Duck

Sometimes these things just happen out of nowhere. Yesterday a big Toyota truck roared through two lanes of traffic on my left in a big rush to enter a driveway and hit my ragtop on the driver side. At a minimum my car will need another fender and door. The 1/4 panel "pillar" area looks OK, as does the structural and mechanical integrity (I drove it home but it sure looks ugly).

I think Allstate will total it, but I'd like to keep the car. I figure some wrecking yard parts and amateur straightening in the door hinge area will fix it fine. As I go through the process of estimating, etc, I need to consider other possibilities:

1. Anyone out there interested in making some extra cash replacing the panels? The work can be done in my garage or I can drive it somewhere.

2. If the car goes to the wreckers, I'll need another Camaro. I'd prefer another convertible, but will consider hard tops (no T-tops please), up to about $6K.

z28 TPI

Wow Duck that sucks. I hope you are okay. I hope it wasn't your ragtop, but I read that its was man that sucks. She was in a really good shape. Wow I'm really sorry to hear that.

injdinjn

Bummer, and they will most likely total it. Which means salvage title and having to have receipts for all parts and dealing with a CA govt employee that doesnt want work, good luck
Glad you are not hurt.

godreject

iTrader: (1)

what a shame that was such a nice car Ed. I really do hope you can fix it and keep it salvage title or not. You sure did like that car, post a pic so we may see the damage. What about your other car from AZ why not use that for the mean while.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Sorry to hear that. Did the accelerator stick open on the Toyota?

Russ-So Cal

Duck, the verts are kind of rare. I would check to see what the collector value is on one. If the insurance company wants to "total" it, I would really think long and hard about reporting it to insurance, unless they give you a decent price for it. I think that at the least I would consult a lawyer to make sure the insurance company doesn't get the chance to rip you off without a fight. You could also talk with Hagerty or one of the other companies specializing on collector car insurance. Even if you don't have insurance coverage with them, they can give you a better estimate of collector value of your car than the typical general insurance company. In addition they can also give you the difference between collector value of your car repaired versus collector value of your car repaired with a salvage title.

I remember reading in a Road & Track magazine probably 20 years ago of a man who sued an insurance company because they were only going to repair his Porsche 911 that had been rear ended. He argued successfully in court that the Porsche was worth significantly more in original condition than it was as a repaired wreck. I think the court ruled that the insurance company owed him an additional $5,000.00 over the cost of the repairs to cover loss of value on a collector car.

injdinjn

Another thing to consider is working with the body shop, making a deal where they keep the cost under total as far as the ins co is concerned and you cover the rest. It suks but keeps clear title.
Then later on you can rub Limburger cheese over the idiots CAT.

Duck

Today I had my first appraisal. Tony's Body and Paint in Alhambra came over and since I was willing to provide a replacement door, fender, and do the paint myself, I was able to lower the total cost (labor only) to $1,200 (he wanted $800 for parts, $1,200 for paint), so it would have been about $3,200 turn-key.

Tony says he's got 40 years autobody experience and understands the value of classic cars. The guy who came with him chatted constantly about the '87 IROC he had and how he wishes he still had it (hear that all the time, don't we?). Here's the link to some of the work he's done. www.picturetrail.com/tonysfreelance

I'm guessing that any place that Allstate recommends will be at least double that figure (I found Tony's on my own) so I'm still expecting the car to be "totaled". We'll see...

The repair cost would have been a lot higher had the truck impacted the door sill or more extensively damaged the pillars. So good thing it's fixable at a reasonable cost.

I need a driver side front fender and door. If anyone has them available, please let me know!

bungo78

iTrader: (1)

Yoooooo!!!!

That's on the smushed side!

It's good to know that you walked away safely, considering it being on your side of the car.

Good luck with the repair!

Adrian

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Let's hope you can get it repaired. Sounds promising.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

If the accident is proven that you are not at fault, your insurance will waive your deductable and fix your car and or the Toyota insurance company will fix your car. Your insurance will not go up unless you're at fault. I hope you reported it. It would save you lots of money. The insurance total my 86 Z28 and gave me $3400 an I kept the car. It would have cost $4400 to fix the car. I was hit from the rear and the quarter panel had buckled I made over $2000 selling parts off the car. So I came out ahead. If they don't total the car take it to an authorize collision center and let them fix it correctly with a warranty.

supermariobros

man that really sux, sorry to hear but good thing no one was hurt. Also that stuff could probably easily be found at a junk yard cheap. As long as everything bolts off and new parts bolted back into place it seems like a cheap quick fix, if you do it yourself.

