Slowridr

iTrader: (1)

Ok I'm wanting to know what was the first thing to break and how far did you go replacing stock parts. What upgrades did you get away with while staying in stock class autox.

GrumpyBadger

I'm pretty interested in this myself. I haven't even bought my TA yet, but I want it 3rd gen and I look forward to Autoxing it. The classes right now, looking at the ruleset make it pretty tough to be a competitor though. The new Camaros and Mustangs are in our class, sure they're heavier, but they've got plenty we don't have... HP for one

Slowridr

iTrader: (1)

In the SCCA SOLO racing could a good driver make up the gap that the higher HP/tq numbers of the new camaros and mustangs bring to the table. Speeds really don't get over 40mph or so right?

SCCA RALLY style racing would be a different story because cars can get up to higher speeds and tech is just better on these newer cars. That's where just having fun takes over for me.

With drivers being equally good Im not sure of an argument that our cars could beat the new stuff.

Any thoughts?

GrumpyBadger

I gotta agree on your points. I mean in autocross, having too much torque and not enough grip could really hinder a driver more than help. lol I'm a member of the AZ group of autocrossers now, and I'm looking forward to what they have to say too. I'm really wanting a 5.0/5spd... my buddy has a 1LE Camaro and man that thing is a blast!

we'll see. As soon as I get my TA I'll be able to give more input. Pretty much as soon as I find one, that next event, I'll be there.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Anything that came stock on tehse cars, you can use. So that's springs, sway bars, etc.

The best class to aim for if you do ANY modifications whatsoever, is ESP. ESP requires a completely stock engine. No aftermarket cams or heads. Not sure about headers. But a lot of F-body guys race in ESP.

The reason for that is as soon as you do subframe connectors, you're in ESP. So you may as well build your car to taht class. ESP does allow 3 attachment points per sfc. and it does NOT allow (based on how I read the rules) inner SFC's like the MACs or Alstons. I dont think the'yre as effective anyway.

As soon as you do any serious engine upgrades. Corvette heads, AFR's, cam upgrade, you're in street modified which is pretty much an anything goes as long as your engine is in the stock location and you have full interior class. The time penalties in SM are pretty ridiculous so you wont be competitive even if you are on raw times. But that's okay with me it's so much fun anyway. I pay more attention to how I compare on raw times to everyone more than about actually winning. I want a car that can handle as well as any other car on the road (within reasonable limits, obviously). All the local guys think "muscle cars" don't handle. All of us here know otheriwse, but there arent any other muscle car guys in my local group so they dont see it.

Im relatively new to this and the rules are a bit hard to find and decipher, so if Im wrong about ANY of this, someone PLEASE correct me, but htis is my understanding of how obvious thirdgen mods are handled:

Stock class (our cars in Stock class are F class, so F-stock) allows:
T5 swaps
1LE brake swaps
any factory gear ratio
any factory sway bar/spring combination
Aftermarket struts
catback exhaust systems
All factory Emissions equipment
Spacers to adapt wheels to factory location

Street Prepared (Our cars in SP are in E-class, so ESP) allows:
SFC's
removing air conditioner
Spacers
Any size wheel
headers
Aftermarket strut mounts
Exhaust modifications
lowering springs
anything in stock class

Street Modified (OUr cars Im pretty sure is just SM):
Any engine mods
non-stock brake upgrades
Full interior required

Some of the other details, Im not really sure about. Hard to find, and a lot of this stuff changes every year, so you never know how accurate the information is. Also the rulebook allegedly has all this listed, but I can never find it so I have to scour the interwebs to figure it all out. For example, the rules regarding SFC's have changed a bit over the years.

