Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

So I fell into a 1998 vortec 350 from a 1500 with 70k miles on it. To put the tbi on it I am going to go with the carb intake adapter.

I will have Moates install the flash chip adapter so I can tune it (I am a complete tuning virgin). Anyone have this done, what was the turn around time? Does the zif mount into the adapter if I want one or does it replace the adapter? Can I put my 305 tune back in the ECM until the motor is swapped?

I plan to pull some injectors out of something at the junkyard, what would be a common vehicle that would have compatible injectors for my throttle body? Get the knock sensor from the same vehicle?

The Camaro is not my daily driver so I don't have to finish it in a weekend. It will have to be parked while the ECM is at Moates.

Thanks!

ETA: Check out RS-Chevy-SS's swap thread here:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...-progress.html

RFmaster

We all had to loose, hmm - 'tuning virginity' in our past.

1) ZIF (zero insertion force) socket is mounted into Moates adapter. In the photo below blue socket is mounted in the PCM - used in late TBI and TPI applications. Your Moates adapter will be specific to 1227746 type ECM adapter board - make sure to order correct one


2) Do not know what the turn around time on chips - burned my own chips using GQ-4X EPROM burner (light version). You can put any tune into EPROM chip - it does not care. Other burners are available.
http://www.mcumall.com/

3) You'll need 61 lb-hr truck injectors and it is a good idea to bump fuel pressure to about 16 to 18 PSI range. 350 Vortec engines were rated for 250 to 270 HP range. To increase FP you'll need stiff FPR spring and in tank FP capable of delivering 25 PSI or more. You can get FPR spring from TBI parts (aka dctrumpet)

4) You'll need to source KS specific for 350 roller engine (Look at 1990 to 92 B-body)

5) Make sure to get vortec specific intake and throttle, TV cable bracket. Everything else should drop in.

//RF

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Awesome information, thank you. I will be burning my own chips, I am looking at the burner from moates:

http://www.moates.net/burn2-chip-pro....html?cPath=94

I think this is the correct adapter:

http://www.moates.net/g2-memory-adap....html?cPath=64

Do I need the blue lower height zif or will the sturdier black one work?

Thanks again for the information.

RFmaster

1) Burn 2 will work fine for burning your own EEPROMs
2) Either of the two ZIF socket will result in the EEPROM protruding outside ECM case envelope unless OE EPROM (black) socket is removed and G2 adapter board is soldered into the ECM daughter board. Unless you have proper soldering, PCB rework equipment and skills it is ill advised for a first timer. I have never used Moates ZIF sockets so I can not comment on their sturdiness.

//RF

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Well I placed my order with Moates, I ordered the adapter, zif socket, burn 2, 2 chips and their installation service. Now I have to pull my ECM and mail it to them.

RFmaster

For a first timer I would recommend to get a spare ECM. Leave original ECM untouched in its original condition as an emergency back-up. I get my ECM's at local JY's during their 50% sale days. It is a good idea to scout the yard a day before, find donor vehicle with correct ECM and stash it away. Then on the day of the sale get it before hoards pick everything clean. You need to research ECM service numbers which a compatible with your Camaro. Alternatively, there is always Ebay and other sources.

//RF

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Not a bad idea. This car is a toy and isn't even my secondary driver so I can afford some down time on it. If I need a spare ECM I'll run to the yard and grab me one. I will read my original prom and burn it into a chip to get the 305 back up until I have the time to swap the motors.

jokerZ71

You will also need to use a t-stat bypass,or,some simply drill holes in the T-stat.Either way works.If plumbing the bypass,you'll need a W/P w/ bypass port.The crank sprocket on the Vortec is thinner,so,you will need to swap timing sets if using an old style timing cover,or,you can leave the reluctor wheel installed.If you have to pass emissions,you will need to get creative with an EGR setup as well.If not,simply tune it out.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

No need for a bypass, the factory heater diverter is a bypass.

The timing set is also no thinner. The balancer is shorter to compensate for the reluctor.

Not sure where you come up with as much bad information as you do!

