live4formula

I special ordered a fire red Formula with a 305 TPI (LB9), 5 speed manual (MM5), T-Tops and all of the other goodies in September 1988. I picked up the car on April 4, 1989. After about three years I took it back to the Pontiac dealer for some kind of service and the service manager commented that he had never seen that engine transmission combination. As I am sure many enthusiasts have experienced, I got married and soon after had to sell the car in 1994. That is the one car in my life I regret selling. I have since divorced the wife and remarried a wonderful woman that supports my car crazy needs. I have watched casually over the years hoping to find another one just like it, but I had never seen one....until two weeks ago. I found a 59k original mile car with the engine and trans and in the same colors as my original. The only thing missing is the T-Tops. The interior is near perfect and there is absolutely no rust. Needless to say I bought the car and I am working on a tune up and detailing.

My question is how many 1989 Formulas were made with the LB9, MM5 combination? I have read many articles / arguments claiming less than 50 or more than 2000, but I cannot find any confirmed numbers. Does anyone really know? I would like to add T-Tops, but don't want to modify the car if it is 1 of 50. If it is not that rare, are there any aftermarket companies that install T-Tops? Thanks for any input.

MJS422

I have the exact same car that you ordered back in 1988. I just received a copy of the invoice recently through GM archives. Can you tell me what dealer you took delivery through? Just wondering if this is the same car.

eseibel67

Would be cool if it was the same car, but I don't think it is because April 4th, 1989 predates the availability of N10 exhaust.

MJS422

Well I have the N10, and the car build date is 2/89 with a dealer due date on the invoice of 3-13-89. That would be something if it was the same car.

MJS422

Also I have been on the look out for similar cars. Is this the car you recently purchased?

eseibel67

My mistake, I thought N10 didn't get emissions certification until May 1989. It could be the one.

live4formula

MJS422, That is the car I found and purchased. Do you know anything about it? I am trying to diagnose a starting issue and a hesitation in idle. I found the car had 7 original spark plugs, the original dist cap and button and appears to be the original fuel injectors. It looks like someone tried to replace the dist cap because the rear screw was stripped. The drivers side front spark plug was different from the other 7, so I think someone started replacing them and found it too difficult. The spark plug wires have been replaced, but several were not snapped on the cap or plugs tightly. Fixing and replacing all of those things helped, but has not completely cured the problem.

As for my original car, I ran a carfax and it is still in Arcanum Ohio, but has had a salvage title issued 4 times. Breaks my heart!! BTW, it did have the N10 exhaust and this new one does too.

Any help with the idle issue would be appreciated.
Any idea how may of that combination were made?

MJS422

Not to sure on how many of this combo where made.. I am still chasing that answer down. I would have to say not very many though, based on what I have read and seen in the past 20+ years of being around these cars.

Thats a shame about your old Formula. Too many people just beat these cars with in an inch of their life.

As for your new ride, I always keep an eye out to see what is available on the market for sale. Especially for cars like ours. I beleive it popped up a few times on an internet search. That is about all I know about it.

Sounds like not much was done to maintain the car.
The problem you are describing could be any number of things.
Start with the basics, you have the tune up well under way, I would replace the ignition coil, module and check the base timing while you are at it. They are inexpensive and that way you can pretty much eliminate any issue related to the ignition system. Next check for vacumn leaks, change out the fuel filter, disconnect the fuel lines at the engine connection and blow them out with compressed air, (fuel rail also) to eliminate any partial clogs. I bet this car sat for a while and my have some issues there also. Injectors should be alright. You can the resistance on them and make sure they are with in spec. Do not forget about the fuel pressure too. That is a quick and easy check providing you have the proper gage. Outside of that you can look at the TPS and IAC motor which I would doubt are an issue. Finally the EGR may be the issue, Valve may be partially stuck open creating a vacumn leak at idle.

I know this is long winded but I hope it helps give you an idea of where to go with this. Keep me posted on your progress, and enjoy your Formula.
These cars a blast to drive!

live4formula

Thanks for the tips. I am replacing the fuel filter next. After that I will take it to a friend who is a mechanic and has the tools to diagnose the fuel system. I could chase it for months. The car runs strong and will easily spin the tires in second gear (I just had to try it!!), so I don't think there is a major problem.