And my personal opinion, and this depends a lot on how big your venue is and individual courses, but my personal opinion is that power doesn't help much at the AutoX. The fastest times are set by Miatas and Lotus Elises and last week we had an 89 Civic Hatch nearly beat an Elise for the best raw time. It's not about power. Power to weight ratio matters, but I dont think a 4000 lb Camaro with 400hp is going to be much faster than a 3300 lb Camaro with 300hp. ESPECIALLY when you consider how much LARGER those cars are. Our cars are big and bulky enough to get through the cones. Those 4x4 land yachts MUST be a bear to get through this stuff.

paul_huryk

Very good information you posted. Is there a minimum treadwear # for any of the classes you mentioned?

So if for instance a 3rd gen with a set of CTW Motorsports wheels, a set of Konis, and a 13" Brake kit would be an ESP car?

Slowridr

iTrader: (1)

Makes sense, thanks for putting that info in your post InternalVortex

To me then it almost makes sense on our 20+ year old cars to figure subframe connectors, strut tower brace, brakes/brake lines (etc), and a newer set of wheels, and just making sure suspension is in good working order (bushings and the like). So it looks like this would put anyone doing that in ESP. That would be starters for me just to feel confident driving my car hard thru the cones.
Here is a 91 T/A running thru the cones. It looks pretty much stock, even has original wheels look like.



This makes sense too. Getting that suspension up tight seems like the way to go. I will eventually do some mountain climbs so that's where more hp/tq may help but I see a lot of Miatas and old stock stuff here too. This particular Hill Climb is right up the road from me.

GrumpyBadger

I saw in the rulebook a "140+ tirewear" for pretty much any of the classes but unlimited.
here's some stuff I found for "not so stock" cars:
http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/index.shtml
considering the .pdf won't load from SCCA, it's the best I've got.
http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/sp.html

what concerns me about that class -
2012 BOSS Laguna SECA, 2014 Z28... for starters
I've driven the Laguna, and she's sweet. I think the Z28 may have too much power, especially for someone new or not used to it, but that Laguna is really nice... as much as I hate to admit it being an F-body fan lol

the "stock" class doesn't include those beasties. But it does include 4th and 5th generations in general. But like InfernalVortex said, they're still heavy.

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

I ran this year with my basically stock 91 RS. I had WS6 sway bars with poly bushings/endlink, lakewood shocks/struts, an air intake and muffler also. I ran stock class this year and ended up racing newer mustangs and bmw's, and while i didn't win a race, I did hang with the others and was very happy with my times compared to theirs. Nothing broke but it wore what was left of my brake pads out. These cars are good enough stock that it's going to depend more on your driving skills than the cars capabilites.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Im pretty sure a brake upgrade puts you into Street Modified unless it was a factory brake option. This is where it may pay to go for the 1LE swap. I went with the LS1 swap because it was cheaper and replacement parts for it are super easy to get anywhere. But the LS1 swap is Street Modified, 1LE swap is still F-stock. I doubt there's much, if any real performance difference between LS1 brakes and 1LE brakes, so ideally you'd have Konis, IROC springs, CTW wheels, and 1LE brakes in ESP.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

This is, to me, THE problem. I dont want to put my chassis through these kinds of loads unless its properly reinforced. SFC's are a must to preserve the structural integrity of a 20 year old unibody chassis in my opinion. I have the window crack above the corner of the rear windows from the car twisting at the roofline because it creates a stress riser there. And my car was a factory 305 TBI automatic car. It's not like it had a big block in it at some point. SFC's are the only real way to prevent that from getting worse.

Strut Tower braces are allowed only in SM I think... but Im not positive on that. I think even in SM you're only allowed two attachment points. So the 3/4 point style TBI ones are off limits.

Also, that firebird you posted looks incredible. My car is nowhere near that fast... I wish I knew some more details about it.

Slowridr

iTrader: (1)

I asked the guy that ran that on YouTube and he responded:

For 2013 I ran in the ESP class. Mods to the car at the time of this video were limited to Panhard Rod, Subframe connectors, High flow air filter, and a lot of refreshed stock parts. I ran 245 width gforce sport comp2 tires. By the end of the year the car had much more.

