87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'm looking to run extended ball joints to help return the front suspension geometry closer to stock after lowering the car.

I see Howe now offers a fully assembled ball joint that is 0.75" longer than stock. Has anyone run these? Thoughts?

Part number
22429

http://www.howeracing.com/p-7938-how...oog-k6145.aspx

iansane

iTrader: (1)

Aren't there a few other things you have to correct when moving to a longer ball joint? Tie rod drop ("bumpsteer" kit) and some other things? It's been a bit since I did any research on that. Definitely like to hear what you find out though.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

It should actually be the same I think. The extended ball joint will technically "drop" the car ~ 0.75". I will make up for that by adjusting my weight jacks. So the spindle should sit in exactly the same place as it is now, just with a better a-arm angle.

Basically the same idea as drop spindles except without all the other problems they bring.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

You will most likely need.to adjust the bumpsteer, since the control arm stays in place, but the steering are goes up.

I'm using 1/2" tall joints.

If you are using wide front wheels make sure they will.still work if you add a bump steer kit, they should if they are 18 or 19"

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Hey Phil,

Correct me if I am wrong.

I will be compensating for the 0.75" lowering by raising my weight jacks. In essence the tire will be sitting in exactly the same location inside the fender. The car will be at the same ride height. This means that the spindle has to be in the same location as it is now, right? And if the spindle is in the same location, then so is the steering arm.

Am I being dumb?

Wheels should be 19's.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I run the howe .5" taller ball joints. I had to buy the parts individually because they didn't sell a complete joint at the time. Interesting that they sell a .75 taller joint now.

I also saw these posted at the Frrax forum:
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-77-1130003 1" taller ball joint from summit for about 40 dollars each. Wish they made these when I got mine.

You don't really need to change anything with the taller joints. You may theoretically cause a problem with bump steer, or not, who knows, you might be helping it.
So far, I have yet to see anyone actually measure bump steer so just throwing parts at a problem that you haven't actually identified does not seem to make sense to me.

FWIW without any bump steer adjustment on my car it still handles unbelievably well, and by unbelievably well I mean that I have run a faster lap (stock 305, in the junky looking car in my sig) at Adams Motorsports park than Mary Pozzi's '73 Camaro did. You will be able to drive her car in the next iteration of Gran Turismo the video game.
This car: http://www.hotchkis.net/press_release.html?ID=65

Just something to consider.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

Was mary's car on slicks? Either way it impressive.

For the OP, you are right in that the spindle stays put, but the control arm moves down, while the steering linkage stays with the spindle, so there is a change in bump. But like pablo said, it may or may not cause an issue. I used 1/2 taler joints and I moved the steering arm down 1/2". I did not measure the bump steer, but it seemed the logical thing to do, and since I needed new outer tie rods anyway, it was a no brainer. You can piece a bump kit together for around 80 bux.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Very cool Pablo.

Do you guys feel the extended ball joints really helped?

Agreed, there may some differences during a bump. Either way, I still think it should be better than what I have now, which is a lowered car with no bump steer considerations.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I believe she was on these: http://www.falkentire.com/Tires/Pass...nis-RT-615K-14
but I can't say for sure since I was not there. I don't know how those stack up against well used hoosier R6s. IIRC I ran around .2 faster (45.38) than her best time. To be fair, I think I had more experience on that track. Still, she ran a very fast time. She has the only other F body (American car even) I have ever seen in the 45s there (I keep tabs of the time sheets posted online every week).

With regard to the bump steer kit, I agree that logically speaking, it seems like a good idea. That is assuming the GM engineers got the angles right to begin with which is a fair assumption. I hope to get around to measuring it. It is a mild concern for me because I cannot run any spacers on my tie rod ends due to the 315s up front.

87350IROC
It's hard to say if the taller ball joints helped in so far as something I could easily observe. A lot of things changed at once, and, they had to because of the taller ball joints.
I don't think you need to do any testing to conclude that they will raise your roll center, that is an observable fact. Because they raise your roll center you now have less weight acting to roll the car, they give a shorter virtual lever from your center of gravity to the roll center. The other thing they do is keep your arms further down which improves your camber curve.
These are both things that can be observed by just plotting out our suspension points.
I would say they are one of the better mods for our cars. I would even consider the 1" taller joints. The one caveat has been raised by 86TA in that it may negatively affect bump steer.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I will have my suspension apart this winter. Maybe I can get around to measuring the bump steer.

No doubt the extended ball joints have great theoretical advantages. And I know what you mean regarding changing to many things at one time. I am very guilty of that.