Russ-So Cal

I noticed that your windshield did not break or crack. Is there any hidden damage to the door post under the A-pillar? Any damage or buckling in the firewall area? If there is no damage in either of those places, the repair should be as easy as you have posted. Damage there may require the car to go on a frame straightener or even need a new firewall which would probably result in it being totaled.

Guest

Wow, sorry for the loss.

I see in the pic it looks like you rear wheels are offset like as if you have severe chassis tweaking, so to say it does not look promising. It may have tweaked the entire unibody over to the right like a parallelogram.

Duck

The car has a 4th Gen rear, so the offset is normal. Far as I can tell at this point the fender and door absorbed the energy without affecting the chassis. It would have been different is the impact had been low enough to involve the floor structure and subframe connector. When I drove the car home it didn't feel any different.

Duck

The door hinges are pushed in I'd guess about an inch, but the area above them isn't bent far enough to deform the A-pillar sufficiently to crush the firewall and break the window glass. The body shops that have looked at the car say the A-pillar door hinge areas can be pulled out no problem. Oddly, the door power window glass still moves up and down!

Duck

The Allstate rep came over today and approved fixing my Camaro. He estimated the car's value at $5,400 and wrote a fixit voucher for about $3,500, so I'll send it to the body shop Tuesday. I'm pretty pleased about it.

LTL_DMON

iTrader: (1)

Glad to hear they didn't total it, hope repairs go well for you.

Duck

Yes, I certainly hope so too. I'll document the repair process with digital photos and keep them with the car records. I already met with the shop foreman and let him know of my interest. In fact, when completed the car should be better than before, with several minor annoying things fixed, such as the power door locks and especially a very very irritating rattle that was buried somewhere in the driver side door. Having that gone almost makes all this hassle worthwhile (grin).

Guest

nice to see a very positive outlook on a situation. You obviously handle problems well and look towards the bright side.

Best of luck,
Dean

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Good news. Looks like things are working out for you. Maybe for the better like you said.

injdinjn

Good. Sounds like a good deal.

92purplehaze

iTrader: (8)

There were some ragtops in the Wilmington yards, (ecology and pyp) not sure if you had gotten to them yet or whats even left on them.

Duck

No, haven't looked at them yet, I've got enough parts, including a complete replacement top and frame to install. According to the body shop, the car should be finished Friday. That would be nice, I'm tired of driving a little buzz-box rental (even though the AC is pretty nifty). Here's a couple progress photos taken at Porsche Collision Experts.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Looks like it is going to turn out just fine. Good news.

CamaroZzz

ouch man that sucks.. i got T-Boned in LB driving my Integra.. insurance wanted to total it. but i just did the work my self.. and said EFF IT. hope to see this baby up and running again! GL

godreject

iTrader: (1)

Didn't know you could take the fender off without removing the front bumper, hope it all turns out well Duck, will you be doing the paint or will the shop cover everything

z28 TPI

Looking good Duck she will be back before you know it. Sans door rattle LOL.

