lasher_350

I'm wondering if and how many of us has done this to their babies? The big 3 upgrade with 0 guage wire for the alternator and ground. I've watched a few videos showing the how and why, and I'd like to hear some testimonials before I dig in.

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

I literally just finished mine last night. Went with an XS Power kit from Crutchfield. After cutting the wires to length, I have enough left over to do 2 more F Bodies if need be, they give you tons extra! Super simple to install, run one length from the alt + to the batt +, one length from the motor ground to chassis ground and one length from chassis ground (using the same spot as the motor to chassis) to neg batt.

I used to get my volt gauge bouncing up and down when the turn signals flashed, that no longer happens. Car feels like it starts a little easier. I turned on the AC, headlights, fog lights, hazards and had my radio on (with 250w amplifier) and it didnt drop below 13v. Overall very pleased that I did it, especially for just $50.

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_122BIG3....html?tp=36390

lasher_350

You just described my charging system symptoms exactly! I'm glad to hear that it improved yours as it did, and now I'm definitely going to do this. Thanks for the crutchfield link, I'm going to order it next week! Awesome! *happy dance*

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

Now just to let you know... When you order this kit from Crutchfield, it actually ships from XS Power directly. I had an issue where I had to wait nearly 2 weeks before it got shipped out due to them not having enough in their warehouse, but that issue has been addressed (and I was compensated by their sales manager) so you should be good.

Like I said, the kit comes with a ton more wire than you actually need, but has crimp on ring terminals so you can cut it down and redo the ends. It comes with 2 pieces of black ground at 3' each and 6' of blue positive wire. I have about 4' (one at 1' and one at 3' that I didnt even touch) of black ground and about 4' of blue power wire left over.

Now that being said, my car was wired a little different than the factory diagram... the factory diagram sadi my + wire should go from battery to starter and from starter to alternator. Mine went from battery to starter and an additional wire went from battery to alternator. Grounds went from battery to chassis and battery to motor.

My new setup kept the original + wires that were in the car and I just piggybacked the + wire from alternator to battery. Current will always take the path of least resistance, so having them both hooked up is not a bad thing.

I also have the battery negative hooked to the chassis ground via the 1/0 wire. I did not recycle the factory negative cable as my battery bolt wasnt long enough, so my grounds go battery negative to chassis, then chassis to motor... which is how the instructions tell you in the Big 3. My car originally had motor ground directly to the battery along with chassis ground directly to the battery. Would like to do motor to battery later on, just for added insurance, but I know it's not 100% needed.

Good luck and if you need any pictures, let me know.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Thank you for this. Because I have to admit....I had no idea what was being discussed. When I hear Big 3, I think GM, Ford and Chrysler.

I have an Olds Cutlass (P90) that, from the description above, could use this kit.

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

Good how to write up here... of course not for a 3rd gen, but works the same none the less.

http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/boa...ig-3-tutorial/

The Project

iTrader: (6)

There are a few threads on the BIG 3. BIGGER wire is always better...

is your friend

lasher_350

Wow, thanks for suggesting the search option, Project...you're a prince among men. Could you feel the sarcasm?

The Project

iTrader: (6)

Sarcasm...no...but, YOUR LAZYNESS YES ...there are many threads explaining the how, why and results of the BIG 3...read them until you are sure one way or the other.

Also, look for OFC wire. KNU is pretty decent stuff (check ebay).

Lastly, as I am indeed a prince among men, this is sarcasm free advice.

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

Project... if everyone followed exactly what you are saying, there will never be any new threads about anything on this forum. Literally everything to do with these cars has been discussed over and over again in great detail, so if everyone finds all the info they need via the search, they will never need to ask another question. Dont you think that would kill off any possible side discussions and make this forum pretty quiet?

I never really understood why guys always say USE THE SEARCH. Is answering the question at hand that difficult? I dont think replying to someone is very difficult, so why not take a minute of your time to help a guy out? If you cant help out, why not just move on to a different topic? I mean we could literally go through this forum and spam USE THE SEARCH in 1,000 different topics, but that really wouldnt help anyone. Guess Im just too nice of a person.

