ChainHartMachin

Here's a reference point for what you can have in Phoenix on your car and still pass smog.

I passed with the following #'s

My # / Standard grams/mile (1992, 89 and earlier standards are looser)
HC 0.56 / 1.00
CO 8.32 / 12.00
NOX 0.51 / 2.50

My engine is in my sig. I have the following emissions parts.
- Vapor Canister
- Two magnaflow 6000 GVW 2.5" cats (true duals)
- LT1 electric AIR pump hooked up to air tubes of both cats (I used the divert valve control from the ECM to turn it on/off)
- PCV valve
- 3 Wire heated O2 sensor (the Narrow Band simulators on WB's are not as good)

Emissions equipment I don't have (and still passed visual)
Air diverter valve
Factory belt driven air pump
EGR valve (no provision on Stealth Ram)
No AIR tubes in my headers

I use an 88 MAF sensor based TPI system with 30lb EV6 bosch injectors.

According to my cam card, I have 57 degrees of overlap (although 1.65 rockers increase my effective overlap) and I use a 108 LCA.

I did not attempt to force the car to run lean.

91 1LE

iTrader: (1)

You can have no emissions equipment on your car in Phoenix and still get registration. Get collector car insurance (very cheap ~$350/yr) on your car and you no longer need emissions and can get 5 year tags (~$80). My car has no charcoal canister, no smog pump, no EGR, long tubes, no cats, and its no problem.

ChainHartMachin

I kind of liked the challenge of getting it to pass despite the mods I have done to the motor. Collector car insurance was my backup plan.

I put this post up mainly because I've seen conflicting reports on what it takes to pass in Phoenix, so I figured I may as well post my experience since collector car insurance is not always an option for everyone.

Board member TRAXION apparently passed with an even bigger cam and nothing but cats by forcing his car to run way lean, although he was in a different state.

I might purchase collector car insurance anyways just so I never have to deal with emissions again (plus I have another daily driver).

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

The reason you see conflicting reports is that some of the people who work at the emissions stations dont know what they are doing. I've been failed for not having an egr valve (LS-1 in the RS.) and for not having A.I.R. tubes on my headers (Hedman headers on the IROC.) I also use an electric A.I.R. pump on the RS and that seems to be ok with some stations/testers, but not all.

There just isnt any consistency, when it comes to the people at the stations. Visual is the hardest test to pass IMO.

ChainHartMachin

Interesting. I've been to two different stations (7th Ave and Deer Valley station and the 110th Ave and Glendale Station) for a total of 4 tests trying to pass. Neither said a word to me about my lack of smog pump, AIR tubes or EGR valve. I didn't have the LT1 pump till the 3rd and 4th tests. For that matter, they didn't say a word about the fact that my VIN indicates V6, but the car is obviously a V8.

All they cared about was the sniffer and the gas tank pressure test. I was also rejected once because my rear brakes failed to stop the dyno rollers (a $5 spring from grainger in the prop valve solved this).

I had assumed that the computerized instructions I've seen them follow every test forces them to apply the same standard at any station. If that assumption is wrong, then I suppose I've been lucky?

What stations have complained about AIR tubes and EGR valve?

haroanarchist

charcoal canister is the only thing under the hood they ever really looked at for me and that was to plug it for the tank pressure test

I forgot my numbers theres a website were you can look it up forgot that too

My hc just would't pass tell i put in a new cat

Scootermunch

yeah, dont get me started on emissions out here. the testing station on evans in scottsdale vlew my tranny on my last project car, and i fought a good fight, but didnt have enough on them. i mean, if the golds gym across the street had cameras in the parking lot, i would have been all gravy.

i went through hell dealing with emissions on the TA when i got it. they are idiots, and the waiver station fools are even worse. to get a waiver to not have to deal with emissions for a year... you basically have to pass emissions. the waiver test was actually harder when i had mine done there.