RS-Chevy-SS

In my build all we did was swap the timing cover with the stock cover for that engine without the crank sensor provision. T-Stat bypass routed through the waterpump to boss on the intake.

jokerZ71

IDK.Maybe the same place you come up with the HP ratings you come up with on those magical motors you build.

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

I have been reading your swap with great interest. I can't wait for you to get it up and running.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Oh you mean the dyno....research these engines or atleast take a few apart so you can see the differences for yourself!!!

FWIW.....My old Dodge Ram with stock heads put down 385 rwhp/379 rwtq and ran deep into the 13s despite being 5,330 lbs amd being on 20" street tires. My old G-van weighing in the 5,600 lbs range went 14.1 @ 99 with an 8.9:1 350, stock stalled 700r4 and 3.08s. Definately never felt the dyno lied at 360ish rwhp. Also never felt it lied on my 2012 Titan even when it read 360hp/430 tq to the tires. At 5,340 ls it went 13.98 @ 96.20 on a 1.99s 60'and on a different day, different track 14.01 @ 98.60 on a craptastic 2.09s 60'. Heavy 20" street tires and an open diff.

Ram on its way to 13.50s passes on street tires.

Titan on its way to 14.20s in not so great weather.

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

ECM is mailed off, it should be there Wednesday. I hope to see it back by next week at least.

On a side note, it's cool and great to disagree but perhaps just say as such instead of the one up manship and personal attacks. I appreciate both of your inputs.

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Moates has already shipped my ECM back. They got it Wednesday and sent it out Thursday, I will have it Monday. Awesome turn around.

I have also ordered a TPI fuel pump that I will have tomorrow.

To start off I am going to put the 305 um I think it is called a bin on a new chip and get it back going. I need to order an intake (exploring my options here) and adapter then decide if I want to kit and or rebuild my transmission while it is out. I still need to go get some fuel injectors also and do something about a regulator. I am considering adding one after the throttle body for easier tuning.

RS-Chevy-SS

I think it is awesome that we are both doing essentially the same swap at the same time. I'm curious to see if my new L30 can hang with you 70k L31. New ratings show only a difference of 20 HP.

Go with the 71pph injectors. They can be easily ordered from rock auto if you prefer them to be new. I really like the GMPP TBI Vortec manifold. Everything lines up right so far and nice having the bowtie all over it. Hood clearance was another factor in choosing that intake. TBI chips sells a 18 psi spring to go with the injectors to use as a base fuel point. Would love to have done the tranny on mine as well (150k stocker) however motor cost and supporting parts have drained a lot of my funds so fron seal only for now and ill baby it until the time is right.

Let me know if I can be of any help!

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

I've been wondering about that. So this intake, with adapter, and TBI, clears the stock hood?

Any idea if there's still room for a stock air cleaner?

RS-Chevy-SS

The intake doesn't require an adapter. The TB bolts right onto it. Haven't gotten it actually in car yet. But looks like its the same height

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

The same height as the stock intake? That would be sweet for hood clearance.

But it has revised runners, larger runners, or some characteristics that help the engine breathe better than with the stock intake?

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12496821/

That is the intake, it is pricy for an intake manifold. Roughly three times the price of a non vortec.

Hey RS-Chevy-SS, check out this thread for USB data logging:

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...USB-ALDL-Cable

I already have the USB board and I plan to install it in my ashtray and splice it into my ALDL so all I have to do to data log is flip up my door and use a usb cable to my tablet.

I am going for a stock appearing motor so any intake I end up with is going to be painted black. I can't wait to see your swap, you are miles ahead of me so far. My father-in-law has my engine hoist and stand, as soon as he's done with his vette I'll go pick them up. Before I make the car undriveable though I am going to have everything ready to drop right back in. Cleaned, painted, replaced what needs, etc.

RS-Chevy-SS

Very nice bro. I got my intake for I think 350. Summit price matched pace IIRC. Started the swap today on my own. Head over to my thread for pics. Interested to see what intake combo you use and the hood clearance.

What exhaust do you plan on running. One thing is for sure, the price of thus build continues to grow.

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

I plan to keep exhaust manifolds for the stock look.