I have also owned a 2002 Ram Air convertible with a 6 speed manual and the 89 Formula is more fun to drive!

eseibel67

Agreed!

I have a 2001 Ram Air convertible with a 6 speed manual, and I find my son's 1988 GTA with 5 speed is more fun to drive!

live4formula

I did like the convertible part though. Would like to have found at least a T-Top car, but the color, engine and trans were the most important.

mjdavis68

iTrader: (1)

How'd you get the invoice!

JT

iTrader: (1)

You can get a copy of the invoice from GM Archives for a fee:
http://www.gmmediaarchive.com

okfoz

I personally own 2 1987 Formula LB9/M5 cars... One with and one without T-tops... So for a generation I do not think they are particularly rare... They are uncommon... One article I read said 50 in 1989, But I think that is way off... I would actually think in the neighborhood of around 250-500 or so from 1987-1989 for each year, and proportionately less for each year thereafter Its a guess... They do seem more rare than a 350 car however...

kymmee

Congrats on the Formula purchase. The place you bought it from is right up the road from me. They have some nice cars there. I have looked at a few TA's they have for sale, but ended up getting a 89 Formula 350 from a private seller.

Also welcome to TGO!

live4formula

I think I read the same article about less than 50 per year, but I have also read several discussions about more than 2000 per year. Quite a large spread. I am surprised there are no real statistics on it. Doesn't really matter anyway. I love the car whether there were 50 or 10,000! This one has a solid rust free body, but has a few paint blemishes and the top half of the drivers door has been repainted. I can repaint about 30% of the car, buff the rest, and live with a few imperfections, or repaint the entire car. With only saving 70% of the original paint, I don't think it really saves value so I am leaning toward a complete repaint. Any thoughts?

live4formula

Thank you....thank you. I am happy with the purchase and yes the guy has a lot of great cars in his collection. I could have spent a lot more money there! This car has a couple of quirky things that a kid must have added. All of the interior lights are red. I don't remember that from my original car. The lights on the bottom of the rear view mirror, the lights in the foot wells and the center dome light are all red. Was that factory?

stealtht/a

iTrader: (1)

No, but a popular modification for firebirds since it matches the red radio and other dash lights. Gives it that "das boot" feel

live4formula

Thanks MJS422. Here is the latest update on the fuel issue. I replaced the fuel filter and the surging idle went away, however the idle was at 1300 rpm. I have a friend that is a mechanic so I took it to his shop where he has the necessary testing equipment. The fuel pressure was about 10lbs low, so he adjusted the fuel regulator and then adjusted the idle to spec. He blew out the lines and the fuel rail, but the fuel pressure is leaking down when it sits. I have ordered new injectors (refurbished Bosch D3's) from SouthBay and I ordered a plenum gasket kit with fuel rail O-rings. I should have all of those pieces tomorrow and I will see what happens next. Is there anything else that I should replace or check while I have the plenum off the intake? According to CarFax the car had 57k miles in 2002 and now has 59k. Thanks again for any tips.

MJS422

Sounds like you are making good progress and moving in the right direction too! Glad I could help. When you replace the injectors be sure to put some Vaseline on the o rings. Way too many sharp edges on the intake and fuel rail, and it is very easy to nick or cut a o ring during reassembly. You'll know if one gets damaged soon after you reassemble. Your engine bay will get a gasoline shower when the pump primes.

One last item to change would be the thermostat. Much easier with the throttle body out of the way. Be care full and presoak the thermostat housing bolts. Too many dissimilar metals there and a chance some coolant may have leaked into the threads at one time. I found out the hard way and had to drill and tap the intake after snapping a stubborn bolt. Also I would recommend a 180 stat, and a good compliment to it would be a fan switch from a. 87 Grand. National, keeps things a bit cooler by kicking the secondary fan on earlier. These cars run way to hot in my opinion, especially in traffic with poor air flow. Good luck, and keep me updated.

live4formula

Mjs422, I think I have most of the bugs worked out. I had my mechanic replace the injectors with the refurbished D3's from South Bay. When he fired the engine, it still wouldn't start like it should. There is a hidden fuse in the fuel regulator wire that had blown and somebody fixed by bypassing it. After some wire repair and new fuses, the car starts and runs like a champ. The injectors are a bit loud, but I suppose I will get used to it. I have now replaced the headlight switch and left side headlight motor, replaced the red interior courtesy light bulbs with clear and removed the window tint. I had new Cooper tires installed and I have new shocks and struts ready to go on.

