MedVader

OK after jacking around with car's nearly useless ALDL trying to log and tune, I've decided to just go all the way and get a serious EFI system. After reading about the various types on here and many other sites, I've got it narrowed down to 3.

EBL-P4 - $520 complete with '7730 + $150 PLX wideband O2 = $670
Holley Dominator ECU - $1550 + $180 for (2) Bosch wideband O2 sensors + $110 connector pack = $1840
MS3-Pro ECU - $960 + $300 for (2) PLX wideband O2 + $60 connector pack = $1320

Now let me say, I don't like to tune. I like building engines. I've paid one fella $80 for 3 retunes (LT1PCM) but since I can't log reliably and the car runs so bad that I can't even get it out on the road to make a decent run even if I could log it's pretty much going nowhere. I can buy another '7730 for $80 off ebay just to get the ALDL running right, but I'm not going to. I'm done with the 80's tech. I'm just going to spend a little dough and get this right.

So I have a list of "must have" and a list of "very cool to have" as follows

Must haves are
1) Run the stock dash correctly - speedo, tach, and all 4 gauges
2) self tune VE tables - to get me at least 80% of the way there.
3) a halfway decent harness to work with - GM connectors
4) properly read GM knock sensor - meaning does it have MEMCAL 350SBC knock filter equivalent?
5) no ALDL logging. I want modern USB link between laptop and ECU

Very Cool to have
1) Closed loop wideband O2 running mode
2) *Even better* Closed loop with DUAL wideband O2 sensors. One on each header collector.
2) SFI with crank trigger
3) COP ignition

So I threw out FAST EZ-EFI after reading several different guys complain the autotune doesn't really get them there. I'm pretty sure EZ-EFI 2.0 would also have the same issue. Don't know if it runs closed loop wideband or not. XFI and XFI sportsman? Don't know.

Accel doesn't have autotune.

MS3-Pro has autotune and overall it sounds like a beast capability-wise. Handles speedometer and tach. Closed loop wideband O2 running.

The Holley HP/Dominator EFI. This is the one I keep reading where a dude throws it on a turbocharged 350 in the morning and goes out and pulls full throttle runs that afternoon. Absolutely amazing. Built in WB O2 controller (and comes with sensor - HP only) Dominator you need to buy 2 sensors. Handles speedometer and tach. Closed loop wideband O2 running.

EBL-P4 - Does all the "Must haves" but comes in at half the price of Holley and MS3-Pro.


Appreciate any and all inputs.

Matt Cramer

I was the project manager on the MS3-Pro development, so I'm a bit biased. But I'll be glad to field questions on it.

Yes, it does have autotune. It's implemented a bit differently from some other ECUs as it uses a laptop to handle the number crunching instead of having the autotune on the ECU side. And yes, you can set it to run in closed loop with a wideband (I'm pretty sure Holley does that too).

The MS3-Pro has speedometer and tach outputs for the dash - the other gauges work on their own, with their own sensors and no ECU involvement.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Ebl4 for cost vs features and ease of integration. Plus alot of support here

MedVader

On the self tuning, when do the operational VE tables get updated? Does the laptop need to be in the car hooked up while doing a learning run?

If I wanted to keep my stock harness, would it be better to get the bare board and mount it in a '7730 box?

MedVader

Absolutely. I was just about to pull the trigger on the EBL last weekend before I thought to take one more look at what else is out there.

I will buy something by this weekend.

Dominic Sorresso

Aside from the features you seem to value, take a look at the software itself.
EBL closely follows the OEM coding and utilizes what GM put there in the first place. Take a look at how "granular" the tables are. How well does the software focus on part throttle, emissions, driveability?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Turbo GTA w/EBL-P4 here...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Idk if EBL gets any more resolution or not since i think you still would be limited by oem chip memory size and gm coding, but the 730 stuff has plenty of resolution to do most sensible street motors. I went 9's in a twin turbo 400" sbc running 730 based software. Great setup for bang for buck

Dominic Sorresso

Orr,

That was my point. Since EBL starts off from the OEM code, resolution is greater than what you would find in other aftermarket systems.

Matt Cramer

There's two options on current release code. One, you can have the laptop in the car full time, and can set the update intervals to whatever you want. Two, you can use the built in data logging to record things with no laptop, then download them to the laptop to use it to adjust the tune offline and upload a new tune.

The V1.3 code (currently in beta testing) also has a long term fuel trim feature that updates fuel tables without a laptop. However, it works more slowly as it is intended to correct for engine wear, etc. on top of an already tuned fuel table.

That, or you could make an external adapter harness. However, the stock TPI harness kind of holds you back when using a Holley or MS3-Pro. Here's some tricks that can't be pulled off with the stock '90 harness.

1. Individual cylinder tuning. The MS3-Pro has separate trim tables for each cylinder; the Holley has a fixed percentage. Either way, this is going to need some rewiring.

2. Sequential injection. This will need a different ignition setup - either a dual sync distributor or a crank and cam trigger combination. The payoff is improvements in idle quality and light throttle drivability.