crazy_hotrodder

Wow, I wish I had been on here more recently. That was a crappy est at least on the parts end, they are making a lot of money. They can get what they tell you is OEM parts aka junk yard stuff dirt cheap, and reproductions are even less the only thing expensive on our cars is the rear bumper, a fender costs between $30-$40 and if they do a lot of work with the yard/warehouse they will get another 20% less than what I used to pay. A door is less than $150 everything else is just shop time and from the looks of things you have maybe 2 hr actual body time (4-6 flag hours[@ the rate you pay]) 1.5 hr Removal and installation (3hr flaged) and 2 hours for prime/base/clear, 3 if they blend the hood and bumper, which they should do on that color, get really really bitchy, I mean really if the color does not match 100%, and DON'T drive it home without seeing in in the sun with the sun directly on the panels! red is hard to match inside because the light spectrum from bulbs plays tricks on the eyes. Red covers like crap and with the way they are going to be blending there is a good chance they will miss some primer that will be visable in the sun. Park it in direct sun light and stand back 30+ feet and walk in an arch around the car, primer will often show through only at a certain angle. Also ask if they are doing a burn in on the clear, ask that they do not, it's not allowed under insurance jobs. Make sure they do not paint the whole car if it has not been before, aftermarket never beats factory. They need to use base/clear single stage is cheap junk and does not last half as long, plus insureance work is suposed to be factory spec, single stage is not. Check every gap 3,000% most people never realise how bad most shops set their gaps. The other major problem here in socal now is "old school" guys having to switch to waterbased base coat and not doing things the right way, I have been hearing of a lot of shops not being able to cure the base before the clear, water and solvent can't mix where as urathane base can still vent through clear coat and they cure together. Waterbase base coat traps water under the clearcoat the instant someone starts to spray the clear, this makes a pocket of delaminated clearcoat and within a month it will start to move and ruin the entire job making a bad problem much worse. They should have either a heated booth (think mercedes bendz in a ford world) a massive drying rig of what looks like heat guns or hair driers, or a cooking room that the whole car can go in. Most waterbase has to have at least 30 min in very very dry conditions at 120 degrees to fully dry, most also take 4-6 coats to cover, that red could take 15-25 for full true coverage unless he has a very very close tinted primer sealer even then it will take 10-15 coats. Sorry for the length, I just want you to know the behind the scenes. Oh and the biggest expence of the whole job is that red paint.
From just the pics you have on here I see about 10-12 hours billable and 200 in parts maybe marked up to $450-parts about $800 labor and another about $400 for paint and supply. Anything over 2k is a shop owner with too big of a boat and, with a wife that didn't need to get him that boob job for the mercedes.

And try to not rush them at all, like not calling much, and letting them know you want the car soon but that they can take as long as they need to get it right. With my old shop when I felt rushed by a customer something always went wrong and took me longer, and it usually was something bad that I had to fix because of something stupid. Auto Body is art and art takes how ever long art takes to get it right. a rental box for a day or two more is always better than having to take the car back or having the paint peal in 2 years and 2 days after a 2 year warrenty.

Duck

Yep, I would have rather fixed the car myself, but my workshop is in AZ, not here in CA. The shop where it's being repaired typically works on sports cars, their work looks excellent, but I'll pay attention to all the details on mine and the repairs are lifetime guarantee, in writing.

The odd part of all this work being done is that the car is a "work in progress" anyway, and I was planning on changing the hood and redoing the body. The only glitch I see in the future is the shop having to shoot water-based paint and it won't mix well with the solvent-based PPG Deltron 2002 basecoat-clearcoat I painted the car with, so I know I'll have to eventually hide the car somewhere, scrape off the water-based and shoot those panels again properly. I'm looking forward to getting the car back, hopefully next week, as I've been in a little rental car for a month now. There's nothing quite like cruising Pacific Coast Highway on a warm summer night with the top down!

crazy_hotrodder

"The only glitch I see in the future is the shop having to shoot water-based paint and it won't mix well with the solvent-based PPG Deltron 2002 basecoat-clearcoat I painted the car with, so I know I'll have to eventually hide the car somewhere, scrape off the water-based and shoot those panels again properly."

Waterbased paint is only refering to the base coat it's self, there is no such thing as water based single stage or waterbased clear coat, yet, at least, thank God. So long as the base coat is completly dry before the urathane clear coat is applied you are 100% fine and any future paint work with urathane base/clear or any other type of paint will be 100% fine, in other words no scraping it off. I used to use water based primer on some repairs that had a uncured reactive urathane mid coat with in a repair, in those instances it is the only way to isolate and fix a spot in repair. I then after curing my waterbased primer, with a uv lamp, would use my Deltorn 2000 system to finish the repair, aka the same system as yours- PPG DBC line. For your color though you could probably get a Jobber in AZ to make that red or almost any other simple color in PPG Omni line, the base coats are exactly the same just with more pigment, which as you should know they will cover much much much faster, I made a simular red in omni, that I painted mine with, as a base and it was $130 for a gallon of Omni, but deltron was $400, and it's the same stuff just relabled, I know because I can smell it when I shot it. omni just doesn't have the surillic pearls in their line, that are in all the new cars in the last 8 years, that make them so expensive to paint. With the gallon I got of omni base I painted the entire car, it was in light gray primer, with out a sealer, and with darker colors showing through. So I had to have 100% coverage to make it red, and also painted the engine bay, and jamed the entire car for a color change, and still have a pint left over, I do have high paint transfer guns but that is insane coverage for a bright red. just a heads up if you need it.

chevyshon

i nave a new d/s front fender!shon 323-829-9323 call

Duck

Thanks Crazy_hotrodder! Your advice on using Omni as the non-metallic base paint is simply perfect - saving $400 per gallon works for me. However, it's listed as a "value" brand, which to me means "less durable" whatever that means. Why not just use the Omni clear, do you think it would be be compatible with the Deltron? Would I be able to tell the difference?