I just ordered new injectors from rock auto. Brand new AC Delcos for 40 a piece! They were just put on clearance.

I am going to check out your thread now, I want to see your pics. ��

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

That is going to kill your hp gains. At the very minimum you should find some G92 TPI manifolds and the dual cat Y-pipe. Even then the ZZ4 conversion lost nearly 50 hp with the G92 factory logs. Down to 308 hp from 355.

RS-Chevy-SS

Not only that but in my research, the stock LO3 manifolds wont fit the L31/L30. Im also not sure if the stock L30/1 manifolds will mate to the LO3 Y Pipe.

Get some headers on it space or my little 305 will run circles around the 350 haha.

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Hmm, I didn't realize that about the vortec heads. I went and checked the extra pair of manifolds I have and sure enough they need the outboard hole. I really don't want the hassle of header leaks, I may see about drilling and tapping the missing hole.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Thanks for the link, Spaceboy1980.

They are pretty proud of that thing, aren't they!

I'm enjoying following these builds very much.

RS-Chevy-SS

Curiosity which injectors did you order? Wasn't the stock 55pph right?

jokerZ71

If you have to pass emmisions testing,you will need a header or manifold that has a bung for EGR plumbing.If you go with headers,just be sure to get a decent set w/ 3/8" flanges.The cheaper sets w/ thinner flanges will warp & spit the gaskets out constantly.

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

No emissions here, and I ordered the 61 lb-hr injectors. I will have to research the exhaust issue thoroughly before I decide what to do. I really want a stock look and I also hate how hard it is to change plugs with headers. ><

RS-Chevy-SS

I think the stock manifolds will bolt up other than that bolt but I'm not sure. At any rate you will most likely need something different. Perfect time to get headers. I hear they are good for a solid 20 HP, or at least on LO3 motors.

jokerZ71

Most of your HP gains from headers will be in the upper RPM range.They do however help with lower rpm torque & gas milage.

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

I received an awesome package from Moates.net today. Everything was very well packed, bubble wrap, anti-static bags, chip pins in foam, etc. My ECM has a new socket installed and came with a burner, my original prom, a zif socket and two new eproms.

Following the instructions on moates.net, I had read my original prom and burned it to a new eprom and installed it into my ECM. I went out to my car and plugged the ECM back in, turned the key and it roared to life.

I am feeling more confident in this swap now.

RFmaster

One step at a time - congratulations.

You have been following LO3 to L30 swap.
The physical part of this swap is extensive and even with planning things to did not go as well as I hoped.
Invest in tools:
Need both metric and SAE sockets 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 drive, wrenches
Flexible head gear wrenches (9/16 or 14mm for bell housing bolts)
wobble extension bars - various lengths are needed to get to the back bolts
PS puller - installer set HFT# 40749 works ok as puller

plenty of time and place to do this swap.

//RF

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

I have a garage and air tools, I anticipate the physical part of the swap to be the easy part, lol.

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

My fuel pump sock and injectors came in today. I don't know how to tell if these are correct or not but they were ordered for a 93 5.7 TBI 1500.

RS-Chevy-SS

Fuel pump sock? Injectors should be fine if not you will know as soon as you go WOT

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Some people call the strainer a sock, it's just a lexicon.

RS-Chevy-SS

What FP are you running again?

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Whatever the math works out to. I have a TPI pump to install when I get it together, I need to decide what to do for a fpr.

RS-Chevy-SS

Definitely need the TPI pump. Well for reference, mine requires 76pph at 19ish psi on 61# injectors. Figure yours will need about 23ish psi?

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

A little info on my motor. My friend got it from a shop that had replaced the motor for an intake issue. If you know anything about the poppet system on the vortecs, then you know they get to dribbling and give a rough idle. Well he bought it for the core charge. In the mean time he bent a rod in his truck and robbed a piston (out the bottom no less) and the crank from the motor to repair his.

I have sourced a matching replacement piston, rod, ring combo and a .010 under crank with bearings. The piston actually went back in easily from the bottom, the chamfer at the bottom of the cylinder tapered the rings in awesomely so I did not have to pull the head, just a light tap with a ball peen handle on the rod cap.