Oh and just an FYI... searching for Big 3 yields all results for Big but 3 is too short of a search term, so thats useless. Searching "Big 3" with quotes yields a ton of results talking about the Big 3 manufacturers. Searching for "Big Three" comes up with a ton of results, most talking about other subjects and the few results on the first page that DO talk about the subject of this topic are asking about the upgrade and not getting answered. One was a topic started by me in fact. So yes you are 100% right, people are lazy as they dont want to read through 1,000 results to find the information they want and honestly I dont blame them.

lasher_350

p.s. it's "laziness", not "lazyness"...

The Project

iTrader: (6)

Thanks for being the self proclaimed spelling ****. WOW six whole smiles...must be the OCD. There is more to the Big 3 than just the alt and ground.


Dev_x - I read the first two sentences but then got "lazy". Typing the same thing over and over again because people won't use the feature first is boring.

If lasher_350 or yourself have specific questions about say "best Big 3 grounding position" or tips for "reducing pinch areas" or "best 1 ga wire" or "best wire for flex", feel free to ask and receive answers.

Enjoy.....

Hmmm....only "big" three smiles...guess my OCD is normal.

lasher_350

So what you're saying is there is more than 3 to the "big 3"? Please, entertain us and explain why it's called the big 3? Also, with your wisdom, please explain also how you chiming in with a "do a search" is constructive in any way to a thread that has been established with good and accurate information already? I mean, I can understand if I, as some kind of person completely new to this forum, would post up something simple, then keep bumping it to the top to elicit responses rather than doing the "search function" footwork myself (which I did, actually, and failed to find any usefull information in any kind of timely manner) not only on this forum, but on a general web search as well. I had already researched the basics of the concept, and I was wondering if anyone on here had done so with their own thirdgen (as I pretty much stated on my original post), and which points they used, etc. etc.. It's pretty much hard to "search" for peoples opinions, and no, I don't need nor care for your input on which wires you chose to use and which, in your opinion, is the best. But thank you so very much for insinuating your two cents into what, up until you decided to post, was a very good and informative read.

You may go now.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

the point of having a forum is useful information, one thread about one subject is enough, people are constantly doing wierd things to these cars, if you can find your answers in a search then post a thread but it gets cluttered thats why everyone says search because withing 30 seconds you can find multiple questions of yours answered and if you really dont understand then thats why you make a new thread, if you have concerns post in another thread thats relatively fresh.

jrhaus76

Search button sucks in all forums. Easy just to ask again and ignore the "use the search" azzholes.

lasher_350

Notice how my post count isn't very high? That's because I USE THE SEARCH option to find answers to my questions. I'm not an attention seeking post-hound. If I fail to find the answers through extensive search variations, I post a new thread. As it should be, without obnoxious users just throwing up a "do a search" post. And if they DO choose to throw up one of those posts, at least be a little constructive in the process. It's really not hard to NOT be a jerk on the forums...just read and pass on by if you don't agree with a post.

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm... well, when I asked about the Big 3 in February, it wasnt directly about the Big 3, but if the Big 3 would help solve my dipping voltage. After extensive reading and searching, I felt the need to post up a new question as I did NOT find the answer to my question on this site. Guess what, even AFTER posting my question, the answers I got were... "Well the volt gauge doesnt work right in our cars", "Do it and let us know how it worked." and wait for it.... USE THE SEARCH. That was really freakin helpful there. So guess what, I spent the $50 on an XS Power kit and it helped.

After searching for "big three" again and reading the 5 pages of posts that come up, I find ONE thread that talks about someones experience with results from doing the big 3 and actually describing it in the manner that I did. So I guess that means one persons opinion is good enough on this subject? Or should he post his question in that thread and bump the thread back to the top from 2009... since we know how much the guys on here LOVE when dead threads are brought back to life.

Also since you were too lazy to finish reading his post (your words not mine), I imagine you didnt bother reading my replies. Here is the link I provided him for a basic tutorial on the Big 3. http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/boa...ig-3-tutorial/ I still have no idea what you meant by there is more to the Big 3 than Alt and Ground. The electrical in our cars is DC. Thats all there is... positive and negative. You add a new Alt + wire from Alt to Bat +, then add a new ground from Bat to chassis and a new ground from alt to chassis. Am I missing something? Sounds like Alt and Ground to me.

Oh and doesnt typing out "Use the search button" over and over get just as boring as answering the same question? It's not like we are asking about a factory 350/5 speed setup.

lasher_350

Well said, devestator!

