Larry Dunlap

Ill ask him but Im not sure it will provide much more useful information. I guess it would be best to use as a baseline for the tuning session, however the other one was pretty close and the curves were real consistent. I know it said 244hp which sounds better than 240 hp when we are trying to compare our cars around the beer cooler

When Barry gets his car going us three need to meet up for a little round robin tournament, winner takes all (of what I don't know, except for bragging rights). This will be after my cutout is installed and Ive done my tuning session and found that extra 20hp that Owen says is in there.

esc

iTrader: (6)

That may be. But (aside from bragging rights) the actuall numbers are not that important. As long as you go to the same Dyno next time you will be able to make a clean comparison between now and then and see what kind of difference your mods really have made. Not to mention the on-dyno tuning, which is hard ro beat.

Zap Racing

IF Barry gets his up and running, we will determine it on the track not the dyno! At least for me--the numbers on the dyno are nice but the bottom line is track et's.

Give U a good example--Z28 Evans--by the Dyno was in the 317 range, where I was in the 260 range, but his best time at HMP was 8.70's-- my best time was 8.40's. So Dyno numbers can be deceiving--just cause U can crank out more on the dyno than someone else, does not necessarily mean U are faster!!!

Wheel Spin

That would make a PRETTY GOOD central theme for the Summer Bash

Zap Racing

Well, I am NOT going to do a "summer bash"--I personally do not plan on putting anything together until the Fall Brawl, so if U guys want a big meet during the summer, somebody will have to step up and organize it.

However as far as Barry--our grudge match is on as soon as The boy can get it together. I'm sure Larry will be involved in it somehow, since He and I run ET's so close, it's almost scary sometimes.

To borrow a phrse from the sports or PRO wrestling world, we can call it:

"THE TRIPLE THREAT MATCH!"

Zap Racing

U don't have a back seat!

Mr.Wolf

iTrader: (1)

well guys i made it home alright, thing is i really don't know how to tell what a slip feels like when its does, can some one elaborate pls. thanks owen for the input and i will definently be having you do the tranny.

Wheel Spin

Anyone considering changing shift points after seeing your dyno results? I have my light set @ 5k, but am now considering dropping back to 4600 or so after seeing my graphs. "Flat" hp across the board, but tq was highest at the start of the run (277@3600), held well to 4200, then dropped on a smooth curve to 180@5300. I think I'm giving away time by pulling beyond 4800.

Comments?

Barry 85IROC

First of all, INCREDIBLE TORQUE!!!!!!!!!!!! I'd try shifting at 4200-4500 just to see what happens.
----------
[QUOTE=Zap Racing]However as far as Barry--our grudge match is on as soon as The boy can get it together. I'm sure Larry will be involved in it somehow, since He and I run ET's so close, it's almost scary sometimes.

QUOTE]

How are you going to feel getting beat by a BOY? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

Zap Racing

U might be. Part of what a dyno run can do for U is tell where your shift points should be (or help determine)-- when the numbers start falling off, is about when U should shift.

After I did the first run, I asked Owen if he could tell where mine starts to "nose over" by looking at the graph of the first run--he said at 5800--which is pretty much where I had determined over time, from making a bunch of passes, and my butt dyno, told me it was starting to drop off.

I guess I did a pretty good job of figuring that out over time, cause I have my shift light set at 5800. Yesterday, I bumped it up tp 6000 and told Jay to let out of it when the light came on. I wanted to hold it open a little longer than normal, to see if I was shifting too early.

I normally let the light come on in the 1/2 shift and wait hals a second to shift. For the 2/3 shift, I normally watch the needle and shift when it is about to hit 5800, sometimes the shift light comes, sometimes not.

If the numbers had started falling off any earlier, I would be considering shifting at a lower rpm. If they were not falling off by 6000, I was going to tell him to take it up to 6200 next pass, and of course adjust my shift points to wherever the numbers start to drop, next time I went to the drag strip

Zap Racing

What rpm does the hp start to drop?

Wheel Spin

Suprisingly flat, 200hp from 3950 to 4700, then a smooth curve down to 180hp at 5400.

