W.E.G.

I'm gonna replace the ancient-alien struts on my 88 V6 soon.

I keep hearing mention of KONI yellows.

I'm not as much concerned about price, as I am about comfortable ride. I'm not a racer. I'm into this car because I'm a wrencher and procrastinator. I mainly drive it around town every other sunny Thursday, and grin at the local fuzz while I rattle and backfire through their speed traps at 21mph in first gear.

I aspire more to be like the Cheshire Cat than any notion of being "The Stig."

Are KONI yellows, and hard poly bushings really the right for a guy who is looking for a tighter, and less-harsh, ride?

My other cars are a Camry and a 2011 SS Camaro.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Harsh compared to what?
Poly bushings and Konis are harsher than rubber pieces but if your stock bushings are deteriorated than you might not notice any change.
Poly and Konis are much harsher than a Camry, worse than a new Camaro SS? I've never been in one so I couldn't say. The Konis have three settings so on their softest setting they would probably be the same.

In the end if you are not wanting to take this car on an autocross/road course regularly the Koni yellows will be overkill. Look into a set of KYB AGX shock/struts.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

Konis are adjustable, so on lower settings at not very harsh. As for poly bushings, dont bother. If its more of a driver just leave them alone unless they are shot.

W.E.G.

What I want should be simple, and high-quality.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Any mid-level shock/strut will work fine for you but if you have the money and you want Koni Yellows then by all means, go for it.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Six cylinder you can get away with almost anything. When you get into the FE2 cars (Z28s, WS6 Firebirds, Irocs) most any of the budget shocks and struts really aren't able to dampen the stiffer coil springs.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...og-5662-a.html

My review of Koni yellows. Check out post #8. Suffice to say, they make the car a joy to drive. Even for casual relaxed driving, you can tell a difference. If you can swing the cost, I'd recommend them.

Camaro86IrocZ

iTrader: (1)

lol, I have to agree with Drew's post above yours Reid.. The O.P. has a V-6 car = softer springs and smaller sway bars than that WS6 setup.. Koni yellows may be a bit over kill.. unless the O.P. upgrades those springs as well.. bigger sway bars ect.. then of course need a bigger motor to weigh down the springs...

W.E.G.

I do appreciate the input.

I realize that the shock-damper business has to be tough. Each vendor wants to differentiate their product by adding something to it, or specializing it in some way.

My V6 car might do 100, flat-out, downhill.

For now, I'm more concerned about that passenger side self-disassembling when I'm in a turn at 48 mph.

This car is not likely to ever be dressed-up to the point of being a genuine "performance" car - maybe if for no other reason than I already have such a beast, which will do 100 easily. In third gear.

So, this car is just a my rat-roddish science project, and trip down memory lane for wrenching. I am going to rebuild the front suspension with all new rubber bits, and new shock absorbers (yeah... "struts" I know). I don't mind paying for quality. I do sort of mind paying for features I'll never use. If a strut has an adjustment **** on it, that's something I'll never use - at least not unless I go nuts and decide to spend the $$$ and time "dropping an LS" in it.

Seeing as how I ALREADY have an LS car, I can only drive one LS at a time. I like winding out the gears in the little V6. Second gear tops out around 45. Third gear around 70. Fourth gear quits pulling under normal load at about 90-95. Fifth gear really just saves the motor and gas a bit once you hit cruising speed at 60 or better.

Maybe I should have asked, "What is the best-made "non-adjustable" strut?" I get it that such a question - in car enthusiast circles - is sort of like asking "Which is the prettiest ugly girl?" But, I think that is what I'm asking in this context.

SlickTrackGod

Lets clarify some misconceptions on shock dampening.

Shock dampening pretty much goes like this-
You have compression valving with is how much resistance the shock is when making it shorter from mount to mount..

and then you have rebound valving which is how much resistance to pull the shock apart (lengthen it)

I have no clue why so many here have said Konis are only for stiffer springs- nothing is farther from the truth- why?- because Konis have a higher "fixed" (meaning non-adjustable) compression valving and an adjustable rebound valving. Spring compression and shock compression are a give and take. THe higher you have one, the lower you need the other. Rebound settings however need to be higher to counteract a stiffer spring car.

