BPWilliams

Zlat - comming along very good, looks great!
On the headlight covers did you put washers behind the covers on the rivits? Or just put them into the plastic and call it a day? I am going to do the same on my headlights and just make a little more down force up front.
I just noticed that you are not running an alternator? are your events short enough to get away with battery power?

Drknow90 here is the link to NASA AZ http://www.nasaaz.com/ Also SCCA still runs here AND I am an instructor with NASA so If you want to get back on the track sign up and I can help you out. We are down until August so get the ride ready!

zlathim

BP- Thanks!

No we didn't back up the rivets with washers. I was concerned about the rivets breaking the plastic, but they worked out just fine. The rivets are aluminum and worked just fine in the plastic. We put a rivet every two inches, just to make sure though.

Yes, our events are fairly short. The heat races are like 10-15 laps and the main event is 35 laps. No one in our class is running an alternator. We are the only ones running an electric fan though, so we will drain our battery more than most of the other guys. We are running a deep cycle battery, so we are confident that we will be ok. We will be taking a fast charger with us just in case though...

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, while everyone else takes a break for winter, we take a break for summer! LOL, I may need a refresher! Every time I drive by firebird on I-10 I look longingly at the track on the east side (Close to I-10) <sigh> Maybe I can compete in "Race prepared" Or whatever class is the equivelant. Used to race "B race prepared" before. The RS wont be ready again for at least 2 more years and my Trans-am would put me into a class with much better handling cars! But the IROC.... Maybe a different story. Thanks for the link! I will check it out and PM you!
--Jason--

1brd2brd3brd4

Get a 14 inch air filter at least 3 inchs tall. K&N about $40-50

1brd2brd3brd4

Gottcha! I'm about an hour from V.I.R. I would like to go down and check things out and would love to run a car on the track! I like going in circles, but I also love to turn in either direction

Whoops! I ment to quote BP on what and where he ran

BIG_MODS

iTrader: (9)

Zlathim,
I'm sorry if you already posted this info. I skimmed around and couldn't find it, but thought I remember reading it. Are you using a spherical bearing in your upper strut mounts? If not, you will damage your struts. The strut changes angle from full droop to full compression and the bearing is necessary to account for that angle change. Also as someone mentioned, the bearing is there for rotation.

I'd look into getting a 3/4" spherical bearing. The strut is slightly smaller than that so you will have to turn an insert to take up the space. And make a housing for the OD of the bearing that will bolt to your plate.

I like everything else

zlathim

No, we don't have anything like that. Our upper strut mount is rigid. The more I think about our set-up, the less I like it. It is Nick's car though, and he makes the final decisions. I'll mention it to him, but he won't listen. Just like everything else I try to tell him.

Ca[maro]88

iTrader: (2)

yeah like he said, a 14X3 air cleaner would work good. you can even get one that says Edelbrock on it!!! lol or you could get a little meaner and get a 14X6 just for the hell of it. they look beefy

1brd2brd3brd4

14X6 looks great and works great..........unless you have to run a hood....LOL Hard to get a drop base to go down that far. I did run one on my Malibu, but it wont fit dads camaro. Even with a small cowl hood. On the malibu I had to put a rod at the back of the hood to hold it up enough it wouldnt hit the air cleaner and break out the top of the carb where the air cleaner rod goes in

nicklane

The upper strut mounts are kind of a experiement and i guess i missed addressing few things like the angle of the strut changing at the top. With your guys advice I think this will be an area that will be changed this winter. As it is now were going to run it and keep an eye on things.

We now have the driveline and exhaust on. The exhaust is dual 2.5" with 16" glasspacks. Driveline is 3" with spicer joints.

Were going to scale it tomorrow and take it to the track for tech and practice thursday.

More pics to come.

zlathim

Sorry, I was informed that the info that was originally in this post was not supposed to be shared. My bad.

BIG_MODS

iTrader: (9)

No disrespect, but I think you will have immediate problems without a bearing or a rubber bushing. Something has to give. You could keep the nut loose, but if you do that you won't have any camber control and it will be loose. If you tighten the nut you will either bend the strut rod or worse - break the top threaded portion of the strut clean off and then your wheel will flop wherever it wants.