ChainHartMachin

My first two tests, all I had was a smog canister and cats. I put on a smog pump to improve the sniffer numbers. The main reason I got the LT1 smog pump was cause I didn't have the original firebird pump and the pump from my camaro was seized. I didn't want to spend $85 on a replacement. The LT1 pump cost $4 + $14 shipping off ebay. The tubing to hook it up to the cats cost more.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

This is a good example of the lack of attention paid during visual.

And I'm not hating, but it's a bad example of "you can mix and match parts and pass!" for people who don't know how to do so properly / successfully.

Good for you working until it passed and sharing.

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

i got screwed when i would smog in az, every time it was something different, "cap was bad" "egr not hooked up" "EVAP canister missing"

when in reality none of that was true and they gave me the usual; you fail with no reason. NEVER touched any of it, went to a different one for a retest and i failed on my numbers but my visual was fine and the cap tested good..... excellent consistancy.

I cheated the sniffer tho and used 3 large bottles of isoproyl rubbing alchohol on about a quarter tank, drove for a small amount of time shakin up the "gas" in the tank, hit the sniffer and had the cleanest numbers ive ever seen lol filled up with premium right after and let it cycle itself out, worked every single time

Im just glad i dont get smogged up here now, much less of a headache lol

Scootermunch

does anyone know of a place i can go to get the gas cap evap pressure test checked? thats what was causing me to fail, but i think i got it now, and dont want to spend another 28 bucks on emissions for "shtz and giggles"

drknow said maybe autozone has a tool for it, but they didnt even know what i was talking about haha.

ChainHartMachin

Not quite sure what you mean in the second paragraph?

My visual inspection results in the online emissions test history all show "UNTESTED" for the air pump, cat converter and PCV valve. There isn't even an entry for an EGR valve. It's not like it says "pass" indicating that the inspector explicitly confirmed the presence of these items. That's what makes me think their system isn't requiring them to look for these items. Maybe I've just been lucky?

ChainHartMachin

Are you referring to the test where they hook up an adapter to your tank and pressurize it? Or the actual gas cap test? If it was the gas cap test, just buy another one and don't worry about it.

For the tank test, I failed that test on two occasions. Here's what I ended up doing to test it at home.

- I bought a gauge from grainger that reads from 0 to 3 psi. This is needed because the tank relief valve opens at just over 1psi.
- Then I made a tool from fuel line and vacuum tees that had one hose to connect to the fuel vapor line in the engine bay and the other to a compressed air source.
- I did a pressure test of the tool itself by pinching off one hose, pressurizing the other with compressed air and pinching that hose off before removing the air source. Very important to test the tool and ensure that it does not bleed off pressure.

-My testing was basically just pressurizing through the tool and pinching off the air supply hose and watching for the pressure drop. I started at the rubber line that the emissions guys pinch off in the engine bay right before the smog canister.

When that dropped pressure, I moved to the tank itself and pressurized through the vapor line there. By that time I could hear the air leaking out. Eventually I found that it was filler neck to tank junction, I ended up cleaning the area and putting gas tank epoxy all around it. Worked great after that.

All of this assumes the gas cap itself is good, so I'd start testing with a new cap or one that's been confirmed good.

Scootermunch

my cap is good. my mistake, i meant the tank test. apparently the previous owner took off the pressure valve, and i didnt spot that when i got tested. got one in now. previous owner also took out all the temp tags for the year, so instead of getting it ready for emissions, i had 1 day to get it ready for emissions. unless i wanted to pay for tow trucks all over the place and or drive without tags.

ChainHartMachin

You can get 3 day temp tags for a dollar a piece. Hopefully the pressure relief valve is all it is.

Scootermunch

you can get 1 30day, and 3 3day a year in az. doesnt matter if you just got the car and the last guy used them up during the 12 month period. its a dumb rule. ha

hey, any of you guys with collectors insurance ever have them come by and check its stored right? i have read that they dont come by, but dont want to take my chances with insurance companies.

DRIVE2FAST

I WAS THINKIN ABOUT COLLECTOR INSURANCE BECAUSE MINE REALLY ARE STORED. I BARELY DRIVE EM. WHATS THE DEAL ??

