EAT tires ON THE STREET (commuting to work?) like last night's cold pizza when you wake up this morning with a hangover.
THIMK about what the tires see, as you adjust their relative placement, and drive down the street. A "hot street" alignment, with lots of positive caster and a little negative camber, loads the inside edges of the tires; then, with a small amount of toe IN, gives just a small amount of scrub, tending to stand the tires up straight and point them directly ahead, even when going in a straight line. A little toe IN forces the tires to lay flat on the pavement. If you're going straight most of the time, like commuting to work, that's the best compromise. OTOH if you're racing on a course with super tight corners, like a parking-lot slalom, the wheels are turned SO FAR AWAY from straight ALL THE TIME, that straight-line behavior isn't what you're looking for. Butt, if you set up a STREET car like that, you better have a REAL GOOD friend at the tire store, and of course buy stock in your favorite tire company, because there will be some SERIOUS cash flow in that direction.
What do you want your car to do BEST? How do you use it? What is most important TO YOU? (handling, comfort, steering feel, tire wear, suspension part life, fuel economy, ... make a list, and order it in order of importance TO YOU) What are you willing to GIVE UP so that whatever you want "best" can happen? Are you willing to buy a $1000 set of tires every 5000 miles so that you can have a "tight turn-in"? Do you want to be able to wolf down your drive-thru on your way to work while driving with your knee and talking on your phone at the same time? what are you REALLY TRULY HONESTLY looking for?
Last edited by sofakingdom; 07-27-2021 at 11:06 PM.
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
Originally Posted by sofakingdom
Are you willing to buy a $1000 set of tires every 5000 miles
More often than that....
I don't collect many miles. I've never had a tire wear out on the front. It just gets hard after a couple years and I throw it away. I can hardly keep a tire on the rear for 1000 miles though. This year I went to a square setup so I'm rotating tires and I expect to actually use up all 4 tires as they take turns on the rear.
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
I definitely get all that. How I'll use the car is still up in the air. I'd like to say that the car will see some track days/HDPE events regularly, but....I can't swear that'll happen. If it DOES....I'll probably want to look into some tools. If not.....I may get that street/hard street spec alignment and call it good. I had the "street" spec alignment on my 89 and frankly the car handled great. It was the ride quality that I didn't like, so I'll do the 88 a little different. I'll definitely tinker with it a bit. I'm totally a fan of the "how will you use it" question, and I know enough about myself to not quite know how to answer just yet!
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
Originally Posted by Abubaca
I'd like to say that the car will see some track days/HDPE events regularly, but....I can't swear that'll happen.
Me neither.... I used to think that would be fun and then I met co-workers that do it and changed my mind. They're constantly breaking something, losing engines, killing transmissions, going through wear items and fluids like no tomorrow, adding coolers for this and that and these and those, and some of them even crash the car. It's a very expensive hobby. And the guys with LS engines seem to have the worst luck of 'em all with oiling problems - especially the harder the car can corner.
If I did HPDE I would de-tune my engine with lower lift cam, lower rpm, add an Accusump, have to improve the PCV setup, and add multiple coolers that I don't have right now.
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
Me neither.... I used to think that would be fun and then I met co-workers that do it and changed my mind. They're constantly breaking something, losing engines, killing transmissions, going through wear items and fluids like no tomorrow, adding coolers for this and that and these and those, and some of them even crash the car. It's a very expensive hobby. And the guys with LS engines seem to have the worst luck of 'em all with oiling problems - especially the harder the car can corner.
Yeah....well that's part of what I say I'm not "sure", lol. Not to get into a deeper conversation, but I 100%, no joke, avoid things that I know I'll love simply because I can't NOT spend money on every one of my various addictions. Expensive mountain bike?-check. Tons of hockey gear? -check. Paintball? -check. Guns? -check. 2 grills and 2 smokers? -check. Multiple cars, not counting my wife's car? -check!!!!!! LOL...somehow I feel I'm in the right place on this forum though!
Money for everything? NOT check!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
Originally Posted by Abubaca
Interesting post. ....also that mention of not going too low because of the positive gain. Not the first time I've heard of that.
I'll tell ya, I started out low with the weight jacks and it rode horrible and spun tires like crazy. Been raising it every year (I'm a slow learner ) and car keeps working better and better. Right now I'd guessing I'm about 1" lowered, but who knows, I haven't seen a stock ride height in 25 years.
The harder you push your car, and the more power you make, the more the shortfalls will show up. I have to manage a lot of power so I'm getting more in tune with those things, but I don't race so I'm still not in tune with certain things that become more obvious when you're on track. Like I know I have bump steer but I really don't care yet.
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
Yeah....like everything else....the suspension has to work as a system, not just cobbled together parts. A modest group of parts that works well together is better than a hodge podge of high end parts that are constantly fighting each other. True for every other part of the car, no reason suspension would be different, lol.
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
More often than that....
I don't collect many miles. I've never had a tire wear out on the front. It just gets hard after a couple years and I throw it away. I can hardly keep a tire on the rear for 1000 miles though. This year I went to a square setup so I'm rotating tires and I expect to actually use up all 4 tires as they take turns on the rear.
Are you saying tires get less soft as they age? Or maybe grippy is a better description?
Re: "Toe" Questions about recommended alignment specs.
Originally Posted by LiquidBlue
Are you saying tires get less soft as they age? Or maybe grippy is a better description?
Yes, oxidation causes tires to harden and lose grip and integrity with time, like the old brittle rubber bands lost in the back of your desk drawer. Tires have a build date and an expiration date. Other factors accelerate the degradation of the rubber too. Generally, the softer the rubber (lower tread wear rating) the quicker the degradation and wear.
07-27-2021, 08:08 AM
) and car keeps working better and better. Right now I'd guessing I'm about 1" lowered, but who knows, I haven't seen a stock ride height in 25 years.
