SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Ok, here's the deal...I went to the shop b/c my alignement was all outta wack, and they told me they can only align to factory stock specs b/c their machines can't calibrate aftermarket stuff. So, they suggested getting my own alignement specs and have it redone.

The problem is, the outter edge of my fronts got eaten to $hit, so I had to get new tires. Drivers side was about 1/4 of the tire from the outside edge gone, and the Passenger was almost 1/2 from the outside edge gone.

I need to know what kinda specs to use for my setup. I'd say it's a road racing setup, although, I'd like them to last too. Not too crazy on high speed turns. It's mainly a cruiser that see's some abuse from time to time.

I originally had 245/45/zr17's on the front. They switched me to 235/45/zr17's b/c they said it should lessen the wear, w/o really any performance loss. No big deal to me.

So, I have all aftermarket suspension. To make it easier, instead of writing everything, here's my mod post from awhile back. Also, after that post, I have Spohn Heavy Duty Tire Rod adjusters, and Moog tie rods, etc. etc...Also doing a STB after my engine swap, if that matters at all. Also, a new quick ratio steering box is goin' in.

Mods

So, can anyone recommend a full alignment spec sheet for me to give 'em? All they have me at now is for "stock" 1990 Firebird 15" alignement.

I need some custom specs! Thanks a lot guys!

blyth18md

caster
L= +5
R= +5.5

Camber
L= -0.75
R= -0.75

Toe

Total = 3/32


PS: the early cars only have enough provison for 3-3.5* caster

86LG4T56

How bout this?

Caster

R = MAX+
L = Right side minus .5

Camber

R = -1.5
L = -1.5

Toe

1/16th inward

irocdan

im pretty low,so i took my car to a place here in so cal that deals with lowered n lifted cars n trucks

Lo-tec

From the FAQ section:


Q: What are some suggested front end alignment specs?

A: A table in the Camaro & Firebird Perforamnce Handbook for 3rd Generation cars lists the following recommendations:


Caster Camber Toe Total
(deg) (deg) (in)
L R L R
Street +4 +4.5 -.5 -.5 3/32
Hard Street Use +5 +5.5 -1 -1 3/32
Drag Racing +4 +4 0 0 1/32
Road racing +6 +6 -1.75 -1.75 Short Course
1/8 out
Long Course
1/16 in

The figures are credited to Global West Suspension Components and are taken with driver weight included.

FWIW I've run the hard street setting (less caster but the max I can get out of my car) for over 10 years with no adverse tire wear.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Thanks a lot guys! Is there any sure way to know if the changes you do "work", or just take it in time and see how the tires wear?

"PS: the early cars only have enough provison for 3-3.5* caster"

W/ those Spohn shock towers, on the drivers side, I basically have it as far as I can go "inward", and it's hitting the master cylinder. If it turns out I need to go in more, I can't.

"The figures are credited to Global West Suspension Components and are taken with driver weight included."

Would Spohn and Eibach be comparable to Global West, in terms of those adjustments?

You guys seem to be around the same specs, but each suggestion varies by a little.

blyth18md and 86LG4T56, is that what you run? What kinda rims, etc. do you have? How do your tires hold up?

Lo-tec, what are the specs on your tire/rim size and suspension mods? Anything similar to mine? What you list from the Handbook, is that taken into account bigger rims, or using stock 15 and/or 16" rims w/ just Global West suspension parts?

irocdan, what mods do you have? Do you know what the specs are on how they adjusted it?

Lo-tec

I ran this alignment with 235/60/15's, and now 255/50/16's. Suspension mods have increased over the years, but I ran this when the car was more or less stock with just a new set of springs and shocks/struts. It really doesn't matter who makes the part you upgraded to as far as alignment is concerned.

You'll know if it works the first time you throw it in a corner.

blyth18md

I have the sphon strut mounts too. and i and only get 3.5.

-1.5 camber might be a bit too much camber for someone concerned about tire wear. id stay -.5 to -.75..maybe up to -1 but tire wear starts to be a concern.

Mods are in my sig

DeanE

With your tire widths and modifications, I would shoot for these specs. You really don't want more than about -.85 on the camber for street use. I set at about -.80 on both sides. Caster youcan pull the strut mounts off and mill the chassis slots slightly longer if you can't get +5.5 on the passenger side.

Caster gives you more neg camber when you turn the wheel- but it will also give you bumpsteer so set the front rebound stiff enough to help prevent this without loosing too much comfort.
(edit:Forget this part- I see you have Bilsteins)

3/32 toe is perfectly fine for street with you extensive mods and Delrin type bushings. If you decide to autox it, simply undo the lock nuts on one side and give it a half rotation toe out, then reset it for the drive home (I don't even bother with altering mine at the track, I just run this car how its driven daily.)

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

blyth18md, how are your issues w/ tire wear w/ those specs you've given me? I'm thinking your closer to what "I" have since you have 17x8's up front.