The other aspect of this is the CA restriction on solvent-based paints. Is it for commercial businesses only? I'd think there's people who prefer old-school lacquer, urathane and other non-water paints - what's their options in SoCal?

injdinjn

Paint prices here are unreal. I need to paint the mirror on the wifes T Bird and I was quoted $33 for 1/2 pint of laser metallic red sherwin-williams.

crazy_hotrodder

Duck- Omni Clear shoots great but it is way too hard it winds up chipping way too easy for any front panels on a car. I used to use it because of the cost, it shoots like a high end clear and looks really really good, but after about 2 months the front of your car will chip really really bad. I can tell you where to go out here to get your clear coat, but you will have to PM me. they are not classified as a auto paint store and therefore unregulated, I just don't want that info to be public because I don't wish for the Sierra Club morons of socal trying to kill the last refuge I have for reasonable creativity. They don't have paint lines like PPG BASF, etc, but they do have stock on every custom made product available, like House of Color, Alsa, ect.

As for your question regarding omni base, Urathane Base is Urathane base, the only difference between paint lines is pigmentation everything else is reducer inside the paint, so basicly you are buying a lot of reducer and a little bit of color or pigmentation. The ratio of pigmentation to reducer is something few people have a concept of. Basicly you don't want high pigmentation on a line like PPG Deltron 2000k because it is a refinishing paint line but you do need that line to be very vibrant in it's bright color toners, this gives you tinting abilitys for color matching spot ins.
When I'm mixing in DBC I will mix in two cups one for my light or bright toners and pearls and one with my dirty, mix in tone down toners. like in your red conv, it might have;
magenta 205g
lazer red 195g
bright yellow 99g
royal blue 25g
tangerine 22g
dark red 14g
weak black 6g
bright white 3g
that would be about the formula by names and grams, I would mix the first 3 in one cup and the last 5 in another, add a little reducer and I do mean a little like 10g each to get them flowing out of the cup better and then I would get my car outside in the sun and mix the last 5 colors slowly in to the first 3 a little at a time checking on my stir stick every time untill I hit my tint. this is because I can use the brightness of my toners to tint.

There can be anywhere from 3 to 100 variations to the paint color all classified under a single paint code, and those are just the ones that the paint manufacturer has seen and addressed there are still more and the painter has to make it either matching or blending perfectly every time. They are also affected by spray gun atomazation, humidity/dryness, spray gun; air pressure, air temp, spray gun compressor type oil or none. outside air pressure, and color and quallity of lighting at time of tent and during spray. I think I covered all of the variables, and that is just color matching your base coat and setting the flop. DBC is designed with all of this in mind. It is also a more transparent pigment, this causes it to be easier to blend or fan out but makes it 100% the wrong choice for all over spray jobs, not that it hasn't been done, but you are paying much more in this line for the ability to color match and tint, so unless you are having to blend, it is a waste of money.

This is where rule number one of auto paint omes in, NEVER TRUST A JOBBER, paint stores are the worst, they ask you a few questions when you walk in, or they let you talk for a min, the entire time they are sizing up your knowlege of the market and what things should cost. It is always obviouse who doesn't know, you will always walk out paying to much. Like them telling you DBC is one of the best PPG lines, yes...but they didn't tell you why...because they can make more money selling it to you. With my shop I had for the last 3 years in GA, I used 4 different jobbers because I know who over charged for what, and I paid less than anyone for my supplies.