Check out here: http://www.fkrodends.com/SphericalBearings/fksfkst.html

You can get the bearings through:
AED Motorsports
Dave - 317-334-0569
$17.30 ea. last time I checked a couple years ago. Get 3/4" bearings and machine a sleeve to take up the difference between the strut rod and the bearing ID. Spec out an F2 fit (Standard/snug)

Or you could find a way to bolt the factory cc plates back on. They use the bushing to account for the angle change.


I'm impressed with the weight your car came out to. That is encouraging for me

zlathim

Well, we're gonna find out very soon if those camber plates cause a catastrophy. Nick has the track reserved tomorrow for some practice laps. Then if all goes well, he is planning to race on Saturday. I won't get back into town until late Friday night, so I will miss out on the practice session, but I hope to be able to make it to the race. My wife probably won't like that because I've been gone for a week and a half, but hopefully she will understand. We will keep you guys updated.

I guess that if we have a catastrophic failure, we will load it on the trailer and go back to the drawing board. If not, we will definately keep our eyes on those plates. Remember, we never claimed to be very smart!!

zlathim

Well, I don't have any pictures to share, because I wasn't there, but Nick put some laps on the car yesterday. Before he did that, the tech inspectors gave the car a thorough inspection, and it passed with flying colors.

I will let Nick describe the handling of the car, but I will tell you that he was pleased with it. There were also some other guys there that were impressed as well. One of them is the owner of the track, so we feel good about the car right now.

Nick is going to race tonight. I'll take some pictures and get them posted up. Wish us luck!

1brd2brd3brd4

Well Great that you got the car finished! And good luck tonight!

zlathim

Update: First Race

We took the car to the track today for our first race. Nick got all the loose ends done while I was gone. He got the lexan windshield in and all the sponsor stickers on the car. We think it ended up looking good.







As you can see, Nick ended up painting the hood and deck lid satin black. The picture makes the paint hood look really streaked, but it does not look that bad in person.

Yes, we ended up running the crumby air filter. We checked it often, and intend to continue to keep an eye on it until we can get it changed out. We maxed out the budget a long time ago, so it stays for now. There are a few other things that need taken care of first.

Nick finished up a few details on the strut mount. It now has adjustable locking bolts that will keep the strut rod from shifting in the slot. :



So far, so good on the strut mount. We measured the max travel on the strut rods every time Nick made laps, and the rf strut rod traveled 2-1/8". The Lf traveled 1-1/2". If it is binding at all because of suspension travel, we haven't detected any evidence of it. The car handled well. It didn't push in the corner, nor was it loose.

The engine had great power, but we did have a couple of problems. The car tends to spit up power steering fluid when you run it at high RPM. The reservoir overflows enough to get a little oil on the front of the engine every time Nick would take it for laps around the track.

We also have an engine temperature problem. It is not cooling like it should be. A pretty savvy race car guy named Kelley walked up, looked at our set-up and in about 15 seconds announced to us what the cause of both of our problems were. Our crank pulley is too big. It is spinning the PS pump too fast, causing it to cavitate and gurgle fluid. It is also spinning the WP too fast, which makes the coolant circulate through the radiator too fast. If coolant flows through the radiator too quickly, it will not cool sufficiently.
This pulley set up would be fine on the average street car that only runs 2200 +/- RPM all the time. When you run 5000 RPMs all the time, it simply spins everything too fast. Rookie mistake.

zlathim

Ok, so Nick has never raced before. He had the car on the track on Friday, and got to put in a few laps alone on the track. He passed his tech inspection and was ready for the race on Saturday. (I am writing this at 1:30 am Sunday morning after just having gotten home and uploaded the photos, but from here on out I will refer to the race in terms of "today")

Today he showed up at the track and got set-up. He got his first taste of driving with other cars on the track at the first practice at 2:30. He's brand new at this, but he did ok for his first time. After running a few laps, he brought it in and let us know the temp had reached 210 fairly quickly and it was continuing to rise until we shut it down. We knew it should cool better than that, and it was also spitting up PS fluid. Not a lot, but enough to concern us. That is when Kelley told us that we need a smaller crank pulley. I used a shop rag and a zip tie to put a diaper on the PS reservoir, and Nick was informed that in the heat race and the main event, he needed to bring the car in and shut it down when the temp reached 240. We didn't want to run the risk of damaging our recently overhauled engine. Nick skipped the second practice session, and let the engine cool.