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

Its a long paper trail and alot of stipulations, just ask chris (birdtojag) lol as for the people checking, part of me thinks they woulndt want to pay people to go around checking but if they got a pay out from it I could see it as possible

Beater79TA

A lot of what you go through with collector car will be based on how much value you put on the vehicle when you ask for the insurance. The 2 I have tagged this way are both listed with a value of less than $3k per vehicle and they didn't even want pictures. The next one that I add this fall will be for a lot more and I expect they will want pictures.

As far as checking on the storage, they haven't yet and I doubt they ever will. Mainly because I don't have enough value listed to make it worth their effort.

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

They dont check unless: You have a claim. If you make a "stolen" claim and it is reported stolen from your house, they will check then...

As for the stations, I failed at, it was the one at bell rd and grand ave as well as the station at 25? th ave between peoria and cactus.

Mastiff

Just found this thread and it's pretty discouraging. I'm actually in Tucson. I would really like to know what I'm on the hook for regarding the visual. My 1983 originally had AIR, but it's long gone and I have passed twice that way. My EGR and evap are for looks only. I'd remove the EGR if I could since it barely clears the valve cover and is generally in the way.

I've been thinking about putting on a FAST EZ EFI or MSD Atom but they have no provision at all for emissions. That would mostly affect the EGR. I'm not worried about the sniffer, just the visual. My numbers with my current transplant TBI blow away the original carb requirements.

ChainHartMachin

Ironic, I had hoped the thread would be encouraging

I think others have passed in Tucson w/o the air system, or at least without the tubes into the headers. I know Synapsis passed w/o an EGR valve at all.

I wonder what the smog station would say now on visual since I've added the MAF from an infinity and the DIS coil pack from a caddy Northstar?

I might be able to get one smog test to be good for 4 years since my registration lapsed by 6 months while trying to pass smog. My registration runs out October 2012, but my smog cert expires in may 2013...

Mastiff

I'm generally encouraged by the ease of passing, I just wish it could be more clear what was expected. Being at the mercy of the dudes running the smog station sucks. I want to know I'm good before spending $2k on new stuff.

I'm really bummed the 25 year rolling exemption that was up for vote somehow fell through. I thought we had it made given the politics of this state.

92RS4US

From my experience of being a Ca licensed smog technician I can say getting tested here in AZ is SO much easier than in Ca. Certain counties have dyno testing, other less populated area use the old BAR 90 no load two speed idle test, and the desolated counties require testing when selling the vehicle. All testing is biennial and is a visual, functional and tailpipe test. They test EGR valves for operation, timing for correct settings and EVAP for leakage. As far as visual goes, if its not stock its illegal, unless its CARB approved for said vehicle. Aftermarket cats have to be OBDII compliant and correct for the year of the vehicle and visually inspected. The better benefit is the tests here are a lot cheaper too. I liked the fact I can go to my nearest station(chandler airport) drive in and in 5 mins I'm out the door.

My real question is does anybody know what the rules and regulations are regarding the test procedure? what parts are legal to use? whats illegal? anything about engine changes? modifications? I see some guys here gotten by without EGR and AIR pumps. Our '92 RS is a daily driver so I'm sure if I can get away with an exemption from Pinal County, but I may look into classic car insurance.

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

Honestly in my experience it depended on the tech, I was failed once for HC, got it down took it back and had ubder half the allowable, then the 2nd guy failed me on my headers, went to a
AJ, passed numbers and visual because that guy actually took a look at my headers and realized they were TES smog headers WITH a CARB #. Depending on the guy you could be good to go, or he can be a jerk and fail you. Just do what you know is right and go for it, my egr was disconnected from day one and not a single person caught it, I tested in AJ, mesa, and scottsdale

ChainHartMachin

How are EGR valves tested beyond the NOx reading? Do they hook up a vacuum pump and open it till the motor stumbles?

When I ordered my catalytic converters, I noticed that online vendors refused to ship them to CA? Is that part of the OBDII compliance rule (all though how are pre-96 cars handled)?