OMNI unlike DBC is a "full coverage paint not designed to color match anything but itself." This means that it was designed for coverage, it costs less because PPG didn't have to find and refine toners in the line to make them too bright, and able to color match like DBC. This is the reason it costs less and that they don't do the research to make code varients to all the different variations of an auto paint code. Almost everything in OMNI is the exact same as DBC usually just with more pigmentation or less solvent in the toners.
One of my old tricks was OMNI pearls cost about $100 for 6oz, (they are dry and go a long way) DBC pearls cost $150 for 6oz, The jobber I worked with at they time showed me a letter from PPG telling them that if in a bind and they ran out of DBC pearls, they were formulated the same as omni. When you are a painter, you learn to recognize that smell tells you more than anything about a paint's chemical composition. When I drive by a body shop I can tell you what paint line they use by the smell of the air.(I have shot them all, or at least most PPG, BASF, LESSONAL, NOBEL, DUPONT, MARTAIN SENIOR-aka napa/shirwin williams) DBC and OMNI smell the same, or in other words chemically they are identical.
As to your question of durablity, base coat is irrelivant to that subject, base coat has 0 durablity period. it is the thinnest of your paint coatings, it has no uv protection and is 100% susceptable to damage. starting from the bottom, the most improtant parts of paint are metal cleaness, scratch of surface for mechanical primer adhession(see primer's tech sheet), quality of primer(spend some serious money here), primer sealer, this is where most people have a hard ime replicating a professional, I use color matched primer sealers on a all over spary jobs most of the time. This means that you only have to use the base coat to make like a red a little darker or a blue a little lighter when you are basing the car instead of having a gray that needs to turn red like I did on my camaro, this sucks and it means you are going to have potencial for more problems and are going to spend more money beacue base coat is very expencive. A very good painter can also tune the catalist from the primer sealer to control it's dry time, if you do it just right you can fully base coat the car between the primer sealer's dust free and surface cure times. This will make the base coat have a chemical adhession to the primer which is always better than a mechanical or scratch adhession, but if you are going to do this you need to clear coat immediatly after you base coat and you have to be in a clean room set up like a booth because there is no way to fix trash like dust in you coatings this means you have a chemical bond from your clear all the way to your base primer, and if you use a epoxy primer (my favorite, but not user friendly) there is no way for air or water to penatrate and you have a almost factory quatlity durablility.
The base coat is protected 100% by the clear coat, to get back on topic, the clear coat thickness and hardness provides the scratch and chip resistance, this has to do with the different clears on the market and unlike base coat every single one is diffenent and this is very relivant to your paint quallity and durablility some clears are too hard and chip, like omni, some just don't shoot well, some don't sand well but buff great, and some sand great and buff like crap, some don't have very good uv protection and will let uv light get to your base coat and that will make it fade, others can't burry graphics because they don't build thickness very well, and then there are 2 clears on the market that have no build thickness limits. It takes trying them to know this and talking to people that have sprayed them and seen their work years after spraying them. But to answer your question in a very very long message OMNI will not be any less quallity of a color for your car.

crazy_hotrodder

That is a little high, I used to pay $50+/- for a quart of toners at shop 30% discount and that was urathane. You were probably quoted in water base and the mark up here in socal is aweful. If you have any Spanish friends that go to TJ and don't look like a money target you might be able to get them to pick up some there as they have no restrictions and still have the good stuff, I haven't even shot, the stuff old guys talk about like Greek Mythology. The red you are looking for is always going to be expencive though there is no such thing as red metallic, they name it that but you can not mix red and aluminum toners they don't look right, those paints are always made with a whole lot of pearls, and the bright red toners are usually the most expencive that and blue always cost more. your best bet is if you can find someone who sells a line that all the toners cost the same, I think Dupont has a line that does and I thought BASF did but I can't remember. They priced all their toners the same, or in other words they raised the price of black white and silver and lowered the prices of the bright toners. The most common colors on cars are silver and white, so they make more money off a shops long term use, but when you walk in and get a paint code mixed it can save you some money because they don't charge more for the red toners, problem is pearls are always high.

crazy_hotrodder

Legally there are no options for anyone commercial the laws changed to a seller and user law. before it was a seller law and hard to enforce because Jobbers just put a sign up in the back room that says nothing's for sell and put all the illegal paints in that room. they would have to find a user, get him to testify where he bought the paint from, prove it and fine the seller. Now they fine the user 1-5k and then the seller 5-15k. You can spray up to one gallon of urethane paint in your driveway a day legally, but just make sure to document what you did with your excess if the wrong person comes asking. The MF SOB A holes here is so cal are even trying to get rid of this. The best thing to do is move somewhere intelligent, I hear the 49 United States of America is a nice country to live in, They call themselves free, and they even live by it for the most part, if they can just get rid of the malignant cancer of California.