3. Bypassing the ESC module (Ok, this could be done with the stock harness with a minor tweak). This lets the ECU adjust the knock threshold, and even run different threshold levels at different RPMs so you can raise the threshold as background noise goes up.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

EBL-P4 is a direct replacement, runs everything like stock...

Yes, I was dialed in at 0% correction after a few VE learns...

Utilizes the stock harness, took me three minutes to install...

You can use your stock memcal for knock filter if you desire...

Here is my install, USB port easily accessible under the vent, connect and tune, 1 2 3...

MedVader

I hear you bud. In fact I cannot find a thing wrong with EBL-P4.

I guess all I'm looking for in this thread is a reason why Holley HP or Dominator or MS3 is worth the extra money. And that thing is performance : power, drivability, fuel economy

The cool to haves list is growing.

I'll spend $1000 - $1500 to get the capability to be able to EASILY slap on a crank trigger to get SFI and COP down the road. EASILY being the key word.

MedVader

OK. That all sounds good to me.



What is individual cylinder tuning? What connections are needed for that? What sensor gives individual cylinder feedback? EGT on each runner?

What ESC module would I want to bypass? The one in the HEI distributor?

If you had a 6" adapter harness from the 7730 harness to your MS3-Pro with flying leads for the all the new I/O that would be a major selling point.

MedVader

Does anyone know if there are matching pigtail version of the 7730 connectors? Meaning the connectors that are on the 7730 ecu.

Or is the only option to rip those connectors out of a donor 7730 box and solder/crimp wires to the PCB pin side? Sort of a compromise, but if I go with MS3 or Holley, I would prefer to build a short adapter harness to their connectors.

I just don't like the idea of cutting off the 7730 connectors from the harness. It just bugs me. Sort of a "no going back" permanence to it.

Matt Cramer

You'd need to run separate individual wires to each injector; the 7730 uses only two wires, one for each bank.

There are several ways it could be done. Cheapest and least accurate way is old fashioned spark plug reading. EGT or a wideband per cylinder is more accurate.

The one wired to the knock sensor.

The connectors don't have a wire-to-wire version, but for the black 24 and 36 pin connectors, we have something called a DIYBOB: http://www.diyautotune.com/diybob/index.html It mounts the connector on a board that you can solder leads to. We don't currently have one for the greenish-yellow connector, as we haven't seen much demand for it. We are about to launch our first GM plug and play ECU (for the C4 Z06 Corvette), though, and we'll see if that changes things.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=MedVader;5726361]And that thing is performance : power, drivability, fuel economy
QUOTE]

If that's really what you're looking for then the Accel is second to none. It has more transient (drivability) tables than all the others listed.
And the self tuning on anybody's system is only as good as the air/fuels entered and doesn't do cold start or acceleration fueling. And you still need to do your spark map as well.
Lots of misconceptions on the self tuning stuff.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Misconceptions?

EBL-P4 comes with plenty of base bin files with SA/AE tables already in tact. Depending on the cylinder heads being used, there really isn't all that much to SA tuning, only to bring it all in at around 3000-RPM, then start pulling back if boost enters into the equation...

How much does the Accel system cost by the way, you neglected to mention...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It is not worth the extra money, believe me. I went with XFI for my Procharged C4 and spent a lot for the harness alone. Does it come with many features? Yes. Is it user friendly? Yes. Does it offer better drive-ability, fuel economy and power? No. Half of the features that add to the final cost you aren't even going to use, and they are so overrated it isn't even funny. Do you know how many guys ditched the two thousand dollar XFI and jumped back to the stock '7148 GN ecm modded by Bob Bailey and Eric Marshall in the Turbo Buick world? Plenty, and that is because they soon realized that any ecm can get the job done, and two grand simply is not feasible anymore. Maybe back in the 90's when people were blind to tuning, but not now. Funny thing is, most of the people that argue about this stuff rarely even race. We literally live at the track here by Raceway Park, and even carburetors are still taking out two thousand dollar control systems running against them down the track, so the cool factor doesn't really come into play as far as I'm concerned. The tuner has the final say in the end...

Good luck with whichever route you choose...

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=Street Lethal;5726808]It is not worth the extra money, believe me. I went with XFI for my Procharged C4 and spent a lot for the harness alone. Does it come with many features? Yes. Is it user friendly? Yes. Does it offer better drive-ability, fuel economy and power? No. Half of the features that add to the final cost you aren't even going to use, and they are so overrated it isn't even funny. Do you know how many guys ditched the two thousand dollar XFI and jumped back to the stock '7148 GN ecm modded by Bob Bailey and Eric Marshall in the Turbo Buick world? Plenty QUOTE]

Thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!! I couldn't have put it better myself!!!
I've contended that very same thing since the XFI came out. It's got all kinds of bells and whistles and they advertise the most, but that doesn't make it the best does it?