I am back to my original question. Is it possible to add T-tops? If it is possible, how rare is the car? Will I be destroying the value by adding T-Tops? The car needs about 30% repaint! but has no rust or dents whatsoever. Should I keep the 70% original paint and live with a few chips or repaint the entire car? Decisions...decisions!

eseibel67

Yes it is possible to add T tops, although I wouldn't recommend it just because if you want a T top car you should just buy one, there's tons of them out there. But if you must, the way to do it is to graft the top off of a rust-free donor car.

I wouldn't worry about value with this class of car. If you do the T top conversion properly, It will neither add nor detract from the value, you will just be out the expense of doing it.

live4formula

Thanks for the tip. My priorities when searching for a car were...1989 Formula, 305TPI, 5 Speed manual, Red with grey interior....then T-tops. I found a great condition car that had the first 4 on the list, but was missing the T-tops. T-top cars seem to be all over the place if the other 4 items aren't higher on the list of priorities....350 automatic, or GTA. I can live without the T-tops, but it would be perfect with them.

I still cannot seem to find any real production data on how many 1989 Formulas with 305TPI-5 speed were made.

rick89

I bought one of these in 89 new now i have the chance to get it back.
but i sold it because a girl ran a stop sign and wercked it made me sick.
so i eventually sold it. now that guy is selling it fir $1000
should i get it back i really want to.\\
what kind of front end parts are out there?.
i need a fender, hood ,all the front stuff around there

rick

oops edited wrong year
i bough it new in 89 not got it 98

live4formula

The best info I can find is from a guy who says he worked in the marketing department of Pontiac and he claims there were 42 Formulas built in 1989 with the 5.0 TPI 5 speed. I say if you have the opportunity to get one, buy it! Valuable or not, I get a lot of attention at car shows and cruise ins with mine. Several people at the TA Nationals commented that they had never seen one. It was certainly the only one there.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Sorry to say, I find that number very hard to believe!

Cool cars, t-tops or not, the 305/5spd is a fun automobile. Couple it with performance gears and you've got a ride!

live4formula

How many have you seen in person? There were 1200+ TTA's built and I see them at every cruise in, car show and car auction I attend. I have only seen one other 5 speed Formula in 25 years. I would love to know the real number of Formulas if anyone has documentation.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I know its not a 89 but I just missed a 88 formula 305 tpi 5spd ttop car because I didn't stop and ask about it. Drove by it daily too.

okfoz

I have 2 87 Formula LB9/MM5... I have seen the 50 number, now 42 number (which is actually about the number of Formula 350 convertibles) (50 happens to be the FALSE rumor of 1989 GTA convertibles too) which I know for sure is wrong... So I find it very hard to believe that there might have been only 50 89 Formula MM5 cars

The reason why you see more TTA's and such at car shows is they were a special model, and people know it. You do not see a lot of Base V6 Firebirds at car shows either, and they made a lot more of those, so just because I do not see them at car shows, does not matter much. I brought my wife's 87 Formula LB9/MM5 to the trans Am nationals when it was at the Dayton Marriott.

Are they uncommon, Yes, was there only 50? I doubt it. When was the last time you saw a 1989 GTA with the MM5? I cannot recall even ever seeing one of those either, and but Frankie Rider has at least 366 made of those. Based upon what I have seen, My guess is between 300 and 500 per year thru 1989. If you said 92, then yes, I could believe that as there was about 250 LB9/MM5/GU6 Firebirds. They pop up every so often, but not regularly...

rick89

what is the n10 exhaust?
Is that the dual? exhaust they were supposed to have ?