Duck

The Torch Red from PPG has the following formula:

PPG DBC GM 4228 Torch Red
Deltron 2000
Qty 2 quarts

Code color cumulative grams
DMD1677 Red 1386.5 1386.5
DMD648 Wk Black 1571.6 185.1
DMD646 Wk White 1582.6 11.0
DMD1610 Orange 1587.7 5.1
DBX1689 Clear 1801.9 214.2

It's a really vibrant color, everytime I drive the ragtop somewhere on the highway I'll see other cars swerving across lanes 'cause they can't stop eyeballing it.

It's a popular color now. GM ditched Victory Red from the Corvette lineup for 2010 and replaced it with Torch Red.

Ok, so if Omni clear chips too easily, which clear would you recommend for a hobby-type hands-on guy like me who shoots in the garage and does all the final sanding and finishing by hand. I don't shoot more than a car every other year, so expense isn't my primary concern, I just like to do it myself.

Also, I'd just like say I really appreciate your technical knowledge and willingness to share your experience. I'm learning a lot.

bungo78

iTrader: (1)

Yo same here! My bird needs body work and this thread became very informative. I too say thanks!

Adrian

Duck

Well, the repairs have been finished and for the most part the damaged areas look better than before. The nasty door rattle that plagued me for years is gone, the window works like new, the door opens and closes with a solid "thud" like you feel on new cars. There's a few glitches that need to be addressed, such as when the shop removed the plastic cover over the radiator to access the front bumper mounting bolts,they lost it, but the shop owner will pay the cost of replacement. The body shop is listed as a Porsche repair center, the owner had a lot of experience racing and repairing heavily damaged cars, but the shop knew very little about Camaros (didn't know to flip the license plate down to access the lock and open the trunk). I helped them with factory 3-views of the special ways the convertible is constructed.

One thing I learned was the used parts databases didn't do a very good job of locating parts for older cars, such as mine. So I got involved and tracked down used replacement parts to expedite the process. Even so, it took almost 40 days and the insurance company was getting bitchy with the body shop 'cause the cost it was paying for my rental car was adding up day-by-day.

The biggest lesson learned was never take anything for granted. No matter how good a driver a person is, there will be vectors in life when someone else's out-of-control vehicle will aim itself at you. Just because the intersection you're stopped at, patiently waiting for the red light to change is a place where others should stop too, always watch the rear view and be ready escape being rammed in the rear because some fool coming up behind you fell asleep. In my case a truck hidden behind two lanes of traffic on my left made a turn and accelerated through an opening in the lanes of traffic backed up for a red light, ramming me in the curb lane as I slowed to stop and make a right turn at the intersection ahead. The driver said he didn't see me. Well, of course - he was focused on rushing into the driveway he saw in front of him. In retrospect, I realize there was an opportunity to avoid the accident if I had been more cautious about the one car length separation in the long line of cars on my left waiting for the intersection ahead to clear. I should have come to a stop and let the idiots behind me honk their horns, just to make sure it was safe...

I've always believed the vast majority of accidents are preventable, and as a professionally trained driver with a commercial license and a few years of SCCA and road racing experience, I know my driving skills are better than most, but sometimes the signs of impending doom converging in a street environment are so subtle we miss them. I know I'll pay more attention...

A few photos of the repairs are attached.

Awesome-X

Well its certainly good to see that it looks like its old self again.

What are you doing typing stuff on the boards, anyways??? Go out and drive that baby!

injdinjn

Glad it worked out for you.

As a side note, just before the POCI convention in Irvine in the mid 90's one of the members was stopped waiting for a red light and one of the cross traffic cars turned left in front of a opposite direction vehicle and one of them ended up on top of his Trans AM. Yeah, totaled.

itsMikey

looks great!

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

looks awesome and is the same color as my Formula.

bungo78

iTrader: (1)

Duck it looks NICE.......!

I've lived in or around Long Beach for years, yet I don't recall seeing your lovely ride around town. Which locale you stay around? Do you spend half your time in Arizona & the other out here?

I'm happy for you and that smooth car being able to continue to co-exsist.

Adrian

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

That came out real nice. Glad the car was saved.

crazy_hotrodder

sorry duck I haven't been on in a while I have had a rear main for a friend's Jeep wrangler, valve job on moms miata, head gasket on my land cruiser, and a full bushing and suspenstion rework after my fiero broke a ball joint...not my month.

