joshh44

ok i found some rear frame rail kits on afew different websites.
im trying to make a street legal drag car.
so im not to sure if any of these ones are what i want.
here is the kits that i like.

http://www.edquay.com/camaro/index.html

its a catalog and is in PDF form.
im not to sure about the frame rail kits tho. i would need something that would be great for the drag strip but also be able to handle corners fairly decent.
or is all frame rail kits made jsut for the strip??
and also which is better? 4 link supension or the ladder bars? or can both be put togeather as one?

if any of thos dont work. what would i need?? i would like to have the rear frame rails. would i have to customize some myself?

91drag

Unless you are changing the rearend to something like a 9 inch i would keep it stock and just upgrade the lca's and ta. i dont know where you race but here to run in street class you must keep the stock style suspension but can upgrade the lca's and stuff. i would check first. to install either you will need to cut the back floor out for clearance, and build new floor pans.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Well that pretty much TOTALLY rules out ladder bars.

A 4-link requires some HEAVY alteration of the car. Pretty much requires cutting the whole rear out and back-halfing the car. I'm not even sure if it's realistically practical to do it, without also caging the car; since there'd be nothing at all to attach the front of the links to. They'll be basically in the middle of the back seat somewhere, with nothing but the floor pan to weld to.

No you can't use both.

If you're at the stage of reading Internet sites to figure out what to do and you don't understand how those work or what they're for, then for right now, either of those options is in the "if you have to ask..." class, for you. I'd suggest you stick with the stock design, and upgrade it as required. You've got A LONG WAY to go, before you need anything better. It's perfectly fine for the street, or even for alot of forms of non-drag competition; and it's good to deep in the 10s for drag racing. Put SFCs in your car, better LCAs, a better torque arm that takes the front mount point off the transmission, maybe LCARBs; see where that takes you, first.

joshh44

thanks guys for the info.
yeah i was thinking about the stock suspension and just keeping that for now. just do some quick upgrades. i was thinking stiffer shocks and stiffer spings would be a good start. and do you know how much power a 4th gen rearend can handle? i was thinking of swapping in that rearend. i would like to stick a 9inch in there tho insted. are both swaps fairly easy to do? iv never done a rearend swap.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Same as a thirdgen; it's the same basic thing (7½" 10-bolt), just has about 1¾" more length on each side.

LS1 cars run well down into the 11s with the stock rear that's all but identical to yours. How much power are you talking about here? You do of course realize that your T-5 will protect your rear from ever tearing up? Since you've never swapped a rear before, do you know how a 9" is different from the stock rear, in terms of geometry (pinion centerline location wrt axle centerline), and the problems it causes? Do you know how much it weighs, and how much one that's actually stronger than your 10-bolt would be (which a stock one out of a junkyard ISN'T)?

You can change out the springs and shocks in your driveway in about 15 minutes, if you're as lazy as me, and you stop a couple of times in the middle for cold ones and savor them lovingly. Takes longer to jack the car up and let it back down than it does to actually change out the parts; with air tools, it's like a 3:1 ratio. If you've never done that, that'd be a GREAT place to start improving your car's rear suspension.

rx7speed

I love the way you work. makes life so much easier doesn't it.



what isteh difference though between a 4 link and ladder bars?

AlkyIROC

http://www.hardtail.com/techtips/4link.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...f-project.html

joshh44

changing out shocks and springs wouldnt take long to change out. and shouldnt be to expensive.
ill probably do that for now until i save up some more money.
i just bought a little car to get me around to work on this car.
200 dollar 1983 civic hehe.
anyways. thanks for the website explaning about the 4 link suspenion and what not.
ill probably do the 4 link down the road when i have the money and time to do it. its gunna be my drag car. well while we are taking about the rear suspenion. would i have to change anything upfront? suspenion wise? i been hearing people i would have to put in some good springs and what not. i dont think it really matters to much if your going in a stright line.

AlkyIROC

I ran a stock front end for many years. I upgraded to SPA1 struts then to a tubular k-member and a-arms. Last spring I finally put in some trick springs.

joshh44

how much weight did you save with the tubular k-members and a-arms?
i found some on the internet but there soo expensive. maybe in the future or soemthing.