SO......on soft srings the higher valved Koni is actually an asset so you do not need to add stiffer springs to get a slightly sportier ride. Other shocks you do. Now the rebound valves like stated above can be adjusted to control body roll via stiffer settings, but if you go too stiff you know it because the ride becomes harsh and the shock fails to release and follow the road contour.

Koni Yellows are excellent for a stock suspension V6.

W.E.G.

That's a very good explanation of the dynamic action that occurs.

Thanks!

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

This thread, along with the other one Reid posted, just made me spend over a $1000 on Konis, Springs, and STB for my 89 TTA......Thanks a lot guys!

W.E.G.

We won't hold it against you.

Most of us flail our Camaros and Firebirds with our purses relentlessly.

I'm gonna be needing a new strap soon. I wonder if Hawks carries them with logos?

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

^^^^^Really, I hear ya!

McLovin1181

Not to hijack this thread, but would I need an alignment if I went from fairly new KYB struts to Koni yellows?
i got the proper 3rd gen alignment like 3000 miles ago and don''t want to spend another $100 to get another.
Unfortunately, KYBs are not even close to being good enough for the Autocross I do now

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Wait to start replacing new items with better items until your autocross times are consistent. No need to upgrade parts to better parts if you can't drive to the car's full potential. But if your times are consistent the whole day then go for it.

You should not need a new alignment if you are only changing the struts provided you do not touch the strut mount and the steering angle inclination does not change (13°).

LiquidBlue

I have the yellow Koni's on my '90 WS6 Formula. I feel they are too harsh. It may just be the car of that era. I am due for some bushing replacements, they are 27 year old stock bushings after all, so that could be part of it. The factory originals didn't ride this harsh, and I enjoyed the ride, thought it was perfect 24 years ago. Don't quote me, but I recall someone saying the factory originals were Bilsteins, or designed by them. I still have them, but didn't notice any stamps indicating so - I'll take a closer look if I think of it. I also have a 2004 BMW 545i w/ Sport Pak suspension, and have Bilsteins on it. The ride is perfect. Tight, rebounds quick, holds corners level, and is not bone jarring on every single bump in the road. Perfect dampening. On the other hand, my Formula, I feel it may hurt the car with all the harshness. But she is my baby, I over worry about her sometimes

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

The stock rubber bushings that came out when I put the Del-A-Lum A-arm bushings in were hilarious. The rubber was stiffer than concrete. Like a tank had driven over them. Not surprisingly, I felt no stiffer ride with the Del-A-Lum.

I'm not surprised your BMW rides better over bumps while still being tight in turns and well put together. When I went for a ride in a Z06, I thought it would have a Fred Flintstone ride quality..... It was softer than my GTA (and this was when the GTA had stock struts/shocks). New cars have gotten rid of the idea that good handling = stiff suspension.

You say your Konis are too stiff. What do you have them set at? I run my fronts at 1/2 turn from full soft. The rears are on zero clicks. Though I might up that to 1 click, since it's been 6 years since they went in.

LiquidBlue

Honestly, I forget what I set them at. I need to look. That could be another issue. I was just offering my experience so far, which I admit, is not very scientific, but I had the sense the original thread starter did not require ultra performance, super stiff shocks. If I recall correctly, however I happen to have them set at present time, they are much stiffer than OEM, and I thought the OEM's were a very nice balance, probably somthing the original thread starter is looking for. Of course, a WS6 OEM setup is probably different than a non WS6, and the ride is probably quite different as well.

LiquidBlue

Its also possible I just haven't "broke" them in yet. Very few miles on them.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

LiquidBlue, it could be the roads themselves. Austin's roads are OK but not great. I think Houston has worse roads (more concrete, less blacktop). The Konis are wonderful for being quick and confidence inspiring. But there are certain roads that no matter what you set them at and how slow you drive, you just cringe. No wonder so many Texans drive trucks. You need them for the roads.

SlickTrackGod

THere are many things that make the car ride bad. First and foremost is usually a person puts on larger/wider wheels and tires(which I see is NOT your case). THis makes for heavier unsprung weight that tosses the chassis about.