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

I feel the need to write this so I'm going to.

Typing the same response to a question over and over and over really does get annoying but then again, if you are browsing the forum and see something that you know, its a selfish smug son of a b*tch that will flame someone in a post for not using the search to figure out the answer and in the same post DOESN'T EVEN TOUCH on the subject at hand.

Speaking of the search feature, there is something else I want to write. The search engine the thirdgen website uses is complete ****. almost worthless. That said, the most powerful search engine on the planet earth is readily available for all those connected to the world wide web. Its called Google. searching the www.thirdgen.org site using google as a search engine is very easy and I cannot stress enough how overlooked this method is when searching for an answer.

To use Google to search a website,
1) go to www.google.com
2) type in site:[website you are searching goes here] (what you are searching for goes here)
Example site:www.thirdgen.org big 3

Using the above process yields 15,800 results for "big 3" on thirdgen.org. If you cant find the specific answer your looking for in all that, well then post it up and hope you get an answer. After all, no one is getting paid to answer your questions.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

one thing i learned in my communications class is theres an actual method to searching google to find results thatll best fit you, its wierd as hell but works. and yea the search engine aint great but if you type in big 3 mod thirdgen fbody on google half the results are from this site anyhow.

side not, i did the big three on my truck awhile back, best thing i ever did , easy as hell never noticed the crutchfield kit though.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

you need a special tool to crimp these, thats why crutchfield one come with them already done. its either hydraulic or shaped like a big bolt cutter, one of these has to be done for this crimp to last any length of time. the other thing you could do is solder the wire, but its pretty tough to do properly on wire that big.

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

I do agree that crimping them certainly isnt easy. I used a bench vise to do mine after cutting the wire to length. I just lined up the seam in the connector with the edge of the vice so I only crushed half of it, then flipped it over and did the other side. They are super tight, better than the factory crimps.

There is actually a fairly easy way to solder large wire like this. Use a torch to heat up the wire with connector in place holding it vertically (preferably in a vice), make a puddle of solder on top of the wire. Move your torch close to the bottom of the connector and the heat will draw the solder down into the wire. Do this one more time, then top it off with a nice even puddle on top and let it cool down. Got this tip from the Steve Meade forums. http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/boa...ge-gauge-wire/

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

i have the hydraulic one and i cant believe in the bench vise would be better, i think i would solder it if i had too. i was just suggesting it would likely be best to just leave the crimped ends from the factory on it.

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

Oh I didnt say the bench vise would be better in anyway... certainly not. I was just saying thats how I did it using what was available to me. Honestly, I crushed it down much further than the factory crimps, but yes I agree, soldering is the best way to go. The XS Power sales manager actually told me to "hammer crimp" them. I can only assume that meant to smash them flat with a big old hammer (I didnt even bother asking)... not recommended in the least bit!!

Leaving it at factory length would result in a LOT of extra wire under the hood. The kit provides 6' of blue positive wire, of which I used 2'. Then they give you 2 lengths of grey negative wire at 3' each. I used 1 piece of that cut to 1' and 1'. You could certainly use them uncut, but each of the ground wires would have an extra 2' to coil up and the positive wire would have an extra 4' to coil and hide. Naturally these measurements are all based on my older V belt setup with the alternator on the passengers side, closer to the battery. Other cars may vary.

lasher_350

Yeah, my battery is on the driver's side, so I will probably have to use most of the 6' to route it nicely from the passenger side alternator to it. The grounds will still be shorter, though. lol my car has the bastardized hybrid of serpentine belt for alternator only, and V's for all other accessories. 1987 Guinea-pig Turismo Americana

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

so how much cable does the crutchfield kit actually have cause i wanted to relocate the battery to the back.

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

Ok, without sounding like a jerk... The answer is 2 posts up from yours...

The kit provides 6' of blue positive wire, of which I used 2'. Then they give you 2 lengths of grey negative wire at 3' each.

There is nowhere near enough wire to relocate your battery to the trunk in this kit. Instead I would recommend making your own kit...
http://skyhighcaraudio.net/details#cid=292426
Just buy the wire by the foot along with the lugs. The reason I say that is you are going to need a run from the Alt + to the Battery + and run from either the the Battery + to the Starter or the Alt + to the Starter and a typical relocation kit wont have this starter cable included.