That why I said the Accel will drive better than all the rest in this category, period. Many of the tables were done from OEM type programs, i.e. their TAU table idea came from Ford and some of the starting fuel tables came from GM. (The previous Accel DFI building was literally right down the street from GM High Performance)

And the "Self tuning" only does the base fuel map. Check around, you'll see lots of guys having trouble with these self tuning systems on anything other than a 300hp 350. And on a blown application typically you won't have a wild cam in it. That plays right into the self tuning. Go beyond that and you'll almost certainly run into problems.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

I was told I'm not allowed to quote prices on here because I'm a dealer but didn't buy ad space. Pm me if you'd like more info. Thank you.

MedVader

Street, thanks for all the input. You and efiguy are absolutely right. In the end, there's no getting around the nitty gritty of tuning if you want a good running efi car. And no amount of fancy options (at the currently available level of tech) are going to get around that.


I went and read the Holley support forums for tuning the HP and Dominator. And guess what? They're all full of the same idling, driveability, throttle stumble, surging, ... issues I see on all the tuning boards. Their resident expert gives roughly the same advice as Rbob on the EBL tuning thread.

If I'm going to have to face the issue of tuning this thing by hand anyway, the EBL is a winner hands down.

MedVader

I understand your point. But at this point, given I gotta fine tune this by hand no matter what, what would Accel offer that's worth $500-$1000 more over the EBL modified GM controller?

The EBL at least gives me wideband O2 learning to get me a good point to start from. Way better than starting from a canned tune. The self learning is a valuable tool in the tuning chain. And if I can get that from the cheapest option, the next option up has to offer that at least.

I don't have anything exotic, 355 10.5:1, TPI manifold with slightly bigger runners, CC305 cam, 24lb injectors, ported Patriot iron vortecs, Accel tri-Y headers.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

My cam specs are actually much bigger than yours, and I am running a 305 engine. My static compression is a point and a half lower than yours, but with boost it towers above yours. The EBL-P4 dialed my engine in immediately, and with precision, and with no hiccups whatsoever. I don't want to post a video in your thread so I will just post the link, but this is with a smaller 305 engine, and a 23x/23x camshaft tuned by EBL-P4. In my opinion, standalone units like MS and Accel have their place, but normally in vehicles that are not ECM equipped like 60's and 70's vehicles, but that's just my opinion. It'd be ridiculous to pull a stock harness out if it can be utilized...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqXXeC-HduQ

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

I believe it has even more transient tables than the EBL.
Individual cylinder trim via load and RPM.
Adjustable injector timing via load and RPM.
1 stage of nitrous, and it calculates it for you. And doesn't the EBL spark map stop at 4000rpm? Sometimes there's performance to be had there as well.
I'm sure there's other things as well but I haven't viewed the EBL stuff lately so I don't want to talk out of school.

And I understand about the canned tune. But there are some who can get you real close, right from the start.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You really shouldnt have much issue getting that to run starting with an L98 bin.


It honestly didnt take much to get my big 400" motor running starting with a modded L98 based file and a 4.3 v6 turbo file haha. You'll be fine

RBob

iTrader: (1)

SA to 6400 RPM, VE to 8000 RPM.

RBob.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Gotcha.

However Accel is scalable from 0 to 12,500 for spark, air/fuel and VE.
And it still has the other features I mentioned over and above the EBL.
EBL is very tunable no doubt. But as mentioned, Accel took a lot of the OEM stuff one step further.
Both good systems.

DrkHwk

Subscribing, gonna need to figure something out here soon. Thanks for posting this topic.

scamaro355

I was leaning hard toward the xfi sportsman. But after reading this i think im gonna try EBL P4 setup. I eas always worried about figureing out GM coding. But ill never know if i can do it unless i try.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Has nobody else noticed that this guy is the author of one of the best selling efi startup books out there now? Great guy and very helpful, has helped me via email with a few things about MegaSquirt III extra. Glad to have you as a member here Matt!

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

You're kidding right? Exactly what systems are giving people trouble? I had a 350 wheel horsepower 350 that MegaSquirt III had no trouble tuning. My current 383 is around 400 and again MegaSquirt III had no trouble tuning it. The motors aren't wild still but plenty of people using MegaSquirt for high power stuff. I believe that three of the top six in the engine builders challenge last year used MegaSquirt. Where are you getting your information from?

dellman83Z

iTrader: (9)

I was throwing around ideas to swap from a c950. I ended up with holley hp. The main things I wanted to do was run ls coils, sequential fuel, and self correcting fuel table. That and a faster processor with much more table resolution. Almost done with the swap, tough to find the time.

nossbc

iTrader: (1)

I have a bs3 on my 72 chevelle turbo drag radial race car...and altho its more user friendly than the stock computer ebl p4...at the end still have to tune it..lol
on my race car drivability is not a concern all out performance is....I have the ebl p4 on my 500hp street car and I have to tell you its very good unit plus rbob gives you the best support there is....I tried getting help to start learning with bs3 4 years ago when I got it...and I run into a wall...lol
one thing I can tell you is you will be better to learn how to tune it...it will pay off at the end....at least it has with me.
still learning with the ebl tho but its defenatly made me a better tuner with my bs3.
just my 2 pesos