#2 is not changing the original rubber dounut strut mounts. These are terrible-especially when worn, still not great even when new. THeir is a fair amount of up and down undampened slop in suspension travel with this design, and age will render almost 3/4" of slop which translates into about 1 1/2" of undampened wheel travel. You combine this with a little more resistent valved shock like a Koni and it is like bobblingon a hoppity-hop sitting on a race car and the frequencies will movee the driver in unpredictable movements.
#3 is chassis fatigue/ rattling/ overall tin can effect. THese cars did not have chassis sound deadening like what new cars have. You need to add this as well as perimeter style SFC's stitch welded in increments along the rockers.

#4- heavier sway bars hurt ride quality. Instead of using heavier sway bars to counter act body roll, newer technology you can incorporate into your third gen is to raise the overall roll axis in order to reduce sway bar size and promote independent wheel travel. THis is done via using extended front ball joints to change the front roll center geometry. You can lower the rear, but better to first raise the front with at least 1/2" extended ball joints.

Axle weight- focus on keeping it as low as possible (yes this costs money) this is a big issue with a solid rear axle. light weight componants are key to better ride quality. Understand that polar weight hurts articulation so things like larger brakes and again wheels/tire will toss the driver in the chassis. I even put an extremely lightweight carbon fiber driveshaft into my car to reduce both unsprung AND rotational weight/ Light weight diff cover, drilled axle flanges, 2 piece rotors and alum calipers, cut off any unused parts of relocation brackets to reduce axle weight etc etc. Mount shocks upside down if possible - anything like this is an advantage to gain ride quality.

LiquidBlue

Thanks for that. I haven't done that. My car is a low hour car (airplane speak) so I've been replacing as little as possible, but I'm sure these along with the bushings need it. Your explanation makes sense. I hadn't driven the car since early 2000's because it had been in storage. These sorts of things I'm sure rot away. I know the sway bar bushings sure did.

LiquidBlue

My car spent most of its roll time on Houston freeways at 75mph (and faster) back in the early 90's. Back then the roads were pretty nice. Most still are if you ask me. Except the ones they are getting rebuilt at present time. I haven't had it that fast lately!

SlickTrackGod

For sake of conversation, I did all what I explained to my old 87 Camaro. We acquired the car when it was only 4 years old and it rattled then even when it was fairly new- when you compare it to modern day cars.

I lined the entire floorboard and some strategic small deadening pieces on panels like the roof in very small increments. Tap on it and see what I mean. It doesn;t take much if you get it in the correct spots. Reason I lined the entire floorboard was to improve low and mid chassis sprung weight for ride quality AND handling. Low and between the wheel base. THis counter acts positive roll withj negative roll wieght lowere4 then the roll axis. I spent big bocks on very exotic light weight suspension and brake parts, and I ran 4 "rear" factory IROC wheels which if I recall correctly weigh in at 18lbs and I took off another 1 pound on a friends balancing machine prior to mounting my tires. I focused on ride ratio

I years ago put up a video on my driving my car on the freeway doing about 80mph cruising around some mild hwy bends while steering the car with just my index finger (those as well as all of my old race videos have been long lost). This car was only 24.75" fender lip hieght up front and rode perfectly. Alos pulled an amazing 1.07g on a right hand run skid pad. 1.04 left (on street DOT 220tw tires 8" wide)

LiquidBlue

Interesting, what material did you use?

McLovin1181

Not him, but the formula is:

25% coverage of a CLD tile (fatmat, hushmat, Dyna)
1/8in layer of High density foam
1/8 layer of MLV mass loaded vinyl.

CLD tile reduces vibrations
The foam isolates the vinyl from the metal
The vinyl blocks the sound.

This method is vastly Superior to just coating every pannel with overpriced dynamat.

LiquidBlue

Just following up from a while back - said I'd look at my original shocks, they say Delco along with a part number - no sign of Bilstein.

W.E.G.

I'm a believer in that!

Look at the garbage that came out of my car last week.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

That picture is a good teaching aid for cuts who want to keep the original or don't know what a failed mount looks like.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Never seen one that bad, but I've only had about a dozen thirdgens... Probably a common failure.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I wouldnt bother with Konis. They're nice, but if you're just driving a street car doing street car daily driver things, you're not really going to get your money's worth out of them. They're a great product and I wholeheartedly recommend them, but for someone who's just street driving a v6 car, you can invest that money elsewhere.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I think there are fast Eddie and some other members with 6 cylinders that you could pm about the best way to go about handling and speed on a V6 without ricing it up.