I did five tests at two different stations with a different inspector each time, it seemed like the station computer was what was driving the inspection process as much as the individual inspector. In my passing sheet, the air pump, pcv and cat converter tamper fields all indicate "untested". I doesn't make sense that they would just leave it up to the inspector to decide when to check for these things (not to say that I know one way or the other given what others have posted).

Beater79TA

A lot of the visual check depends on how well you passed the sniffer. Most times I've failed the sniffer, they've done a thorough visual to see if something is missing to skew the numbers. If it blows clean, they usually just run the gas system pressure test and let it go.

92RS4US

Well like I said CA tests are way different. Smog techs are trained and licensed to visually inspect for any tampering and modifications as well as damaged or missing components. Techs have to follow the rules otherwise they are fined and their license is revoked. The state has the bureau of automotive repair which is a consumer watch dog so stations and repair shops do their jobs to the letter of the law and not rip off customers. Phony smog inspections were a huge problem too. In the old days we used to hand write the certificates which you could sell for $100 and then they switched to electronic certs so you had to do what was called "clean piping" where you used another car to run the test. You just input the VIN and info for the car that needed the smog test. In answer to the EGR question, yes we would check to see if the valve opened and the engine would stall and also check to see if it was getting vacuum to the valve. NOx emissions are tested under load so if NOx was high most likely the cause was from an faulty EGR system. And yes alot of it was up to the technicians discretion based on the rules and his knowledge and experience. Some guys would blow thru the test and not check for anything and get in trouble while others would take 20 mins and nit-pick everything and would have alot of failures. This also throws a red flag with the BAR. OH yea...the BAR will send undercover cars with tampered equipment to see if techs are doing the right job and not cheating the program. As far as cats go, for pre '96 cars the cat has to be CARB approved and the correct one for the vehicle. What alot of guys are doing is using a OBDII cat on a pre '96 car. They're more expensive but they work better because they have more of the reactive materials to burn cleaner and heat up faster than the older cats. Pre '96 cats are cheap and don't last two years. Good smog techs visually inspect for the PN#'s and look for the CARB EO number and verify with the BAR that its a legal cat. With older cars it's not so stringent but last time I ran a test the BAR official told me the cat still has to be the correct one( can't use a truck cat on a car and vise versa)

92RS4US

I agree that regardless what's under the hood if it passes the sniffer it should be good. The EVAP system is another thing. The problem is that when the car sits it can release alot of HC's into the atmosphere.

Has anybody tried E85 yet? can you get an exemption for using alternative fuels?

Oh and did I mention that the test standards are recorded in parts per million that in grams per mile?

ChainHartMachin

Is it a correct assumption that any modification not visible on the outside of the engine (cams, rockers, perhaps heads) can get through CA smog as long as the sniffer passes? As an example, I remember Comp Cams Magnum rockers came with a CARB EO sticker, but what is the use of such a sticker unless CA takes off the valve covers?

92RS4US

Pretty much yes. They can't prove you changed something internally nor do you have to prove you didn't. Although sometimes it can be obvious but the rule of thumb was if you can't see it or prove it you have to assume its good. Case in point, roller rockers and camshafts and stroker crank kits. By the letter of the law if it doesn't have a CARB EO# it's illegal but how can we prove it? The stickers are really a legal formality to be considered 50 state legal for sale and use in CA on pollution controlled motor vehicles.

Mastiff

Anyone know what the story is on the collector car exemption?

92RS4US

Far as I know if you get collector car insurance you're exempt from emissions testing. I don't know if you have to have the historical vehicle plate(the bronze one) or not. But I think there is a mileage limitation

Mastiff

Yeah, I wonder what the limitations are. I kind of get the sense that mainstream insurers don't offer the right kind of insurance.

92RS4US

Yea you have to go to companies like Hagerty Insurance or somebody. If you going to go to the Goodguys show this month they have reps from classic car insurance companies that can give you the info you need.

libolt

I'm hoping to get my TA road worthy in the near future and to pass emissions. It's pretty much stock except for the pacesetter smog legal headers, CAI and 3.42 rear end. Last year when I attempted to pass I failed with the following results:

HC 1.42 / 1.00
CO 29.50 / 12.00
NOX 2.06 / 2.50

Hopefully the Bosch III injectors I plan to purchase to replace my failing ones will help. I've already put a new MSD cap/rotor on along with MSD wires and replaced the spark plugs with stock AC Delcos. Any suggestions are certainly welcome.