Lo-tec, I'm not sure if the specs you've given me would be sufficient w/ my given mods. Since your saying you ran those w/ 15's and 16's, would it be much off w/ my 17's? You're saying you havn't had issues w/ uneven wear w/ your 16's, but I'm trying to see how that would compare w/ my stuff.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

"Caster youcan pull the strut mounts off and mill the chassis slots slightly longer if you can't get +5.5 on the passenger side."

DeanE, my problem is not w/ there not being enough "slot" on the chassis, it's the mount itself hitting the master cylinder. The Spohn mounts are "taller" than stock, so, it hits. I'm not sure where it's at "now", but if I need more, that's the problem.

Lo-tec

In a nutshell, your tire wear was probably from incorrect toe (way off, like 1/2" wag). Too much camber will eat up the inside edge of the tire. I agree with the specs that blyth18md posted and dean concurred on. They would be more than safe as far as tire wear is concerned, yet handle very well at the same time. Just remember to throw some weights in the front seat when you get it aligned.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Lo-tec, so, it was the toe that was incorrect then? hmm, I see. Idiots there told me it's more than likely the camber. Well, as long as we have common ground that the specs blyth18md posted are good to go w/, I'll take it in and tell 'em to change it to these.

Good tip on the weight idea too...That was probably throwing them off too, as it was just free standing on the lift.

Lo-tec

The camber would have to way off and extremely visible if it was the problem (top of the tire leaned waaay out for your tire wear).

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, "visually" the tires look correct. I'll use the specs mentioned above and see what they can do. Hell, I'll sit in the car on the lift when they do it, lol

86LG4T56

No the figures I posted are not what I run. My car can't get that aggressive. My caster is maxed out at 3.4. And when they gave me my camber, I asked for -1, but they gave me -.1

I didn't bother taking it back.

DeanE

I have some of the original HMS mounts and after I added my custom hub & brake setup (I changed the a-arm bushings and welded the arms also at that time) the different spindles torqued to the struts and the bushings set me at -2.8 camber on one side and -2.6 on the other with room to go more. I had Jon at Accurate Alignment run them over for me and I can get a total of +7* Caster and -3.2* camber on my HMS mounts before I hit the master cylinder.

Its the lowered height of the car that gives me the better angle capabilities

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

"I had Jon at Accurate Alignment run them over for me and I can get a total of +7* Caster and -3.2* camber on my HMS mounts before I hit the master cylinder."

So, seeing as how it only calls for -0.80 camber and +5.5 caster MAX, there shouldn't be any problems w/ achieving it w/ those mounts, correct? I don't think the HMS mounts are much diff. than the polished mounts from Spohn, so, we should be in the same boat, in that respect.

DeanE

They are basically the same thing between Spohn design and the HMS ones.
You can see in the picture I've attached that I still have plenty of room to push the adjustment towards the motor to get more negitive camber. It is right now sitting at -.80 and will push over to a max of -3.2 on my car.

But you need to understand that the lower the car sits, the greater the angle range of adjustment like I showed in the first picture. My car sits lower than most.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

I see. Well, w/ my mods, I've been lowered as well. Are you lower than me? Looks like either way though, I just have to get it to those numbers, and looks like it should be pretty easy, since there is plenty of range for adjustment.

DeanE

I sit at 24 3/4" from the ground to the fenderlip. Those are factory size 245-50-16" rims and tires You should easily be able to get that camber even sitting one inch higher, the caster you may have to elongate your chassis slots though.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Damn, yeah, yours is lower, lol. I just dropped it w/ the Pro-Kit. It's also sitting higher b/c of the 3.1. Once I get my LT1 in there, should drop a bit. I'll go by those specs and see what happens. Sounds like those are the winning numbers to be at

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

I'm hearing -.80 is too much camber? Is that what I need for my mods though? This one guy is running -.25 and he said his tires wear perfectly...

It all has to do w/ the mods and tire size, correct? I'm taking it in today for the adjustments, and just want to make sure I have the correct info...

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

I got til Sunday for alignement. Went there today, dudes like, "The guy that knows how to do it won't be in til Sunday. All the guys in the shop now don't know anything" lol...So, we'll see once again...

DeanE

Trust me, Shoot for -.75 on each side and it may be withing + or - .05. It is never a perfect reading on each side.

I also ran Goodyear F1 GS-D3's with a normal pressure of 49 psi hot on the fronts and 46.5 psi hot on the rears for almost 3 years and got over 25,000 miles onthem and even turned probably 20 laps on California Speedway and about 6 autox runs.

Perfectly even wear all the way across the tires. I have even posted a picture of them when I took them off. Someone else had asked to see the wear. I'll hunt for that picture.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Sounds good. Did you sit in the car while they were aligning it? I think I should, to get the correct weight. I think I'll need another alignment once I get the new engine in and $hit, from the added weight...

DeanE

I always sit in my car when I have them aligned, But I know my alignment guy very well so its not a problem. I weight 240 lbs so it is crucial that I do. Most shops will not want you in the garage area. The car is noticibly different when someone else my size is in the passenger seat.

Here's that post woith my tire wear of the Goodyears. I really hate these KDW's I put onto this car. Wish I had gone to the Goodyears again. I am going to pull these crappy BFG's off by next summer.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...light=goodyear

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, these guys don't care, they'd even let me drive the car up and off the lift if I wanted to. I was in there when they were doin' everything. I'll sit in there when I bring it. That other post, man, they don't even look wore out to me! lol...