The car looks good in the pictures.

as to your older post on paint

Torch red is deff not my favorite, 1677 covers like crap it is a highly transparent toner and is cause for me to look for a different varient of that code that will get me out of using 1677 as my primary base toner. it is also a little pink, that code is using a decent amount of weak black (648), the reson being that they are tring to kill the vibrance of the 1677 for starters, they are also using it to modify the pink by adding a blue/green, which is the basis for that black. The blue/green base of 648 is going to turn the pink into a more orange-(distant)magenta and going to cancel out a lot of the lighter tones because of the transparency of the both colors, the mixing of these two is the biggest factor in how dirty the final outcome color will be, when I mix something like this with intent of having to tint it, I would put about half the code's 648 in as I mix to give me a more vibrant basis to start tuning my color. The next addition was 646 weak white, this is used to try and cut down on the greening effect of 648 so that it can mostly modify in the blue/purple part of the spectrum, 646 has a pink hue in it's transparency, but again this toner is doing nothing but making your paint more dirty and less vibrant. 1610 orange is your god send even though for this code it is insignificant in quantity, this is your major orange modifier, it is one of the toners that is very very concentrated and is very rich in pigment, therefore it is the color I would focus on first in tinting although it is also the most dangerous to play with in this code. I will get to that in a sec. the reason I know 1610 is so dangerous in this code is because of the amount of the last toner in the code 1689 (clear binder) and because of how multipal very very transparent toners interact and the code's need to modify the base toner in the way it has. 1610 is in here to orange out the pinkish red, but when you have a very strong color like this in with a very weak (transparent toner) code, on a molecular level they will not mix, they will still modify each other but they will not mix 100% the addition of a large quantity of 1689 is an indication of two things 1,) it is there to float film thickness and give the toners slightly better coverage. Because in the solvent they would want to all group at the same level in the base film and it would take forever in dry times because you would have to let the base flash before shooting the next coating. 2,) it is setting the flop. the first 3 toners are the main color of the code, the last 2 are mostly making the color you see on the angles or down the panel. I don't know if you are familiar with this or not but when you look at a car every single surface or facet is a different color because of lighting mostly but, the effect is tuneable as far as paint is concerened by adjusting the flop in a color. So 1610 is dangerous because it is your most vibrant tuning agent in the code but over doing it will get you in trouble fast on larger jobs where the flop is more visable, I would be using it to tint because it can make the base more vibrant, darker, or more orange, all of which is what this code most likely would need to color match. Like I said at the start 1677 sucks because it is not very vibrant and it is way too transparent. I preffer codes either based in 622 (orange/red I can't remember the real name) or anything in the magenta family within DBC, the magenta's are probably the best pigmented toners for their vibrance in DBC. My favorite codes are ones that start with very dark rich toners because they have the most color value. You can see it in the codes when you have a very dark rich start and then a lot of small quantity rich toners to modify and brighten the rich base. This is how so many new cars that have come out in the last 10 years have really really vibrant bright almost custom looking colors they either use a little metalic or a lot of pearl in the dark rich toners with almost nothing to dirty up the color.
My camaro ( I'm sorry the only pics I had were on my old phone that will not come on) is a red that will blow you away. I based the concept on mazda's,Velocity Red that they have been putting on the mazda 3's. It is the only tri-coat red I have encountered in painting with the exception of a few mid-90"'s burgandy cadlillacs. A tri-coat, for those that do not know is a two base coat then clear coat paint job, usually with a flat under coat base, by flat I mean no pearls or metallics, just colored toners. This sets the stage for the second base coat which is usually a whole lot of pearls floating in a binder/clear-midcoat/intercoat clear, usually there are almost no colors added in any meaningful quantity except to tune the flop.