If you dont mind me asking, are you moving the battery for weight distribution for racing, or more just for looks?

The Project

iTrader: (6)

Re-read your first post. You only mentioned 1. alternator and 2. ground.

Guess you forgot the third.

Here.....BIG 4 video.

You're welcome.....good luck.

The Project

iTrader: (6)

Decent kit for the budget minded but NOT OFC cable.

Should do fine for most installs.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

For racing and looks as im gonna need some more room in the engine bay soon

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

That Big 4 video is a bit misleading... the chassis to motor block is completely unneeded. The traditional Big 3 is more than enough for our cars if you are running under 5,000 watts of power (which lets face it, most guys on this forum MIGHT have a 500watt amp tucked away somewhere, but typically not much more than that) Basically what most everyone wants to do is get rid of those annoying dimming situations, which since the charging system in these cars is sooo poor, even putting in some 4 gauge would probably solve the problem.

For $50, I dont think anyone who actually knows the difference between OFC and CCA would expect it to be OFC. It's also being debated right now in the car audio forums (not here but in the big time dedicated car audio forums, like Steve Meade Designs) if the Big 3 NEEDS to be OFC or is CCA more than enough to run the charging system up front. People are leaning towards CCA being fine for the short Big 3 runs while OFC should be most certainly be run to the rear for secondary batteries and amplifier power (unless you are on a tight budget and running lower wattage... which for them, lower wattage is under 3000 watts) but the battle rages on over CCA vs OFC in short runs.

The Project

iTrader: (6)

ebay....KNU Store

1/0 ga CCA (aka Ultra Flex) - $ 1.95 p/ft

1/0 ga OFC (aka Kolossus Flex) - $ 3.95 p/ft

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

whats ofc and cca?

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

The Project

iTrader: (6)

Different types of wire.

OFC = Oxygen Free Copper

CCA = Copper Clad Aluminum

OFC is better wire but CCA will do for most installs.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

they have an ofc kit too for about 90 bucks.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

aluminum has higher electrical resistance than copper but is way cheaper. thats why you see alot more aluminum in big wire, like in your house entry cabling. if they make it larger diameter its technically the same power capability as a smaller all copper cable.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

so basically its a deciever and a rip off

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

Not entirely. In the car audio world there are guys who run so much power that they max out the capacity of CCA easily. They even max out the capacity of OFC and need to run multiple lines to handle all the current. All JW was saying is that 1/0 CCA wire can flow the same as 2 gauge OFC, or 2 gauge CCA flows the same as 4 gauge OFC. If you compare the same gauge against each other, OFC always flows more current.

Like Project has said, CCA is more than enough for most installs of car audio and certainly more than enough for a big 3 upgrade, no need to spend extra money on OFC for a big 3 kit. CCA 1/0 gauge will never see it's maximum flow from any single alternator, even a big upgraded one. Biggest alternator I have seen is 300 amp output and CCA 1/0 can flow up to 350 amps (in shorter runs).

If you were running a sound system that was in the 5k+ range in terms of watts, then I would say most certainly get OFC to run from the front to back. Also in your case of moving the battery to trunk, it may be better for you to run with OFC over CCA just because of the length of the wires.

To sum it up, both OFC and CCA have their place.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

ok so a little off the thirdgen track if i may, ill be looking into ofc for the rear battery install when that happens but as far as my truck goes, its the designated party audio bus. nothing facy just 2 12's couple flood lights and fogs, my hedlight harness is directed straight to the battery, dual electric fans, and heated, power seats and a few other electrical upgrades. now i alreadyhave the big 3 or 4 one from battery to harness ground made out of 1/0 OFC as i looked yesterday works great but i never put the secondary battery in yet. Crutchfield lists a kit on their site but i cant seem to get a description of how it works, anyone have any ideas? i just want it there so i can turn up the music without the truck running at a party or bonfire and be able to start it again in the morning(it wont be on allnight)

also is mixing OFC and CCA bad? im thinking CCA could be usedfor the secondary battery cables because its not the prinary battery but it also couldnt hurt using OFC?

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

CCA should be OK for that as long as you arent running big amps for those 2 12" subs. Saying you have 2 12" subs is like saying you have a V8. You could have a stock 305 or an LS9. I have 2 12" subs and am only running 250 watts, but in the near future I will be upgrading to 1,200 watts while powering 2 12" subs.