The next time Nick took the car on the track was to qualify. He is still learning, and he didn't run very clean. The qualifying consists of two timed laps, they throw out the slower of the two laps. Nick ran a 17.070 on the first lap, and a 16.670 on the second lap. We ended up being the fastest car in the C heat of a three heat field. The A heat guys were all running in the 15's, and a new street stock class track record was set tonight by another car. I don't remeber the exact time, but it was 15.3 something something. We qualified well over a second slower than the fastest car in our class. Nick's car is faster than his qualifying time shows, but he just didn't run the qualifying laps as well as he will when he gets some more time behind the wheel.

The next item on the agenda was the C heat race consisting of 8 laps. Nick was starting scratch (in the back of the pack) along with a couple other guys because of his rookie status. Every rookie must run a yellow streamer on the back of their car or yellow tape on the bumper until he has raced in three main events. Here's Nick's rookie tape:



Here is Nick lined up in the staging lane before his heat race:



He started in the sixth position of an eight car heat race, third row outside. He ran a smart race, and didn't get too aggresive. A couple of guys in front of him spun out, and he passed another guy and ended up finishing the heat race in second place. The guy he passed kept getting loose in the corners, and Nick eventually took the low line and got past him. There was some minor contact between the two cars, but it was because the other guy was having a hard time keeping his car going in a straight line, and not because of anything Nick did. Here is the first racing induced scar on the racecar:



Here's a crumby picture of the car on the track. The red camaro in front of him is the one he ended up swapping paint with:



Here's a picture of some of the competition in the street stock class:



After finishing in second place, Nick was pretty happy. It's not like he won the Daytona 500 or anything, but we were all pleased that the car seemed to work well. The engine temperature had reached 220 though, so we knew that we would probably not be able to finish the 30 lap main event before we got too hot.

Nick started the main event in the 19th position in a 22 car field. He raced very well, passing two slower cars and avoiding the kind of trouble that sent a few of the other cars to the back of the pack. He ran 13 laps before the temp gauge hit 240, then he brought it back to the pits. In those 13 laps, he had climbed from 19th position to about 12th position. We got a DNF, but overall, we are very happy with how well Nick and the car performed, AND we got to bring the car home in one piece. We think we know what we need to do to solve to our PS and overheating problems, so we are cool with how the day went.

89ROC-Z

iTrader: (7)

Words cant describe thats so cool! Sounds like he'll be a great driver in a few races. Few questions for ya: How fast do you guys go? And when are you going to take a video of the next race lol.

zlathim

Thanks for the kind words! They are not going very fast by most standards. They hit around 60-70 mph in the straights. It doesn't sound very fast, but I'm sure it seems plenty fast from sitting in the driver's seat.

Getting some video footage is something I'd like to do. We'll need to think about that one. There is a guy that shoots video of all of the races, and you can buy the dvd for $18, so maybe we will do that.

BIG_MODS

iTrader: (9)

I'm glad to hear how good everything went for the first event.

Did you keep the nut for the strut tight or did you loosen it to allow it to pivot?

Ca[maro]88

iTrader: (2)

how bigs the track?

sounds awesome. hope you get your problems worked out with the overheating.

zlathim

Thanks!
The Nut on the strut is tight. We just wanted to make sure it didn't slip in the slot.

Thanks, we hope it is as easy as swapping out the crank pulley. The track is 1/4 mile.

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

You can't move water through the radiator to fast. It is more likely that you are spinning the pumps too quickly, but the problem isn't that coolant is moving too fast. I do agree though that a small crank pulley would help your problems.

zlathim

I don't mean any disrespect, but I'm not sure that I agree with you. Even with the WP turning at the correct speed, most guys are running restrictors in place of a thermostat to slow the coolant flow down. If the coolant flows to quickly through the radiator, it will not have time to transfer heat.

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure there are a thousand threads about this here on TGO. If the coolant stays in the radiator longer, it also stays in the engine longer, so even though the coolant will lose more heat by staying in the radiator longer, it is only because it is entering the radiator at a higher temp.
I thought people used restrictors because they were less likely to fail, and a slow warm up period isn't a big deal on a race car. But I'm just speculating, I've never used a restrictor in place of a t-stat.