GrumpyBadger

I sure wish I could see those videos yesterday! SWEET!

for me, like Infernal, I'm "doomed" as they say to ESP or even modified. Fact is, I don't want to hurt the car or put any more risk to it or me, than I can. FACT. I think it's complete and utter BS that SCCA has those rules about SFC. Of course, I also have an excuse, once you've seen someone biff it at 100+ with no SFC, you don't forget it.

and I'm not saying we're ever going those speeds in AutoX, but hillclimbs, track days, etc yep. So for me, the car is a compromise of all the above. Not a perfect for one. Plus, the speeds may be low, but man AutoX can tear apart certain components of a car, more than road-racing and running the corkscrew at Laguna can!

only best news is that it does seem, regardless of type of car, and regardless of whatever a video game may say about a "class," NagleMac definitely made me feel better. Newer 3class, and 302s are what scare me, so if he played, then so can we. I've driven both and not just on a freeway... those two cars are mean, and it wouldn't surprise me, if for the average car enthusiast, that LS7 Z28 is a little bit too much. It always seems the high-rev 400hp cars are right where it needs to be for a good driver, and good road runner!

parts man

You can Auto x with your third gen and its a blast! I have won three regional championships with my hight mileage GTA and although not easy it can be done.

parts man

Also failed to mention that this coming year I think if I read this correctly that the SCCA is making official new but not to my region a street tire class, where you can run against other stack classes but have to have street tires. I wasn't able to run much this season but I think the tread wear numbers are 200 min.
I now run in the ESP class with almost all the legal modifications I can have and do get out driven but its so much fun beating mustangs and even the mighty LS cars. Plus the National champ drives a GTA!!

Slowridr

iTrader: (1)

Let's have some pics and mods please. Also that GTA that has won 6 out of the last 8 national solo titles in ESP is sweet.

GCrites80s

Don't forget about C Prepared, folks. CP's index is slightly slower than SM and allows engine changes such as cams. It also allows you to strip the interior and make a lot of suspension and brake changes.

parts man

Not sure if this works but here may be one.

DesertFox

Life in C-prepared sucks if you want to keep creature comforts.
You have a lot of freedom to do what you want car wise, but you're then pretty much stuck with a dedicated autocross car if you want to be competitive. IE stripped interior, no emissions equip, etc.


When I went to Nats in 2012 my car was on of the few that was street legal in CP. it was like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Do you by any chance know what the rule in CP is regarding torque arms mounted to a crossmebmer that attaches to the SFC's? Like the BMR track pack?

Very true... HOWEVER... I read this on another forum the other day:

I asked about this on frrax, and verified it...

So really, you're better off, at least in 2014, to just run CP instead of SM.

Slowridr

iTrader: (1)

Hey InternalVortex you are right down the road from me. That ffrax forum is pretty cool. Hadn't had a chance to read it all yet, I will on my break. But the 3rd gen at LeMans is pretty incredible. I found this article link on ffrax

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/...hocked-le-mans

I know it is not autox but its racing and impressive.

Homer23

I have done Auto-x competitions for 2 seasons and for the most part, don't worry about breaking any components. It shouldn't be too much of a problem. If you don't want to keep your car stock, go to STX or STU depending on your engine size; The ST classes can be called the bolt-on class.

If you haven't competed yet, concentrate on increasing your driving abilities and have fun.

I haven't competed with my 91 RS yet but it only has a few suspension components and I'm already not in the stock class.

Slowridr

iTrader: (1)

Homer I was reading on the SCCA site about the High Performance Driving Events (PDX, PDE, or HDPE). I noticed these lead to some of the things I really want to get into which are Hill Climbs and Time Trials. I could not find anything saying how your car needs to be set up for the PDX. Where do I find that?

Ok, I think I found it. It looks like PDX and Club Trials (in that order) you can just show up with your car and not worry about being placed in any particular class, because you are there to just learn and get use to your car at higher speeds. Then you go to Track Trials and Hill Climbs and in these two forms of racing they divide the cars up depending on what MODs they have just like SOLO and ROAD RACE divisions. In the end I think that even though you get put into different classes by MODs you really just race the clock.