Those numbers looked odd when re-reading my previous posts, thought I had tq and hp mixed, but no they are correct. HP & TQ merged at about 190/5075, then followed the same curve.

xtremeirocz

craigs pulls that high of rpm mainly because of the mini ram he has on the car, between wheel spin, zap and larry there are three totally different setups with three different intakes so your power band will always be different, i think larry's was the most impressive since it was done with a th-350 instead of a 700 r4

Wheel Spin

Yeah, Zap and Larry are both different, and impressive nonetheless. I'm stock TPI limited, so not surprised or unhappy with what I ran, quite the contrary. I did as well or better than expected. After getting the dyno run (my first), I'm happy with the state of tune and see where I can maybe improve track times by changing shift points.

Jay, I know it was a long day for you, and I appreciate your hard work out there. And just for reference you had the BIGGEST grin on your face on every pull

xtremeirocz

i saw a lot of people taking pictures, i m surprised i havent seen any posted yet, someone should make a picture thread

Zap Racing

Hey Jay

Did U dyno?

numbers with/ without shot?

Zap Racing

Try to post plot of my best run.

Well, I'll be............ it worked!

Wheel Spin

Good Job!

Here is mine, all three runs.

z28evans

Howdy,
I've attached my dyno chart, Blue is with the TPI intake and Red is a 'Cold Air Intake' run (removed the tpi intake). 1998 LS1 stock, with 2001 Exhaust manifolds, M6 trans.



James

Zap Racing

What is an M6 tranny?

z28evans

M6 - T56 - Manual 6 speed

Larry Dunlap

Can someone explain to me why my power band is so much different that Zaps. His is like 5500 to 5700 rpm and mine is like 3800, then flat to 4400. That's a huge difference. Also why am I making a lot more torque, his is like 250 something and mine is 283. I thought the superram was supposed to make better high end torque without a sacrificing low end torque. The max torque is at like 4800 rpm

Wheel Spin

Don't the SR and MR use different bases? The SR base must be closer to the stock design, meaning a longer runner length? Higher TQ, lower rpm.

Have you scanned a graph Larry? I missed it if you did.

Larry Dunlap

I am attaching my scan here. Well Im sure the bases are diffferent. I know the superram setup has a large plenum and short runner. I think the Miniram setup has a small plenum and short runners.

Its weird, Its like Owen said, Zaps and my graphs are exact opposites. Craig makes more HP high and me low. Craig is lean coming down to ok, and Im rich coming up to ok, then rich again.

I believe according to this that I should be shifting about 4500 rpm before the HP starts to drop off. . Is that right ? I don't use a shift light, just seat of pants feeling.

I didn't get a copy of the first run, the hp was higher, 244 on that one and the torque was similar

Wheel Spin

Well, your tq is good throuh 5k, and that is the actual work that is being measured by the dyno. I'd suggest a 5-5200 shift, and I highly recommend the shift light. The dyno gave you real numbers to work with vs SOTP. With my setup the components can be hidden pretty well if that is what you want.

I think the SR base runners must be a little longer than the MR to explain the diff between you and Zap.

esc

iTrader: (6)

You want to spend as much time as possible in the lower gears because of the mechanical advantage. You also want your after-shift HP to be higher than your pre-shift HP.

If you shift from first to second at 4500 your rpm will drop WAY too low. I would probably shift around 5500 to 5800 if I were you.

Zap Racing

It's because I have the mini-ram intake and a ZZ-9 cam +my heads have been port, polished, + cc'ed. The mini-ram is designed to up the effective rpm range for a TPI especially when using the ZZ-9 cam. Both pieces were made by TPIS to be used together on L-98 street engines. Go the the TPIS web site and look around at the info on both pieces. I don't know if they have the full ram on their site. Plus the fact that the TPIS version of the miniram is ported and polished--where the edlebrock version (who actually casts it ) is not--I suspect the full ram is not ported or polished either.

Also, do a search for "mini ram VS. the super ram" on the TPI board--it's a subject that has been beat to death--I'm sure U will find out som good info--let us know wht U find out when U are finished.

Larry Dunlap

OK, interesting. Ive got the LPE 219 cam sitting here in a box that is supposed to be made to go with the Superram intake. Ive been waiting to do a whole engine rebuild instead of just heads and cam. Maybe I should just do heads and cam anyway. I wonder what AFR 190 heads and that cam would do for me.