Like I said I based my red in the concept of velocity red, I used a hyaundai red as my under coat base, mostly because I picked it out of the color chip books with my jobber and because I could buy a gallon in the omni line for less then $100 at full concentration. I had them modify the code to my specs removing any dirty colors, I think we removed a blue and the black, white and one of the simi-transparent binders. ( have it with my car writen down) I picked the hyaundai code because it was one of the brightest orange based reds I could find and it used excelent coverage toners. The mid-coat was the fun one though, if you have seen the mazda 3's with that really bright red you need to look at it up close, the mid coat uses mostly Surillic(sp?) pearl in DBC it is the X line, in this case PRL X1, these pearly freaking glow they are so bright, in the containers they are mosly white looking untill you add them to a liquid (they are in dry form) The mazda code that my camaro was based in uses 3 or 4 toners that kick down the pearl, that is why it looks so bright from a distance, but if you look at one in the sun, it is amazing, and in my opinion the best looking oem color ever made. It looks like it is a mini flake job when you see it in the sun. the "X" pearls function a lot like old school flake in that they do not lay out, with a normal pearl or a metalic the base coat lines up in a droplet pattern inside the solvent and you see that on a almost microscopic level inside the paint, for most people, this is why you see a car and something just doesn't feel right, or fresh/new about a car when you look at it but you don't see anything specific. You are most likely subconciously picking up, visual clues like an unmatched base coat blend. The new "X" pearls are like old school flake in that they do not level inside the solvent in the base coat or a intercoat clear, much like custom candy jobs, even coverage is entirly up to the skills of the painter. (This is where I am at skill level wise profesionally I am trying to master these finishes) So you say what does that matter that they don't level? When you see a normal finish such as a metallic you are seeing a flat texture based in the formation of tiny droplets that all evenly match(or should if your painter doesn't suck). this is what you are used to and it is mostly a two diminsional surface. A paint product that does not settle in solution with in the paints flash time is going to dry in an unconsistant manor. With old school flake you have a object that is so course that it is forced to pile up in solution and it causes a random paint structure. Once you build a clear coat up past the highest set flakes (can take months, no kidding of clear coating, then slow open air cure to vent solvents and then re clearing, over and over and over) then you see that structure in a 3 diminsional fashion. when you walk by the surface or it drives by you, instead of seeing the highlight of the brightest lit spot infront of you and the consistancy of a normal paint surface, the angles of the different flakes catch light and reflect it all over. When moving it gives a looks of flow to the structure of the painted surface. Hardly anyone does flake jobs any more one because it is not in vogue any more and also no one could afford the labor on this stuff. New Surrilic pearls are doing the same thing on a much smaller level. the movement and flow of flake is something that can be done on a new level in these pearls. So yeah, I painted my camaro with a almost absolute pure base red and then used the pearl that makes the mazda 3's with velocity red so bright and shot it in a clear coat (beacause unlike intercoat clears or binders actual catalised clear coat is as clear as a coating comes) and then put another clear on top of that. I had some problems and it is not perfect (yet) but it is a really really bright red, and the most vibrant red I have ever seen, sprayed, or made. I then used another "X" pearl X6 (copper pearl) and added a tiny amount to a detail gun that had a intercoat+X1 in it and did a ghost tribal flame on just the side of my 6" cowl hood. And just to push what you think is possible a little bit further I mixed up a special code made in 1963 by GM for the corvette. My jobber (ACS of GA) had to show me for me to belive it, I had done a rally stripe on my car in some 1684 white thinking it, being pure white undiluted would be the brightest white I could use to go with my supper bright red, I WAS WRONG!!! In 1963 on the corvette, I think it was just called bright white, if memory serves me right there were 3 whites listed for gm in 63. The code was, basicly, 1684 white and then there were 3 other colors that went in the code one was a obscure orange one was a royal blue and one was a green. All of them were very small in quantity and almost equel volume in their values, but they all canceled eachother out perfectly and they actually managed to brighten the white. When he mixed it, I grabbed my sun gun just to make sure the flurescent lighting wasn't just casting a funny blue, but the cap of the can he mixed was most deffinently brighter than the lid of the can of 1684, and it had no hint of any tint to the white, It had to be a really special tint of blue to pull that off as that is the only color in the spectrum that could pull an illusion like that, He sold me on that one and I am not an easy sell when it comes to paint and body. I just couldn't belive that one till I saw it. Anyways. You wanted a little tech, you got it. I am tring to move on with my self tought gear head education, working in a machine shop and a cnc shop part time. If you ever need some advice on paint or even a helping hand if I can make time, I have been known to barter my time. Shoot, right now some one owes me a BBC stroker motor as I am almost finished with 2 Sprint cars and backups. Sometimes I only need a couple slices and a 16oz. That goes for anybody close enough to south OC. I love to paint for fun, I just hate painting 1000 toyota corollas killing myself and still having my utillity's shut off. Your last question was what clear to use...Duck check your PM's