The only reason I sway towards the 0.75" ball joints over the Summit 1" is because I have greater confidence in the quality of the Howe joints.

John

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

im quite interested in them as well. Once i get my wheels ordered, im going to see if i can use them and still clear the wheel. It will be close. Im a bit concerned however that the added length will possibly weaken the ball stud

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I also have the same concern about the Summit ball joints. Ideally I'd like to find out more about them before I tried them. No doubt the Howe would be the safest bet, mine appear to be very high quality. Though who knows, the summit ball joints might be just fine.

Kevin Vandevenne

iTrader: (3)

Hi all, I hope its ok to post this here, I have some questions about running taller ball joints as well. I've got a set of .5" longer ball joints on order and waiting to be installed in my car. I've got 17x9.5" C5 rims with the standard 2" spacer and 275/40 rubber. I'm planning on putting a bump steer kit in at the same time. I'm also installing a set of Moog 5662 springs. I'm curious to know after some of the posts in this thread if I will run into clearance issues with the rims I have.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Yes I don't think it will work with the bump steer kit. Look at where tie rod sits now in relation to the stock wheel.

Also, IIRC those springs will make the car sit like a 4x4. No need for a bump steer kit in that case.

Kevin Vandevenne

iTrader: (3)

Thanks. I was planning on trimming the springs to get the ride height I want. If I understand correctly, the longer ball joint should also help lower the car a bit as well. Can I run them using a factory tie rod and the 17" rims? I would measure some of this out on my car, but as it sits right now the only part of the suspension/steering left in the car is the idler arm.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Here is a picture of the clearance with a 18x9.5" wheel. The tie rod end is inside the wheel. There is no way a bump steer kit will fit with wide 17's. Honestly its very questionable on 18's as well.

88FormulaKiller

iTrader: (8)

i just wanted to add alittle of my own experience with lowering. I lowered mine using front moogs w/ 1.5 coils cut off, adj. founders plates, bilstein HD's all around, slp, 1.75" drops out back, adj. panhard, poly everything, NO bumpersteer rods. It handles awesome at a really low 3 inch total drop, but i will say, the bump steer is severe. When cruising down a road that has the "ruts" per say, the car tends to hunt for them on its own, wheel will fight with me alittle but on a smooth highway, it rides like glass and can weave through traffic over 95+ like it was nothing. I have a pretty low drop at 3 inches, but id think anything over 2 inch should have the bump steer kit if the roads have the ruts or grooves like some of ours do.

edit, stock balljoints (new) and no spring isolators were used.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Are those the correct pn for our cars? I can't seem to find application info, and the picture clearly shows upper control arm style ball joints. if the pic is correct then they can't be the right joints, if they are correct for our cars they could be an awesome cheap solution for lowering our cars and improving geometry.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

K6145 is the proper number for a correct lower joint for a 2nd or 3rd gen. The pic is not of the correct part, they seem to be legit

DBLTKE

iTrader: (1)

I'll definitely be using extended ball joints when mine need replacing. I have noticed that none seem to have a boot, are they greasable?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

What you are experiencing is not necessarily bump steer. I think sometimes there is a misunderstanding about what bump steer is. Bump steer is a change in toe as the suspension travels. This happens because the arc of the tie rod end does not match the arc of the control arm. If the tie rod end is too high relative to the ball joint the tire will toe in under compression. The goal is to try and make the tie rod end and steering knuckle arcs match and sometimes that means moving the tie rod end up or down (in our case, most likely down)

The truth is that you will never get rid of bump steer because the center link moves the axis of rotation. So even if you set it up to perfectly match with the wheel dead ahead, once you turn it some you've moved that axis of rotation of the tie rod which can effectively lengthen or shorten the control arm arc (as the steering knuckle moves in or out) and now the tie rod carves a different arc than the steering knuckle.
I think the goal should be to see how much it is changing toe and then deciding whether or not it is worth the trouble to reduce it. I have even read of some people actually designing bump steer into their suspension because sometimes they want to change toe depending on what the car is doing.

All of that said, if the car has a bumpsteer issue from the factory, I could see how moving the suspension to a different point in the arc (e.g. lowering the car) could make the effect seem more pronounced. When everything is closest to parallel, the effect is reduced.