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

double post

basiccamaro

We used to always run either a large washer or an old thermostat housing with the guts cut out of it in the housing to restrict the coolant flow in our old circle track engines. I always thought it was to slow the flow down, but it may have helped with high RPM pump cavitation, or the extra back pressure may have helped hold the coolant up against tight places in the coolant passages in the heads and prevented steam pockets, or something?

Anyway, Howe racing products and even aftermarket pulley suppliers for street hot rods sell pulley sets with smaller crank pulleys to slow down the belts to the pumps, so there must be a need to slow things down. Slowing the belts down also used to help keep the old style V- belts on the pulleys at high RPM too.

Another old trick was to drill out the water pump bolt holes a little bit so that you could adjust the belts just a little tighter when you weren't running an alternater in short races. Dinosaur stuff!

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

I believe that there are aftermarket water pumps made with the holes like that.

I know that there must be a good reason there are so many aftermarket high volume water pumps made, but not any low volume pumps.

BIG_MODS

iTrader: (9)

Cavitation is the problem when you spin the pumps too fast. Jones Racing told me that stock pumps cavitate around 4500 rpm. The Edelbrock pumps can go to about 6000 IIRC.

Too much flow is not an issue.

zlathim

A post so nice, you posted it twice!

Yea, that is what I was thinking too. Although pump cavitation is probably the bigger factor. Our PS pump is obviously cavitating, so the WP is almost surely cavitating too.

Consider me educated.

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, wasn't meant to be rude or offensive. 'Second post' edited

zlathim

It's all good dude. I was just messing with you.

Thanks for enlightening me about the water flow issue. I haven't read all the threads about it, but I understand that it is an issue that has beat to death with discussion on this site, and any more argueing would be counter-productive at this point.

Thanks for the interest in this thread. We'll have another race update in about a week and a half. Shop night is tomorrow, so I will post a few pics detailing what we get done.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

Summit and Jegs sells a disk that you rivet on the back of the impeller inside the waterpump. Its helps keep the water from going around the impeller.

I could find it on the website, but its in the books in the cooling section.

Here is an article showing the process and part.
http://www.carcraft.com/projectbuild...all/index.html

zlathim

That looks like a fairly simple operation. Thanks for posting it. I'll make sure Nick gets a chance to see it.

1brd2brd3brd4

We run stock pulleys and have no problems overheating. Another cheap thing you can try is take off the back of the water pump and cut off ever other impeller fin. I used a stock thermostate with the guts cut out and eventually drilled 6 1/8th inch holes around the center. I need to go back and look at your pic's to see how the radiator is in conjunction with the fan, that can play a major part in your problem also. As for the PS fluid you may have had a little too much in it causing your problem there. As long as it is touching the stick it should be good, dont worry about the "Full" marks. And dont for get to find a Z28/IROC, Trans am steering box. It helps out a GREAT deal in tricky situations!

P.S. We run stock pulley with a Gates 7355 belt for the water pump, no adjustment........you have to "Roll" this belt on to your pump if you run the correct stock pullys. I'd have to look at the PS belt, never put that # in my memory banks

1brd2brd3brd4

OK! Looked at the pics and here's some helpfull hints! Box in the area in front of the radiator!!!! This is very important! the air will take the path of least resistanse! and can and will go around the radiator. its a common problem on round track cars. I saw something else too but I have to go back and make a better mental note of it, or tie a string around my neck so I will remember! LOL. You also need to go to a 2 belt set up instead of one belt. That way you can lose one belt I.E. Power stearing and not loose your cooling ability also! It sucks to drive with out PS, but your not driving long with out WP! You can also get a good racing aluminum Radiator for around $129-170. do that, lose the electric fan. Get a 17 inch 6 blade'r with about a 3 inch spacer. No more over heating...............

P.S. Again. Get some wire looms for those wires before one bounces on a manifold and ruins it.........trust me, cheap insureance!

BPWilliams

Zlat and Nick, you guys did great! do not sweat the little stuff you will figure it out... The main point is that most of the arm chair racers will never get to feel what you guys did on a Saturday night, there is nothing like door to door racing weather on a oval or a road course, shoot straight line 10 second stuff for that matter! I am sure that you will have many a Saturday nights to learn and get better, most important ZLAT when you gonna start on your car!