AlkyIROC

Never weighed both. The factory k-member doesn't weigh very much. I'd guess and say 20 pound saving. Maybe 30 at the very most with a A-arms.

My biggest reason for installing the k-member was clearance. With the big tube headers, I didn't have a lot of room with the factory k-member. I purchased one without motor mounts because I use a front motor mount mounted to the frame rails.

I can now pull my oil pan off without lifting the engine. I have to drop the steering center link though because I have the engine dropped down as low as it can go.

Shagwell

yes, your 4-link and ladder bar kits are drag race only items. Ladder bars don't do corners at all, and the 4-link has drawbacks. A drag race lay-out 4-link has the upper bars at a downward angle to help traction off the line. BUT, to go around corners you need the bars parrallel to avoid roll steer during body roll.

As stated, upgrade the factory stuff. Shocks, springs, control arms, tq arm and panhard rod.

FYI - I don't know how you boys do it up north, but down here it takes a low 8 to high 7 in the 1/4 to run in the factory suspension classes. Spires just ran 5.00 @ 152 in the 1/8 in a true factory suspension/factory wheel tub 4th gen camaro.

For the front, the tube k-member and components really doesn't due much for weight, mostly it's for access room. There's a lot more room around the tube stuff for header clearance, working on the engine, etc.
- If anyone is interested, I have a set of equal length ceramic coated 2-1/4 primary(either 4 or 4.5 collector, I'll have to check) BBC headers for a 3rd gen that clear the factory k-member. They are designed for a back-halfed car though, so they probably won't clear the front "sub-frame" rails w/o cutting out the under-floor section. They're either lemons or cooks(in the car when we got it) FS!

joshh44

aww man. i clicked the back button and lost all what i had to say

anyways
i decided to stick with the stock setup for now until i have the car ready for all that other stuff. are ladder bars workable with the stock suspension setup? or would i need traction bars? i havnt been able to find any for these cars. ones i been finding are all for leaf springs. would thos be better upgrade?

started thinking alittle to far for right now.

i would like to upgrade the stock rearend tho.
i been looking for a 9" but i cant seem to find what im looking for. i would like something that is allready to be bolted up.
but ones i been finding are extreamly pricey.
i was thinking of going to the auto wreckers and seeing if i can snach one up from a car. but i would have to install the mounts and some modifications.
are there any info on that? or like blueprints?

joshh44

anything stronger then the stock rearend thats forsure. i have an open rearend with 3.08 gears right now. im looking into something thats 3.72. i think thats what it is or 4.11 gears.

or is there a way to strengthen the stock rearend.

urmomshot77

A two part answer here. The 10 bolts are garbage. You CAN dump some cash into them as a "cruch", but they're gunna break as soon as you start making some decent horses. However, just eyeballing your setup, Your 305 and T-5 setup arent going to mess up your 10 bolt unless your dumping that clutch at ungodly rpms. Even if you decide to upgrade to 3:73 gears, your new found traction problems caused by your extremely low first gear will save your 10 bolt. When you switch to sticky tires, then the 10 bolt will need to go. Id suggest a good 12 bolt if you dont want to pay the price for a direct fit 9 inch. Your gunna pay alot regardless to modify a "junkyard 9 inch" to fit properly and rebuild.

joshh44

oh ok.
i havnt checked into the 12 bolts yet. but im surly will.

insted of ladder bars and all tha tother stuff.
is it possible to add traction bars on rear coil spring setup? i havnt been able to find any.
or can ladderbars be setup with the stock rearend suspension?

(trying to get back on topic.)

urmomshot77

hmmm im still learning much about the suspension myself. I don't think you can really use traction bars on a rear coil setup, but i think thats where better Panhard bars/lift bars come into play (someone correct me if thats wrong). But i know that you can use a Ladder bar just fine on a stock setup. Also maybe look into a Rear sway bar as well.

joshh44

i have a rear swaybar.
i dont think i need to get a thinker swaybar. thats for more hardcore cornering. thats what i think anyways.
the stock one works just fine on how i drive.

what are some good stiff springs and shocks that would be great for drag racing?
and what are lifter bars?

urmomshot77

I call them that. Theyre name is Lower Control Arms. They minimize wheel hop, improve traction, and better cornering. Heres a quick link to one with the description... http://www.umiperformance.com/2015?category_id=106

joshh44

the page doesnt seem to work.

urmomshot77

I think it works, try it again. I hope so cause i used that link to get to their page, and I just dropped $1k on their sale. $915 dollars worth of suspension **** for 778 bux! woot woot.