When the car feels like it is tracking into ruts I think what you are feeling is the result of thirdgen's substantial scrub radius which gets worse with wider tires and lower profile tires. It can also feel worse if you run less caster.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I believe the 17x9 ss wheels I have with 2" spacers give me about 5.5" of back spacing and the tie rod end is pretty close to the wheel but it works. If your wheels have the same backspacing you should be ok. I don't think a bumpsteer kit will fit though.
I have the .5" taller howe ball joints and a half coil cut from moog 5664 springs and you can see the front ride height in my sig. It seems to work well for handling but I wouldn't mind it being lower. I just mention this to give you an idea on how much you may need to cut.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

The howe balljoints are greasable, adjustable, and they can have boots installed. You have to remember to buy the boots though (unless they now include them). When I bought them I had to piece part them together and neglected to order boots. Ended up forcing some parts store moog boots on there which was a real pita because they barely fit.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Well I pulled the trigger on the Howe ball joints. 0.75" taller than stock. Their "complete" ball joints still don't come with grease boots, so I had to order those as well. No big deal as long as you know.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Ball joints are here and I must say they look pretty slick. Car won't be on the road for a few months though, and I'll be making about 100 other changes at the same time.

twigger

How much did the pair run you? You havnt installed them yet have you?

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Total was $189 shipped. No I haven't installed them yet. Hope to have the car back on the road by Summer.

twigger

I suppose these may help with bump stop clearance on lowered vehicles as well. Any ideas on if these help SAI angles?

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

It would help with bump stop clearance. However I'm not a big fan of that style bump stop anyway. I run strut shaft mounted bump stops. Very nice, progressive rate.

Roostmeyer

iTrader: (3)

Something to keep in mind, the more you lower the balljoint, the more toe-out in bump the car is going to have. This can cause issues with turn in, you steer into the turn, the car rolls, and in doing so causes toe out on the outer wheel and toe in on the inner causing the car to steer out of the turn.

The driver can always add more steering angle until you're out of travel, but its certainly going to cause the car to be more difficult to drive. I'm guessing it would feel like understeer to the driver, which you typically cure by backing off the wheel and not cranking more steering angle in.

Lots of good tech here:
http://woodwardsteering.eu/images/ba...ion%20tech.pdf

If I can afford it this summer/fall I'd like to put in a racing rack. I think it can drop around 30lbs off the nose of the car, increased steering speed, better feel, and you can adjust bumpsteer by raising the inner tie rods rather than the outers.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I hear you. I think I will be ok though. I am installing the extended ball joint to return factory geometry, not to lower the car. Along with my bump steer kit I am also installing, I can't image it will be any worse than what I have now, which drives nice.

I strongly considered attempting a Woodward power rack install this winter but have to many other project going on and I know enough to know I don't know enough. I would need to work with techs at Woodward to get things right. So instead I will give my second Lee rebuild a shot.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. If the control arm is angled further down from stock but the tie rod stays at the same height, you are going to get toe in on bump and toe out in droop. The tie rod end travels further inboard than the ctrl arm for a given degree of rotation because it is higher up on the arc.
The tech pdf you posted has a graph of this and they actually recommend that it's better to have toe out bump steer under vs toe in

Roostmeyer

iTrader: (3)

That's right, toe in with bump. Way too many beers Saturday night...

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Please let me know how this Lee box rebuild goes... Mine isn't centered anymore (as you know) and it's under 1000 miles

The 0.75" drop sounds good for me.. I'm running stock MOOG IROC springs which is stiff enough for me and extended ball joints is a cheaper and much simpler way to lower the car then dropped spindles. I already have a bump steer kit (SPOHN's version) so that should take care of any bump steer.

1" drop is probably better but until I see more opinions on the safety of that, I'll hold back...

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Another thing to consider is suspension travel I think.. a 1" extended ball joint will move the strut up 1" as well which means you would need aftermarket strut mounts like J&M, UMI, SPOHN, etc..

Also, the Spohn bump steer kit is adjustable IIRC so I can lower the tie rod the same amount (1") in order to fix any bump steer issues that the extended ball joint create.

Also, the Summit ones offer a 0.25" more drop, and are about half the price, I've heard from other forums that summit ball joints are good quality as well.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Right, if you are using the extended ball joint to lower the car you will have those issues. Exactly like if you were using springs to lower the car. I am not lowering the car, the spindle is staying exactly where it is now. Therefore the strut and steering arm are staying exactly where they are now.

I have not read anything regarding the Summit ball joints. I personally wouldn't buy them until I knew who makes them for Summit, any ideas?

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Gonna call them today!

EDIT: Called.. so apparently they don't have them and they don't know of their existence?? Strange I gave him the part number and everything.. K6145.. He said they were standard OE replacements. Odd!

I'm curious, how would a 1" extended ball joint on stock IROC springs affect roll center for the front of the car? I'm assuming it lowers it by the same amount, which is 1", correct?