We had to wait 9 months to get them. they had them on restricted build.
and they came with the single exhaust and eventually it was replaced by the dealer to the dual that they were supposed to have from the factory. cost was like $2300.00 to retofit them.
We bought a pair both identical tpi 5 spd ws6 formula black.
I hope the he still has the orginal window sticker we had them lamanated and all the literature you could get on the car.
Im almost positive ill buy it back. Going to see it sunday.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

N10 = Dual catalytic converters.

rick89

ok thanks. didnt know it had a spec. name
If you dont know the early ones came with single cat and pipe that was bigger that the standard pipes i think 3" pipes. And later started doing the duals but if you still had the car ( it was years later maybe 3 to 5 years later ) they would retofit them to the dual as I said it cost them ABOUT $2300.00 to do the refit on each car. And they had to do our 2 and the manager said he had maybe 1 or 2 others to do

live4formula

https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/KA0...rmula/5-Speed/


This car sold this morning at Mecum Kansas City for $10,000. Not bad. When I first saw the listing a month ago, it only had two pictures of the exterior. I thought it was a TPI 5 speed car. I was ready to book my flight to KC and then they posted a pic of the engine. It is a throttle body. I guess I get to stay married!

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Wow, 10k for a t-body car? yikes.

timfitz63

Well, acknowledging that auction prices sometimes get inflated when two stubborn bidders are involved, this isn't far off from where my TPI 5-speed -- with similar mileage -- has been valued. Good news for those of us who own one...!

live4formula

Should put a good version of our car in the low to mid teens?

timfitz63

Since the online version of Kelley Blue Book doesn't provide values for cars that old, I've been relying on a valuation from Hagerty. It currently says $11,400 for an LB9/MM5 vehicle in excellent condition; +10% for T-tops.

live4formula

Fair enough. I didn't buy this car thinking it would be my retirement fund, but It will keep me happier until I get there!

timfitz63

Agreed. The value of these cars probably won't provide a nest egg for their owners like First-Generation 'Birds. But they won't end up being throw-aways either.

I bought mine new in 1989; ordered it, in fact; so it's just nice to see these cars reclaiming their sticker prices as time goes on.

okfoz

Wow! I would have thought about $7-8K tops for that car, even though it is in pristine condition, the LO3 would have made me not bother. But still it shows that the values are going up... If it was the TPI, In that condition, I would think $12-$15K but I might be low too...

Cool, thanks for the link.

Jasun Henley

I got a 1987 same car as your do know what your car is worth

live4formula

It is hard to say. They do not come up for sale very often, so there is no record. I would think a clean 50K mile version should be in the low teens.

timfitz63

The Hagerty site might give you some insight on the value. Go under the "Valuation" tab and enter the information for your car.

Jonathan Marsh

This is funny!!! I'm watching Mecum and they are running Firebirds through. So I google images to show my 7 year old what I used to have in high school. I had an 89 formula 305 with 5 spd.... bought it new in 88-89. Well dad bought it new..

Based on this thread I guess I should have held onto that one!!! It was red on black. Ac only, no other power options. Back then that thing hauled ***!!!

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

My crazy clean 90 305tpi/5spd/3:42 with t-tops only got 8500 just a few months ago. Not sure where the Hagerty values are coming from.

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

heres a real nice 1990 formula 5 speed

https://worcester.craigslist.org/ctd/6016520815.html

toomanybirds

iTrader: (1)

I will be putting one up on Ebay in a week or two with no reserve, so when that one sells it should give us another price reference.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Post the link here when you do.

toomanybirds

iTrader: (1)

Will do. I don't believe it is near as nice as your car was, so I anticipate it will sell for less. It is a 1989 Formula with t tops and original paint (I believe), yes it is an N10 car, but the exhaust was replaced so the dual cats are long gone, WS6, J65, G80 car and I'll crawl underneath to get gear ratio when I post it. Funny thing is I recently bought it because I've heard that the 5 speed is a blast to drive....and it is, however I can't keep it because, and this pains me to say, I have arthritis in the big toe on my left foot and even a 15 minute joy ride leaves me near tears in pain....getting old, ain't no fun and who would've thought that a big toe could cause such problems. Interestingly, when I went to the Doctor about a year ago for the pain which is when I first got the diagnosis, I told her to just saw off the big toe and install a block of wood....I then got a twenty minute lecture about how important to the health of the entire body the big toe is...

okfoz

I have the same problem with an 87 Formula LB9/MM5, my wife loves to drive stick shift cars, and the clutch is so darned hard to push that your leg just about falls off after a while. She too has Arthritis. So I am thinking of selling that one too here not too long.