Apeiron

No and no.

joshh44

well that sucks.
and ill take alook around on the website.

Shagwell

several things wrong with your response.
First off, there are several guys running our stock 7.5" 10-bolt into the 10 sec range. No, it's not a very tough rear, but IF you go no lower(numerically higher) than a 3.73 it will live pretty decently behind a true 550 hp motor. I, for one, launched at 5500ish clutch dumps and ran in the 11's in a 4001# tank on a decently built 7.5"er. 1.66-1.69 60fts on drag radials.
As for the gear and traction problems - most cars become easier to hook with lower rear gears because your wheel speed will not come up as fast due to the lower ratio. This counts for most all cars with factory or mini tubs, no matter the tire.
I too would reccomend a 12 bolt over a 9", unless you're planning a serious tire size(as in tubbed, back-halfed) and a lot of hp(750+). A 9" requires more hp to pull, thus you get less to the tires from the same engine/trans package. It also doesn't fit under our cars as well as a 12 bolt or a dana, which personally I would run the S60 in place of a 9" except in classes where you need to be able to quickly change rear gears. A dana is stronger than a 9" and takes less hp to pull, but is a bit heavier(15#'s for the S60, stockers are worse). The S60 is available to bolt in to our cars and it's overall fitment is much better than a 9".

as for the suspension - no, you will not need "traction bars" or "ladder bars" or anything of the kind. You already have a link suspension, therefore you do not have leaf spring axle wrap issues. - look into aftermarket control arms, reloaction brackets and a divorce mounted(not attached to the trans) torque arm. - do a search on this forum, they've been covered many times.

joshh44

thanks for the info.
ill go check out the fourms about them.
i didnt know dana was stronger then a 9" rear end.
i been seeing alot of dana rear ends on the internet for sale.
i may see aobut getting one of them or a 12 bolt.
i would like to stick some 12 inch wide tires in the back. but have them tucked under the fenders. i hate how people have them over the fenders. looks soo retarded.
but yeah.
ill stick with what i have now until its time to upgrade.

for the rear suspenion. where could i find some good stiff rear coil springs?
i would like to upgrade the springs 1st. since there 18 or so years old.
been looking for ever for a set but i have no idea where to get em.
i got a 1990 RS. i hear the Iroc Springs are stiffer then the RS ones.
i wouldnt mind if they are lowered springs eather. the rear end is stock ride hight as it sits right now. alittle lower would be a nice change.

Shagwell

you can't just use any old 12-bolt or dana, or anything else for that matter. Your only options(w/o MAJOR custom fabrication) are the 3rd/4th gen factory 7.5/7.625" 10-bolts, the austalian built borg warner 9-bolt that came in many GTA's(very hard to get parts for), OR an aftermarket f-body specific 9"/12-bolt/dana housing. No other housings have the provision for our torque arm mount and unless you have very good fabriaction skills of your own, the cost of having it installed would far outweigh the cost of an aftermarket bolt-in unit, plus the aftermarket stuff is stronger than it's OE counter-part.

I run 17x11 wheels with a 315/35/17 drag radial. They're every bit of 12" wide, and can be tucked in our factory wheel well w/ some minimal "massaging". Smaller wheel sizes usually won't allow as wide of a tire, due to the bow-out of the taller sidewalls(wider section width).

As for springs, you can buy new factory replacement IROC/etc from any decent parts store that offers MOOG chassis parts. - Your current ride height is lower than stock, as you've said yourself, the car has been sitting on those springs for 18 years. I would do a little searching on here and make sure that's what you want. The proper part number has also been posted many times.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Before diving off into "you should research $2500 rear ends", explain to us why a 305 TBI car needs anything more than what's already there.