Zap Racing

Here--start reading


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/sear...earchid=104858

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/sear...earchid=104865

plndtx

I was reading in my latest issue of car crapt mag and they were doing more work on their 5.7 firebird. On the dyno they were seeing a lean condition so they bumped up the pressure on the adjustable fuel pressure regulator. They claimed it fixed the problem.

I pulled this thread up and looked at the dyno graphs that were posted. Does anyone think that a bump up in pressure would help wheelspins A/F ratio? It looks like he is consistantly lean, would more pressure get more fuel into the engine?
One other question, for everyone who posted dyno runs, how old are your O2 sensors? Could your engine think that the a/f is correct because of faulty o2 feedback? I read in another mag the sensors need to be replaced about every 70k. Mine was only about $23.

Wheel Spin

My O2 is new, installed last fall with the new headers.

I am actually running a bit rich. I have an AFPR, pressure currently set at about 44psi. Owen felt a pressure change would soon be compensated for by the computer. Based on the O2 sensor input, the computer "thinks" the A/F ratio is correct.

Zap Racing

My O2 is about a year old

esc

iTrader: (6)

I THINK that if your FPR uses a vacuum signal, so that it only increases pressure during full throttle(open loop), the computer will not compensate.

Wheel Spin

Hmmmmm. Good point. I have the Holley AFPR, and it is vacuum referenced. Not sure how works, but it is "set" with the vacuum removed, then drops around 5psi at idle when the vacuum is applied. Anyone?

Zap Racing

The guys that hang out on the TPI board would probably be able to answer that----or maybe a search? I don't know--although would like to!

esc

iTrader: (6)

Yep, that's pretty much how it works. The only time the added fuel pressure exists is when the computer is in open loop anyway, so it doesn't lean anything out. This is a "RIG" that was created before methods for reprogramming your computer were easily available.

It should have adjustments for how much vacuum is required to go to the lower pressure and also for the difference between low (normal) and high (full throttle) pressure.

Disclaimer: I've never used one, so I'm no expert.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Just thought I'd throw my $ .02 in........

The reason why your runs show a little rich is due to the ethynol we now have in our gas. The o2 picks it up as a slightly lean condition and the ECM then adds fuel causing the WBo2 to show a richer reading.

Anything leaner than a true 13.0:1 AFR at WOT is dangerous to your motor.

LArry - leaning out your motor to 13.0:1 from where you are at now will not gain you 20HP. I predict 3 - 8 RWHP (I could be wrong, but this is my estimate). If you think the above prediction is worth the money, I'll still be more than happy to tune it.

ZAP - your AFR graph looks pretty damn good!

Also remember that a tad rich is WAY better for your motor than a tad too lean.



But then again, what do I know....

FbodTrek

How is running nearly a 17:1 AFR good at peak V.E. ??? I think you were looking at the wrong graph Mike.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

What are you talking about?

The graph that ZAP posted on his run shows mid 14's:1 to pretty darn close to 13.0:1 at redline.

Zap Racing

What is "peak VE"?

esc

iTrader: (6)

Peak Volumetric Efficiency: The RPM range at which your engine pumps air/fuel through it's self most efficiently.

Generally stated as a percentage. So a 350 CID engine at 90% VE would pump 332.5 CI of air/fuel per cycle (2 revolutions).

Zap Racing

Are U talking about this one?

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...untitled-0.jpg

The highest I see is a shade over 15, and that's when U first punch it after holding it steady at 3000 for a while--once it settles down and computer has time to take control and adjust, it looks like it's between 13 and 14 and finally settles at about as flat a 13 as U can get in the real world--unless I am reading the graph wrong?

Mike had always said he thought he could get a little more out of it, but I don't know if he could or not!

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Yep, thats the one I'm talking about. Fbod just needs reading glasses...

The part where it's a hair close to 15 is the brief second where the ECM is making changes (switching tables). Tuning a modded motor w/ MAF setup close to 13.0:1 while NOT using a WB to tune from is pretty hard to do. ZAP's car is tuned well. If I were to lean it out anymore or get ANY more aggressive with his timing, his motor starts to detonate which trips the knock sensor which in turn retards timing which kills HP. I don't think I could squeeze anymore power out of his setup with-out a good set of heads.

You do NOT want to lean your motor out anymore than 13.0:1 at WOT.


Larry - you figure out what you want to do? Sunday is coming up fast and I need to know if want go with it or not.

Zap Racing

I like mine as is!

Thank U Mike!

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)