DeanE

I had miles to go on them still, Its just I cut a tire and it was unrepairable, So I just quickly replaced oll of them at the same time with KDW's since they were readily availiable.

Last time I ever make spur of the moment purchase on tires. I asked Jon waht he had readily availiable and the KDW's sounded best off of what I had vaguely remembered other members here speaking highly of them.

I have learned a few times now not to trust info I hear on these boards about reviews on parts people have on their cars. Hence why I post real world advice and pictures so people have a factual reference from my opinions,

You can 99% trust what I post is acurate advice- And I do correct and admit any past info where I was wrong. That means I weed out the people giving misinfo and get into alot of disagreements- Makes me look like a jerk sometimes, but its in the good interest of others. The mods let me back after banning me for the verbage attacks because they do know I am helpful in my intentions.

Wondere if they will ever make me a Moderator

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I would love to see a picture of your front LCA's at ride height...

V6#20

I have [posted pictures of them at ride height on here plenty of times- do a search, its no secret.

Next you're going to tell me since they are just a hare inverted that my car is going to blow up? In your quest to try and outdo me, you fail to remember I have the best handling third gen around and have proven that a few different tmes to the locals around me. They aren't even close in their stock AND modified 3rd gens- not even the same league.

My car also has very little travel so the "slightly" inverted A-arms do not move more than a normal 1" wheel travel and a worst case 1 1/2" wheel travel- this car does not touch the bumpstops unless I hammer it onto a very, very big pothole or such. So even though I start out low, it hardly moves unlike everyone elses heavier V8 cars. Abosolutely no bumpsteer either even with +5.5 caster.

Anything else you want to know?

V6#20

Here, I save you the trouble- I look forward to hearing your remarks.

86LG4T56

What's that orange thingie? A tie rod end?

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Well, I took it in yesterday, and turns out the alignement they had did was in fact WITH the specs you guys gave me. So, we'll see how it turns out. I've put some miles on 'em, and not even a SLIGHT sign of uneven wear. I know I need about 1-2k or so, but as of right now, nothing wrong....

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

That's an adjusting sleeve and he's using a spherical end in the place of the outer tie rod end.

The solid sleeve gives you some extra rigidity to supposedly maintain alignment (not sure I believe it… I’ve seen more of the opposite problem, like right now the sleeves on my formula are rusted on and I haven’t been able to loosen them to save my life, my toe isn’t going anywhere without replacing the inners, outer’s and sleeves). I’m not sure what the rod end gives you besides a more expensive assembly that will wear out faster then the proper tie rod end. Well, I guess it might be marginally lighter (that sleeve sure as hell isn’t, I’d bet the whole assembly weights the same).

*****

Dean, is that you? Did you get banned again?

Not sure that pic shows what I was looking for. Looks like that bump stop might be close to the stock height (definitely taller then the blue poly ones that I used on my ’83) and judging from the picture it looks like you probably have about ½”-3/4” clearance before it contacts the K-member (what, maybe 1-1.5” wheel travel?).

Huh, I wish I still had my ’83 to measure, I’m pretty sure that I didn’t have that much clearance at the same or maybe slightly taller ride height on a ½” taller tire. You can’t really go any shorter with the bump stop because the rear of the control arm will start contacting the K-member.

Something is different and I wish I knew what, it almost looks like you also have more ground clearance with a lower fender lip height. I wonder if original camaro fenders have lower fender openings (there are other sheet metal differences people don’t seem to notice, they do have more pronounce fender lips the sail panels are rounded on the camaros and square on the ‘birds, there are some sheet metal differences around the core support…)

V6#20

Those "red" things are aluminum tie rod adjuster sleeves. They are extremely lightweight and strong. They are much longer than the stock sleeves or the steel solid ones so the threads of the inner and outer tierodsa insert onto much more threads inside them.

Those brake hubs are also custom made from GW and are also very light weight aluminum assemblies. Also the rotor hats are aluminum and the rotors are 13x1.25" 2 pc units and I opted for drilled and slotted for the reduced weight there too. Calipers are 6 piston and are also very light weight aluminum. Caliper brackets are custom machined aluminum brackets and are heat coated. Spindles are stock ones modified into 1LE style and shved down & rounded edges for lightness.

I have a very low unsprung weight on this car especially for those size of front brakes.

Crossfire, there is an inch gap in between the aftermarket bumpstop on that radius geometry of the A-arm which means the outer wheel geometry can travel about almost 2" before the bumpstop will contact the frame. I has already stated above that the maximum travel I get on this car with the very stiff springs on a lightweight V6 nose is 1 1/2" max and a 1" normal suspension travel- this car does not move, it is very stiff. It has virtually no brake dive at all.

Ewhat makes this car still ride very well yet being so stiff springed is the lightweight unsprung weight of the suspension and drivetrain- this car also has a 4lb carbon fiber driveshaft and Moser 26spline drilled flange alloy axles.