peterc005

Hi,

I recently bought a RHD 1988 Camaro IROC with a 350 and T700. The car has accident damage, which doesn't worry me too much as I was looking for a project car to paint and customise.

Hopefully someone can help with advice on how to check the front suspension and steering for damage.

It looks like the car went around a corner too fast, lost traction, and then went up over a kerb and thru a timber fence. I'm waiting for new front panels to arrive and the rest of the car appears in reasonable condition.

The right front wheels appears to toe out a fair bit. The bottom of the K Member is scratched and dents/cracks to the engine sump appear to have been repaired by welding. I can't see any other visible damage under the car.

A mate who is a panel beater has suggested a replacement K Member and lower A control arms. He is a very experienced smash repairer and knows his stuff well.

Can anyone suggest what/how to check for damage?

What sort of damage/repairs have been necessary after similar accidents?

Are there any standard points under the car that I can use to measure for damage and to make sure the car body/chassis is straight?

Any suggestions appreciated.

Cheers
Peter

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

A factory service manual from Helm Inc. has all the body measurements. Any year 3rd gen one will work, Camaro or Firebird 82 - 92, they're all the same in that department. You can find them on eBay from time to time.

peterc005

Great tip, I'll chase a copy. Thanks.

peterc005

Found copies of the Helms Factory Service Manual of eBay.

Is there a digital copy (PDF?)anywhere for download?

FueledSoul

iTrader: (18)

I have all the specs on the all the body measurements... You should have the car tram gauged out to see if there was any structural floor / sub frame damages

peterc005

Would it be possible to get a copy of the body specifications?

I am hoping I can just use a tape measure to check the body is square, rather than set it up on a jog. This may be optimistic.

I had planned to put the car on a hoist and measure diagonally between front and rear suspension mounting points, but am not sure if this is a valid approach.

FueledSoul

iTrader: (18)

Yes but its late all dig them out later. Even with a tape measure that's in millimeters its not going to be accurate and the factory + and - tolerances are within 3mm. You really want to use a tram gauge to do accurate measurements. The holes on your sub frames and floor pans and any other holes under the car are not drain holes like most people think they used for points of measurements and are designed to be used with a tram gauge.

peterc005

@FueledSoul, that's interesting. I've never had to measure a car up before.

I've seen other cars where bars are bolted to the bumper mounts and stretched into shape, but am in the dark about how it works.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Bolting things to the bumper mounts is the easy part; pulling is a little harder, but not much, you can do that yourself with a big tree and a come-along, even; the hard part, is knowing what direction to pull and when to stop.

Tramming a car consists of mounting it in a known level position, and taking measurements INCLUDING the height of things, in 3 dimensions. There are VERY few straight lines you can measure; most, if you have to measure say a front-to-rear distance, the 2 gauge holes you'd use are a different height, so you end up having to drop a plumb bob from each and measure the distance on the floor.

In the case of the damage you describe, and just looking at that car, it's not only bent in the horizontal direction, but the vertical as well. For that, a frame shop will typically bolt it to a large jig of beams, put spacers under it at different places, and push up or pull down with hydraulic cylinders to make it back level again.

All around, not an easy task for the do-it-yourself-er. Not impossible, just, FAR from trivial.



Much easier if you can get the car into a state like this.

peterc005

I've taken the car apart for paint, with the front fenders, hood and rear window removed. Most of the interior is also out.

I really don't want to strip the rest of the car, especially engine and drive train, because then I'll never get it back together.

The photos can be a bit deceptive because a couple of the tires were under-inflated.

It's been suggested that I get a replacement K Member, and if this doesn't bolt in cleanly to then put the car in a jig for straightening. This seems like a reasonable approach, although I want the car back on the road ASAP and I'd prefer to avoid replacing the K Member.

Ideally I'd like to put the car on a hoist, measure some points, and get a better idea that way. Not sure is that approach is practical or just optimistic?

peterc005

@sofakingdom, thanks for the picture. I can see the holes that I guess are designed for providing measurement reference points.

FueledSoul

iTrader: (18)

I forgot to add there are places to hook and pull from too they are the oval shape holes on the sub frames, but depends on the shop or the amount of damage sometimes you have to pull from different areas that weren't necessary made to be pulled from again depends on the shop and damage.