The key to this whole thing is getting the right sized battery to supplement your system and to be sure to install a battery isolator. What this does is isolates the main battery from the secondary battery when it's not charging. Meaning if the truck isnt running, the main battery isnt connected to the audio system and wont drain down. You need a good deep cycle battery for this. I recommend either an Optima Yellow top or one of the many XS Power batteries. XS Power has charts to help you pick out the right battery.

I imagine this is the kit you are talking about... http://www.crutchfield.com/S-HfsWpR3...r-XP750CK.html But in addition to this kit you should get one of these... http://www.sonicelectronix.com/searc...ttery+isolator Not sure which one as I havent done that research yet, but that will get you on the right track.

I was eyeballing this kit for my car when I upgrade to the 1,200 watt amp later on. Solves my large run of wire to the rear and nets me more storage to keep my voltage up over longer periods.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

my amp is rated for 1500 but i never have it cranked that much or ill blow out another window which for a lifted 2 door yukon aint cheap because they get mad they have to use a larger ladder. dont know what my current battery is off hand, but its the biggest one i could get deep cycle wise, with the longest running life without the engine on, dont know if any of that helps.
i have the same battery already for the second thats being used in a freinds camaro atm so i think i should be good with matching batteries. all the isolator does is with the engine off itll only go as far as draining the primary battery and then as soon as the ignition is being turned itll draw power from the secondary to stat it and then turn off when its running to recharge the primary?

devestator_x

iTrader: (1)

Well... the isolator is pretty much just a big relay. What it is designed to do is take a small 12v input and flip a switch connecting a much larger circuit. Kind of like your remote turn on wire for your amp. When the remote wire is hot with 12v+ the amp turns on. When the isolator gets a hot signal, it flips its internal switch and connects the 2 terminals together.

Some guys run the turn on wire to a switch so they can manually connect and disconnect the secondary battery, but if you forget to turn on the circuit you will eventually drain the rear battery. My plan is to connect my amp directly to the secondary battery and have the isolator on the + wire in between the front battery and the rear battery with the remote wire going to the fuse box hot in run position. This way when the car is off, the rear battery is not connected to the main circuit and the amp runs off ONLY that rear battery. My front battery is saved for starting the car. When the car is running, the rear battery is reconnected to the main circuit and gets charged by the alternator. I may run my head unit power wire back to the rear battery as well to isolate both parts of the system to just the rear battery but Im not 100% I want that just yet.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

would that cause the alterantor to work overtime? so thatd have to be upgraded?

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

that is the proper way to isolate the battery, the alt has to be able to charge both as you are depleting the batteries so if you listen loud alot you are going to need to upgrade the alt, especially at idle, most off road trucks have that issue. you idle around most of the time, use electric fans, heat or a/c, lights, etc. and the factory alt puts puts out maybe 60 percent of its rating at idle. try researching upgrading to the new style alt series from mid 2000 trucks, or get aftermarket but you have to watch those too, alot of them even though they are rated 200 or whatever its not much more than stock at idle

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

theres a few upgrades for the tbi trucks, and i know a friend who knows a freind who re amps them or something too so i have a few options to look at.

jwfirebird

iTrader: (2)

i have read the new style from like the mid 2000 trucks and suvs put out a bunch more at idle and is a pretty easy swap, there is just a little bracket some people are making and bigger belt

abray1

They have been thinking of going to 24 volt or in the 50s or 60s with new cars since the electrical demands have gotten so big. I have been getting audio wire since the mid seventies, the fine stranded oxygen free stuff and putting the battery in the trunk and putting an electrical junction on the passenger fender. One of those that will hold #4 wire (many sizes) and lots of wires so that you can jump the car from both ends. You can also add any kind of electronic gizmo at any place. We always took #4 wire and ran from the alt to the drivers side firewall and back to the passenger junction block. I have power on both sides of the car as well as the trunk. I usually get a 140 or bigger alternator built by my alternator guy with quality parts then you are done except for a good starter like one from a 88-91 corvette or good gear reduction starter. You need a good fluke meter also and to ground both sides of the engine and rad support.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

thats what ive read too, theres a few different ones i could potentially swap in.