In other words, talk about what you're trying to accomplish, not just start right into the middle somewhere. Kind of like, you don't just dive right into asking about what's the best caliber weapon to kill alligators with, if the reason you're killing them is so you can drain the swamp, so you can build a subdivision. It's better to start out talking about the end goal first, then work you way down into the details; and not let some one of the millions of little trees block your view of the forest, like what talking about which $2500 rear end should go into a 170 HP car is.

Fact of the matter is, you don't need ANY other rear besides what's there, without AHELLUVALOT more work being done to that car FIRST. Which, by the types of questions you're asking, you're NOWHERE NEAR that level at this point. It's just not the right place to be putting your mental and finacial effort at all.

joshh44

i should have said what my goals are for before i started out. sorry guys.
well my goals for the car is making a street legal drag car. it would mostly be used at the drag strip and just to drive around town to car shows and what not.
but thats over years and of working on the car.
im just trying to figure out all the parts i need for the car so i can price everything out so i know what the overall cost will be.

i already worked out the body/chassis of the car for what i need for that.
i got the engine, tranny, tires all worked out and what i want.
only thing im having trouble is the suspension side.
i dont want to throw alot of money into the rear suspension that i dont need.
thats why i asked about the ladder bars or the 4 link suspenion if they are what i need for a what im planning to do to the car.
so far from what i been reading that the stock suspesion would do just fine,
just afew mods here and there. better parts. and should be pretty good.
the rearend of the car is going to be the last part of the project.

does that help at all???

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yup, that helps...

Get new springs, shocks, sway bar bushings, LCAs, and (maybe) LCARBs. Trans mount and torque arm bushing would be helpful too.

You don't need a high-$$$ rear end at this time.

Spend your money on something else.

joshh44

yeah i didnt really need anything fancy for right now.
what would be the best choice on which part i should get for the rear end 1st?
something fairly cheap.
i need to replace the shocks on my car so ill be getting good new set of thos.
besides the shocks what should be good?
im going down to the drags in augest once i get my engine in the car. i was thinking of upgrading a part in the suspenion just for the drag races.
its a drag tournment so ill be in that in summer 08.
or should i spend the money on something else?
kind of in debate on that......

thecamarokidd

can you show me pics of this?

AlkyIROC

Picture of what? There's lots of pictures of stuff on my web site.

thecamarokidd

of your k member and how your engine sits in in,i was thinking about doing the tub k member but i would like to see some finished pics of it

AlkyIROC

I don't think I have any pictures of the K-member. It's just a standard tubular K-member similar to many other TGO members have. Mine just doesn't have any engine mounts attached to it and the 2-1/4" primary tube BBC headers are still a tight fit.

As for how the engine sits in the car, these are probably the best pictures. You can see the aluminum front motor plate bolted to the top of the frame rails.

thecamarokidd

wow that look really good. also i never got a straight answer on whats the difference in motor plates and mounts. how hard is switching from mounts to plates?

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

I use South Side Mech Lift bars/sub frame contrs.
with a carrie entrprise 9" car is rock solid (will sit on 3 jack stands.door will close with finger tip.. solid!

this set up in under $400 but will cost $$ to install
i paid $700 in just welding and set up...
this street car 60' times are 1.54 (ET Streets)

Shagwell

Wow, older thread, glad to see some people do indeed use the search feature. I also fixed an idiotic spelling/grammar issue in one of my previous posts. LOL


Plates are more rigid than solid mounts, due to tieing wider and to more frame rail. Plates also require some form of lateral restraint, so that the engine/trans don't flex forward/backward under heavy acceleration or deceleration.

Plenty of guys going 1.2x or even lower 60fts on the stock suspension system, and it's not rigid like a south-side non-adjustable ladder bar system.

1BADRZ28

iTrader: (2)

Not to be a ****, but I think most are wasting their time commenting. I think the search function could have helped this young lad answer most if his questions and I can tell by his questions that he is about 2-5 years out on this project. It's great to research and ask questions but hardly a cause for arguments in this posting.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

dont look at the 7 years of dust from sitting..lol this set up works Fantastic slick are low low on air.. ill air them up..