ChainHartMachin

Some tips:
Have you replaced your O2 sensor recently? The single wire O2 that thirdgens use is around $20. Also check for exhaust leaks upstream of the sensor as this can skew the reading of O2 sensor towards lean exhaust, which causes the ECM to add fuel.

Make sure you have the AIR system hooked up to the catalytic converter.

Make sure your base timing is set according to the emissions sticker under the hood (usually 6 degrees for TPI's).

If your injectors are failing (depending on how) that may be a lot of the problem. Make sure you purchase the bosch design III injectors whose flow rate at 43.5 psi matches your existing injectors.

It would be a good idea to get a new test after you replace your injectors so you can establish a new set of baseline numbers especially since the first re-test is free.

libolt

Thanks for the tips. The O2 sensor has not been changed since I bought the car 5 years ago. So I will add that to the list. Good point on the exhaust leaks I will make sure all the header bolts are nice and snug. I am planning to go with the Bosch design III 19lb injectors from Southbay when I have the funds. I'm also planning on putting in their adjustable fuel pressure regulator since I will already have everything apart. The timing isn't something I have messed with before but I will make sure it's at the stock setting.

Thanks again for the advice.

Beater79TA

Almost every insurance company offers some kind of collector car policy. Once the policy is in effect, they notify MVD and your car becomes emissions exempt. However, all of these policies come with restrictions. Most common are:

1. Car must be kept in a garage
2. Limited mileage per year. This varies by company. State Farm limits it at 1000 miles per year. Others are higher.
3. Not used as your daily driver, ever. Some will expect you to have 3 vehicles so the collector car is not your backup if your daily driver breaks.

The bronze antique plates are not required to have collector car insurance. Your rates might be higher on this type of insurance depending on the value you want them to insure the car for.

Beater79TA

Another thing to look at is the age of the catalytic convertor and how much do you drive the car. I have one that routinely needs a new cat every 2 years for the test because it isn't driven very often which allows moisture to condense in the cat and degrade performance.

libolt

I have thought about replacing the cat as well. It's 5 years old. I had it put on after I bought the car because it didn't come with one. The shop welded the air tube on the cat to the one on the exhaust so I will have to cut that off. I've put about 7000 miles on the car since 2007 and hardly any in the last couple of years due to replacing the fuel pump and failing emissions.

Mastiff

I put in an application with Hagerty. The quote was a little more than my normal policy but not bad. The main thing is that you have to have another car for every driver in the house, and it has to have a garage space. No emissions.

ChainHartMachin

Design III bosch 19lbs were used in a lot of vehicles. I had a Cadillac 4.9 that needed new injectors because one of the original Multecs had a spring break and basically dumped in fuel all the time. I got a set of 8 Yellow bosch's for about 80, they worked great. One replacement injector at A-zone was over 150.

I also agree the cat itself may be an issue especially if your failing injectors are causing the engine to run rich.

libolt

Yeah the Autozone/OReilly injector prices are crazy. I can get all 8 for 155 at Southbay. I do think the car is running rich, the exhaust certainly smells like it.

BigWhiteGTP

Hey Michael, glad to see you still have the Trans Am. I strongly recommend the Holley Adjustable Fuel Pressure regulator. I had it on my GTA and it was so easy to change the pressure because of the large diameter dial on top. And the timing should be stock.

libolt

Yeah I have no plans of getting rid of it. I will take that into consideration. Right now I'm just working on it when time and money allows. Did you replace the passenger window motor at some point? I did a couple of weeks ago and noticed its been done before.

BigWhiteGTP

Nope, never did. Were screws in place of the rivets?

libolt

Yes, someone even drilled the necessary holes for the easy swap method detailed in one of the other sub forums. So I didn't have to take the regulator out.