FueledSoul

iTrader: (18)

This will probably make more sense to you now...

peterc005

@FueledSoul, thanks for the diagram. It answers a lot of questions for me.

I think if I put the car on a hoist and get a tape measure I can quickly get an idea how square the body is.

peterc005

The interesting thing here is that I can look at a detailed picture of the stripped underside of a Camaro against a detailed diagram with measuring points and measurements from the factory manual.

@sofakingdom, I have flipped your picture 180 degrees and am mapping out the measuring points. Would you be able to take another picture of the underside of your car that includes the whole body square on for better comparison with the diagram?

I think this thread my be a useful reference for other people too.

FueledSoul

iTrader: (18)

I don't think thats his car, that pics been floating around for awhile here on TGO. there are some( i think better )ones of cars on rotisseries which you could work from. anyway on a side note i agree with everything sofakingdom said and you can use a plumb bob and a tape but you have to remember the tolerances are +/- 3mm the plumb and tape will only work so well a tram gauge will be the most accurate way to measure.

peterc005

Here I've tried to map the body measurement reference points from the diagram to the actual body. Do these make sense?

peterc005

@FueledSoul, thanks for the post, I've been reading up on "tram gauges".

My understanding is that I could achieve reasonable result using a good tape measure, string + plumb bobs and a spirit level.

I'd raise the car, hang plumb bobs on string from the measuring points and then measure between the strings on a level plane.

Have I got this right?

FueledSoul

iTrader: (18)

Your welcome.
Your marks aren't all right but your close all add another underside shot to the mix that you can use if you want... As iv said before tolerances are +/- 3mm if your not to familiar with millimeters closest your going to that in inches is 0.118110 inches which is only 2.999994 millimeters. You need to put the plumb line as dead center on the holes as possible you might need to make a pointed end that will center the plumb line on the hole even so your going to be off on both holes there just no way around it. Like i said before no reason you cant plumb and tape but understand this is a very rough estament at best, So yes you'll achieve some reasonable results. A trim gauge is worth it if you plan to do your own pulling and you can use it for many other things too its a very very accurate tool.

screeminchicken

iTrader: (2)

Is there a link or a picture of a trim gauge ?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

It's a "tram" gauge.

Here's a link to a few. http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=tram+gauge

FueledSoul

iTrader: (18)

There are different types of trams too. they come in digital and per printed/ engraved rulers, and stationary sliding tapes etc. For a thirdgen you want one that can reach at least or over 914mm = 36"

peterc005

That's interesting.

I guess the one held by the woman in orange overalls is the best for the task. Want something to measure distances between points in the subframes while the car it up on a hoist.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

You have to be REAL CAREFUL doing that on a hoist, as the car can easily be bent ALOT more than 3mm by its own weight, depending on how it's supported. Particularly, the weight of the engine makes it almost impossible to get that part of the car right.

You'll see once you get started. Personally, I think it's a REAL BAD idea to try to straighten a car with the motor still in it, for this reason, as well as, it's SEVERELY in the way of everything. I suspect you'll find that it will actually be quicker, easier, and produce a better product, to go ahead and pull it. It's actually quite simple to remove and re-install if you pay attention to what you're doing along the way; take notes, pictures, put groups of small parts and bolts and such in plastic bags or whatever with labels, etc.

Then of course there tends to be the problem of the hoist itself... it's RIGHT EXACTLY in the way of where you need to measure things.

peterc005

I thought to measure my Camaro on the ground I'd have to lift it onto jack stands under the sub frames.

If the hoist lifting points are under the same lifting points the flexing would be the same?

I've ordered a CD copy of the Helm's manual and will pay a lot of attention to the relevant section

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Problem with a hoist is, it tends to be RIGHT DIRECTLY IN THE WAY of where you need to get to, to measure it. Worse about that than stands because of its beams, arms, etc.

The factory measurements are intended to be used on a completely bare body. The engine weight will probably bend it by a full inch in places, or about 25mm; 10 times the tolerance you're looking for. And in fact the places it will bend the most, are RIGHT EXACTLY WHERE you'll be trying to straighten it back out from the specific damage you've got, namely, the very front.