I have the new crank in and torqued down as well as a new rear main seal installed. I am switching to a standard timing cover and chain and my new chain will be in tomorrow. I want to source another timing cover so I do not have to use the one from my 305 and have the motor more ready to drop in. I for sure do not want a chrome cover, it would look tacky on this motor.

The low mileage is very evident by how clean the inside is and how fresh the cross hatch is in the cylinders. The cylinder that had the missing piston has no ridge forming what so ever. I turned my torque wrench as low as it would go (20ft-lb) and the crank turns before it will click, it turns easily.

Here is a pic of where I am:

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Looks nice!

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

I am thinking of doing a cam swap to the lt4 cam before I button it all up. Would that be a good cam for this motor and can the tbi support it? What about tuning, would I be able to tune it for that cam also?

RS-Chevy-SS

Throw a nasty cam in there and have a loping idle. Haha

In all seriousness IIRC, fast 355 recommended the LT4 cam.

RFmaster

I think you need to do some reading and work with a calculator:

GM 12480002 LT4 cam is spec'd at:
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 218 int./228 exh.
LSA: 112deg
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.525 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.525 in.

Stock Vortec heads will not take more than 0.450 valve lift. The heads will have to be removed and modified to handle higher lift. Just a point of reference: Scoggin-Dickey Vortec heads, modified SD8060A $860/pair
https://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-...nter/sd8060ra2

Once the heads come off - you'll be walking down the 'expensive' road. Unless you have the budget, performance cam swap should not be considered lightly.

Another option is to find early LT1 cam which still requires valve train modifications (springs, keepers, minor head work), but at slightly lower price point:
GM OE: 12551705
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 205/207 in/ex deg
Valve lift with 1.5:1 rocker ratio (intake/exhaust): 0.447/0.459"
LSA: 117deg



From LS1tech
=========================================================
List of cam specs, but no GM part numbers. Unverifiable information
1992 Y-body: 205/207 0.451/0.450 lift 117 LSA
1993-1995 Y-body, F-body: 202/207 0.450/0.460 lift 116 LSA
1994-1996 B-bodies (including L99 4.3L): 191/196 0.418/0.430 lift 111 LSA
1996 Y-body, 1996-1997 F-body: 200/207 0.447/0.459 lift 117 LSA
1996 Y-body, F-body LT4: 203/210 0.476/0.479 lift 115 LSA
=========================================================

//RF

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The cam 12551142 I recomeended years ago was not the Hotcam. It was the GM production cam that has sense been discontinued that runs lifts of only .446/.449, (.476/.479" with a 1.6:1 rocker). I have never seen a vortec head have clearance issues under .480", FWIW.

I have put both the LT1 and LT4 cam in a production GM L31 crate engine and had zero issue with the stock springs/retainers/seals.

I also have run the 395' marine cam in a stock vortec 350 although its not much larger than the stock cam.

I would step up to Etec170 heads before I put any real money in a set of vortec castings. $1380.00 a pair and springs good for .575" lift.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/...rentProductId=

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Thanks RF, I did indeed read up on all of that. The lift problem can be remedied with springs, retainers and keepers to be safe to .550 lift.

But it doesn't matter as the lt4 cam is no longer available. I am now thinking about getting a GM 383 cam. It is a tamer cam (not that the lt4 was wild), and should be more tbi friendly.

Thanks for your advice.

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

I think Fast355 has nailed it on these heads, I went out and measured mine. They are virgin 062 castings of 1998 vintage:



Now how much lift will the springs handle before coil bind?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

While they may have a spring/retainer change the Ramjet crate engines run lifts of .460/.481 on vortec heads.

I also cannot begin to tell you how many sucess stories I hear of 1.6:1 rocker as on GMT400 chassis trucks. .442/.457 lift

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

I think I have decided what to do. I am going to go with the Alex vortec spring kit and the lt4 hot cam. The L31 hot cam combo seems popular and proven to make power. I have a spare throttle body and one of the machinists at work agreed to bore it out to 48 mm for me also.

Any reason not to go this route?