Slowridr

iTrader: (1)

I've been looking at this PDX and the more I read up on it the more I like it. Any of you guys done this?

Here is something from SCCA regarding the PDX series of events in Atlanta.

PDX events are non-competition based – in fact stopwatches are not allowed. Why? Because the focus is on you – it’s important that the skills taught at a PDX are learned beforehand so you can enjoy the latter levels of the program. The PDX is the starting rung of a ladder system – the three other levels of the Time Trials program provide competition – Club Trials, Track Trials and Hill Climbs.

I may need to start another thread on this question since the title of this is Autox.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Interesting... my only concern for something like that is safety and long term durability of my car. I like to think Im an awesome driver, but Im not. I know too many guys who have sent Miatas down into ravines at the tail of the dragon, for example. Plus I like how in Autocross you dont spend massive amounts of time wide open throttle banging off the shift light. If youdo something like that it makes it a lot more important to get an oil accumulator and/or road race pan and so forth.

Homer23

Yeah, you are kind of trying to hijack this thread.

I actually need to attend a PDX because at the very least, I want to do auto-x, Club Trials, Track Trials, and Hill Climbs every season.

L98KR1989

To harp on the ESP class for the thirdgens.

Ive been running with my 1985 trans am 305 5 speed in ESP for about two years all suspension is original or OEM replaced many years before i got the car. i currently exchange wins with a nearly fully prepped 2013 5.0 mustang by .2-.5 seconds and i constantly beat a 2014 mustang leguna seca the car is competitive. Mark M has proven that by taking the national championship 5 time with his 87.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Just out of curiosity...what have you done to the car, modification wise? Just curious what puts you into ESP.

parts man

Keep your third gen street legal and do basically any mods you want and run the new CAM class.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Very timely that this came back up. I dabbled at autocrossing back in college, and shortly thereafter. Not that I have a highly capable car, I wouldn't mind making an occasional run. And would most certainly like to stay in the stock class to start.

But as many have stated, with a t-top unibody car, I consider sub-frame connectors to be essential, even for street use. And I consider the strut tower brace to be a close second as an essential.

InternalVortex said (last year), The best class to aim for if you do ANY modifications whatsoever, is ESP. ESP requires a completely stock engine. No aftermarket cams or heads. Not sure about headers. But a lot of F-body guys race in ESP. The reason for that is as soon as you do subframe connectors, you're in ESP.

And...

This is, to me, THE problem. I dont want to put my chassis through these kinds of loads unless its properly reinforced. SFC's are a must to preserve the structural integrity of a 20 year old unibody chassis in my opinion. I have the window crack above the corner of the rear windows from the car twisting at the roofline because it creates a stress riser there. And my car was a factory 305 TBI automatic car. It's not like it had a big block in it at some point. SFC's are the only real way to prevent that from getting worse.

I just downloaded the SCCA 2014 Solo Rule Book 7, and was reading through it. Looks like stock class is OUT with sub-frame connectors.

However, stepping "up" one step to Street Touring:

14. STREET TOURING® CATEGORY

G. Strut bars per Section 12.18 are permitted with all types of suspension, subject to the following constraints:
1. A 2-point strut bar may be added, removed, modified, or substituted, but only with another 2-point strut bar.
2. A triangulated (3-point) strut bar may be removed, modified, or substituted; substitution may be with either a triangulated or a 2-point strut bar. The connection to the chassis (e.g., firewall, bulkhead) must be in the standard location.
3. Lower suspension braces must be attached to the lower suspension pickup point locations on the chassis within 2” (50.8mm) in any direction of the actual suspension attachment to the chassis.
4. Except for standard parts, no connections to other components are permitted.
Additional holes may be drilled for mounting bolts. Only “bolt-on” attachment is permitted. Interior trim panels may be modified to allow installation of strut bars. Holes or slots may be no larger than necessary and may serve no other purpose. This does not permit any modifications to the frame or unibody beyond the allowed mounting holes.