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Since Summit apparently didn't have them in 1" size, I just ordered the Howe ones for a 0.75" drop (with the boots as well.) This cost 167$ plus shipping to Canada (gulp!). I already have J&M strut mounts and a bumpsteer kit installed so it looks like these should be a simple install and then I'm all set (ofcourse now cutting the rear springs to match the near 1" drop).

How does lowering the car by this method affect roll centers? I have unbalanced engineering Panhard bar relocation brackets waiting to be installed in the rear so I'll be able to adjust rear roll center as well, in hopes to match the front after the Howe ball joints go in.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

K6145 is the generic part number for these cars as well as many others.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

That's right. Either way, the guy on the phone at Howe told me that 0.75" is probably the most you could run safely with this size of ball joint, and their stuff is made better than stock, to handle extreme racing conditions. Can't wait to see the results! >

iansane

iTrader: (1)

To add some tech; I recently ordered these ball joints and had a buddy press them into my control arms. They did not come with any dust boots. That in and of itself isn't an issue (Although it would be nice if that was mentioned on summit's website). The diameter of the top of the balljoint where the boot sits is MUCH larger than factory. 2". Summit does not list a dust boot for it and says it's 'not designed for one since it is for circle track'. Odd, but whatever. I went on a hunt to find ANYTHING I could use to cover these up. Nothing from energy suspension gets that large, same with HOWE. Boots for an H1 hummer are close but the opening for the stud is too large. I finally just dug through boxes at work and found a boot for the upper ball joint from a '61ish Chrysler Imperial was very close. I toss my exhaust spreader on it to widen the metal ring and it popped on. I just hope they stay with some daily driving it. I would NOT recommend these, summit's customer service was a joke.

I'm going to go ahead and order the Howe versions so I'll have them next time I take the control arms off. This, however, was a good time to put my weight jacks in...

midnightfirews6

iTrader: (1)

So Pablo, do you actually feel any bump steer when driving it?
I'm so torn on these... I want to help keep my roll center somewhat in check when I drop the car on weight jacks but I don't want to offset all of those benefits with bump steer since the bump steer kit won't fit on my car (17x9 SS wheels and the stock Pontiac 15x7's). The woodward steering article really makes running the extended ball studs without bump steer provisions sound sketchy, possibly even worse than having a screwed up roll axis. Does anyone have a good persuasive argument either way or a solution to fix the bump steer? I plan on doing these this weekend so I need to decide if I'm ordering the Howe's or driving down to O'Reilly's and getting some plain jane Moogs.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

After much research, I've found that the HOWE ones (0.75" taller) are the ones to go with. The summit ones seem not practical for street because of the lack of dust boots. The HOWE ones can be ordered separately, which is what I did. I received them and they look awesome. Can't wait to install them (They're going on this week).

Also, to answer my own question above about roll centers. This will raise the roll center in the front which is a good thing in our cars since it will get the roll center closer to the center of gravity, which is a good thing and will create less roll in the front (I guess this depends on the car whether it's beneficial or not because some may benefit from more front roll rather than less). For me, it's a good idea. (To add, I'm also lowering the rear roll center by installing unbalanced engineering PHB brackets and will drop it about 0.5" to 1" depending on how it feels..)

I already have the SPOHN bumpsteer kit so I cannot tell you how it will feel without it, but I will be able to see the results after it is corrected with the ball joints installed.

twigger

Anybody with the Howe ball joints have any issues with the boots not seating on the base of the joint?

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I'll find that out this week

Kevin Vandevenne

iTrader: (3)

I just wanted to post that I ordered the summit .5" longer ball joints for my car. Mine did not come with covers as well. I went to Howe racing and ordered a universal ball joint cover (pn# 22399) and they fit the summit ball joint. I did not use a snap ring to hold them in place, I used a large worm gear clamp. The 223991 might be a better option if as it has a thicker base to use a zip tie or what not to keep it secure. Cost $6 and it comes with 2.

http://www.howeracing.com/p-7955-ball-joint-boot.aspx

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Bump steer is not really something you can feel, at least I can't. What people generally call bump steer is actually the effects of having a large scrub radius on these cars. You know, where you feel it yank to one side when you hit uneven pavement or bumps. The only way to really know if bumpsteer is a problem is to measure it. Bear in mind, the less suspension travel you have, the less chance bumpsteer has to become significant.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

That makes sense. Kind of like the less suspension travel you have in the rear, the less the PHB will travel and will reduce the likeliness of the jacking effect it has on the rear.

Can an alignment shop measure bump steer?

midnightfirews6

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, most good alignment shops should be able to.

Ended up going with the moogs, will run drop spindles on down the road.