Have fun and be safe!

zlathim

1brd- Yes, we are boxing in for airflow in front of the radiator. Hopefully we can get it done before we race this Saturday. We installed an underdrive pulley on the crank because we really were spinning things too fast. We were spitting up PS fluid regardless of fluid level. We ran it with very little fluid in it and still made a mess. We were actually overdriving the WP and PS pump. The crank pulley was bigger than either of those two pulleys. Keep in mind that we started with mearly a long block. All of the pulleys and stuff were scrounged from the junkyard and came out of god knows what.
The e-fan is staying. We are pleased with the performance of the Taurus fan. It is not a factor in our cooling issue. With the new underdrive pulley, we hope to take care of the few problems we have encountered thus far. We are going to box in for airflow though, because we understand it is an issue.

BPWilliams- Thanks! We are having a blast with this car. We didn't get much done over the weekend, because of prior commitments, but we will get our list of stuff done before Saturday when we race again. Nick is showing some promise as a driver, so hopefully when we get the car completely dialed in he will be running with the leaders.

As for me, a racecar just isn't in the cards. I don't have anywhere to keep it, haul it, or money to build/race/repair it. I have a lot of fun helping, so I'm satisfied with that. I might take Nick's car for a few laps sometime though, and that may change my mind!

1brd2brd3brd4

Has the car been run anymore? have you fixed your heating problem?

zlathim

Yes, we ran the car again on Saturday. It is working well now. We didn't win, but we ran a decent race. It still gets hotter than we would prefer, but all in all it is working great.

I have been really busy with family stuff and work, so I have not had much time to post here. I will update this thread in the future, but probably not as often as I did previously.

RED_DRAGON_85

stupid question, but do you have an air dam?
at 60 mph your fan isnt going to be doing a whole lot.
most of the airflow will come from air being forced under the car, hitting the air dam, and going up into the radiator.

again, i know this is a dumb as rocks question, but its a basic thing and if you arent familiar with f-bodies you might leave it out

gregsz-28

iTrader: (1)

I'm not very familiar with sport coupes, but I thought the air dam on them was part of the bumper cover...

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

The airdam is attached to the bottom of the lower radiator support

I couldnt tell from his pics, but he most likely does have one since not having one will cause you to overheat no matter the speed like you arent even turning the WP

RED_DRAGON_85

thing is, the earlier style nose seems like it would need an airdam even more than the later style.
its much higher up, and more pointy so air goes around it instead of up.
for circle track only, a fabricated sheet metal air dam will let you really scoop the air a lot better and cool off a LOT better than stock.

BPWilliams

Yes I am worried about my car also, I put in a oversixed radiator and plan on extending the shroud at the bottom of the radiator. Also I made sure to capture every bit of air comming in the front of the car with the side air dams that are stock plastic parts on each side of the radiator under the nose.

Finally got the car back on the ground, Dart block out of the shop this week.

RED_DRAGON_85

nice looking engine compartment BPWilliams

bm87ta

iTrader: (5)

Correct, welding on cast iron changes the microstructure. The graphite nodules transform to carbides. Basicly the area around the weld will become brittle.

nicklane

Hi everybody, update on our cooling system. We replaced the crank pulley with a 25% underdrive unit. using a 5/8" restrictor in place of a thermostat, and a new 2 (1")core radiator. Last Saturday night we finshed our first 35 lap main event. With an ambient temperature that night of 70 deg. we maintained a water temp of 195-200. And cooling down to 180-190 within 2-3 caution laps. So until We run it on a warmer night and see how it does we got it fixed. heres some pics of what we've got for air ducting to the rad. Its a bit crude but functional. things like the air dam can last a whole season or 10 minutes on the race track so with some templates of whats there I could probably make up a replacement in an evening.

awolfalone2006

Well I may need to head over and watch now. I have only had the chance to get to a race at Meridian once. Now I can say I know what they did to that car, I've seen it on thirdgen.

What do you think of the bathtub type urinals they have there?

Good luck with the next race.

zlathim

Come and see us in the pits after the race. Be sure to mention TGO so we can put a face with a name on here.

We were just laughing about those trough style urinals last weekend! That fancy stuff is just for the payin' spectators though, we have the basic porta-potties in the pits!

Thanks for the well wishes for the next race. If Nick can avoid being involved in every crash next time, we may finish a little better. His dad accused him of hitting everyone except for the pace car last Saturday night.