H. Longitudinal (fore-aft) subframe connectors (“SFCs”) are permitted with the following restrictions:
1. They must only connect previously unconnected boxed frame rails on unibody vehicles.
2. Each SFC must attach at no more than 3 points on the unibody (e.g., front, rear, and one point in between such as a seat mount brace or rocker box brace).
3. SFCs must be bolted in place and not welded.
4. No cutting of OE subframes or floorpan stampings is permitted. Drilling is permitted for mounting bolts only.
5. No cross-car/lateral/triangulated connections directly between the driver’s side and passenger’s side SFCs are permitted. Connections to OE components such as tunnel braces or closure panels via bolts are allowed and count as the third point of attachment. No alteration to the OE components is permitted.
6. SFCs may not be used to attach other components (including but not limited to torque arm front mounts or driveshaft loops) and may serve no other purpose.

So, as I'm reading this, this class would ALLOW a (bolt-in) sub-frame connector like an Alston / TDS. That's good news, in my opinion, as that's the design I preferred. I know people love to compain about bolt-ins Vs. weld-ins, but they are allowed, within the limits of 14H above.

However, it would still exclude the QA1 / Edelbrock 3 point style strut tower brace for a TBI car like mine, which is unfortunate.

parts_man said, "Keep your third gen street legal and do basically any mods you want and run the new CAM class."

What is the CAM class?

Lastly, I had no problem downloading this rule book .pdf. If anyone else is having problems with it, and would like to email you a copy, feel free to drop me a PM with your email address, and I'll send it to you.

B4CHawk

CAM class is regional; I.E. the regions decide what "CAM" is. I tried this in San Diego and they decided to make the cutoff 1978. ESP is the ticket for these cars.

L98KR1989

only thing done to my car is a 3a racing seat driver side only (keeps the passenger videos interesting), Hedman headers, y pipe, a Borla XR1 where the cat used to be and 2.5" pipe exiting before the rear wheel. sitting on CTW black rims and new Hankook v214's 275/40 EBC slotted and dimpled rotors and hawks HP+ pads steel braided lines up front The car has been carborated with a 650 Edle.

slow305

iTrader: (2)

If you downloaded the rulebook, information on CAM is on page 254.

Link to Solo rulebook.

Pat

Homer23

I'm a little surprised since the rulebook says it's an open American make class. I guess they don't need or want hotshoe C6 drivers dominating the traditional muscle car guys.

B4CHawk

I would have had a better chance in CAM; instead of being 6 seconds slower than the CP mustang I would have just been 3.44 seconds behind Mary Pozzi.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Thanks Pat. I haven't gotten that far yet! It's not exactly an entertaining read.

parts man

My region is using the ESP pax and I can do any mods to my car. So if you want to build your car with lots of mods engine, suspension too the CAM class sounds fun. The thing I like about it is that tire tread wear has to be at least 200, where as f stock is down to 140 for street tire. If you have shopped for tires in 16 s you know there aren't many sticky street tires out there.

gbeaird

iTrader: (1)

We ran our '92 B4C Camaro in FS for many years. And it was autocrossed a lot by it's previous owner, and I think the guy who had it before him took it to a few Nationals. It even trophied at least once at Nationals.

The only thing we 'broke' were creating stress marks at the upper rear corner of the window openings where the roof meets the sail panels. Otherwise, just do normal maintenance and enjoy. The car does have Koni Yellows on it, but the rest is B4C 1LE stock stuff.

With about 150K miles on the clock, if we were to bring it out of retirement, I'd probably R&R the suspension bushings, probably throwing some Del-A-Lumes under the car, and add SFCs to stop the body flex to help prolong body life and just run ESP, or probably just have fun in CP, since that's where we run now with our Firebird. But if I were intent on keeping it in FS, I'd just throw some fresh 1LE bushings in it and go have fun!