Tuning with the EBL
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
In this regard I think the best unit to go with is the NGK AFX with the NTK sensor. The NTK sensors are more robust to heat. Cost more, but can be worth it.
There are also ways to make heat sinks that help in this regard. A flat copper sheet that is placed between the mounting bung and the sensor.
Whatever is done, a WB sensor has to be post turbo, they are very sensitive to exhaust back pressure.
The TT-1 WB uses a Bosch sensor, and should not be placed close to the exhaust ports.
RBob.
There are also ways to make heat sinks that help in this regard. A flat copper sheet that is placed between the mounting bung and the sensor.
Whatever is done, a WB sensor has to be post turbo, they are very sensitive to exhaust back pressure.
The TT-1 WB uses a Bosch sensor, and should not be placed close to the exhaust ports.
RBob.
#3402
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Oh no no, I definitely run both the NB and WB sensors after the turbo in the dowpipe, but the Bosch WB sensors need to be put back at least three feet from the turbo. I had mine at about a foot and a half, and it went bad after a few weeks. Some of the GN guys had told me about the FAST sensors, and how they can take the heat no problem. Will look up the sensors you recommended above, they might just do the trick. Will see you at Kirbans if you go...
- Rob
- Rob
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Using the TT-1, I have the sensor way down the pipe. Then a NB 3-wire (AFS-74) in the downpipe about a foot from the turbo. This works out well.
Placed the NB there as the stock location has an EGT probe in it. And keeping it close to the engine reduces transport delay. I plan on being there...
I mentioned the back pressure on a WB as an overall thing for others that read this thread.
RBob.
Placed the NB there as the stock location has an EGT probe in it. And keeping it close to the engine reduces transport delay. I plan on being there...
I mentioned the back pressure on a WB as an overall thing for others that read this thread.
RBob.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Using the TT-1, I have the sensor way down the pipe. Then a NB 3-wire (AFS-74) in the downpipe about a foot from the turbo. This works out well.
Placed the NB there as the stock location has an EGT probe in it. And keeping it close to the engine reduces transport delay. I plan on being there...
I mentioned the back pressure on a WB as an overall thing for others that read this thread.
RBob.
Placed the NB there as the stock location has an EGT probe in it. And keeping it close to the engine reduces transport delay. I plan on being there...
I mentioned the back pressure on a WB as an overall thing for others that read this thread.
RBob.
With the sensor way down the pipe, wouldn't that badly increasy transport delay, or was that referring to the EGT?
I wasn't aware the WBO2 sensors are more sensitive to exhaust backpressure.. interesting.
Also, I found that some recent cars are using WBO2 sensors that are only an inch or so after the turbo. I wonder how they do with reliability?
Hmm, that one i looked at more closely was an NTK WBO2 tho.. I know that because it had crapped out and had to be replaced haha!
The heat sinks as mentioned can be fabricated according to innovate instructions: (page 6)
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/s...LM1_Manual.pdf
One more Q: is there any compatibility between the various WB systems and the sensors? Like NTK, FAST, Bosch LSU sensors..
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
RBob.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Originally Posted by ownor
I wasn't aware the WBO2 sensors are more sensitive to exhaust backpressure.. interesting...
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps0ab25668.jpg
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Woah... RBob has eluded a little to what he's running himself
I'm a little curious... what about a dual exhaust setup with an x-pipe? I have a '78 Malibu I'm thinking of an EBL for down the road, and right now it has longtubes and a Pypes system with an x-pipe. Does the EBL learn off more than 1 O2 sensor? I'm thinking the collector area is probably a usable location for a pair of sensors.
I'm a little curious... what about a dual exhaust setup with an x-pipe? I have a '78 Malibu I'm thinking of an EBL for down the road, and right now it has longtubes and a Pypes system with an x-pipe. Does the EBL learn off more than 1 O2 sensor? I'm thinking the collector area is probably a usable location for a pair of sensors.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Doober, FWIW, I had tossed that around when I first did my EBL (classic) in the wagon. I had a bung in each header. I ran a NB in one side, and the WB in other. After I got the tune, I swapped sides for hahas and didn't see any change needed for the tune. This was a just rebuilt engine by the way, with a highrise GMPP vortec intake, and the n20 plate. So I did have some open plenum under the TB.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Woah... RBob has eluded a little to what he's running himself
I'm a little curious... what about a dual exhaust setup with an x-pipe? I have a '78 Malibu I'm thinking of an EBL for down the road, and right now it has longtubes and a Pypes system with an x-pipe. Does the EBL learn off more than 1 O2 sensor? I'm thinking the collector area is probably a usable location for a pair of sensors.
I'm a little curious... what about a dual exhaust setup with an x-pipe? I have a '78 Malibu I'm thinking of an EBL for down the road, and right now it has longtubes and a Pypes system with an x-pipe. Does the EBL learn off more than 1 O2 sensor? I'm thinking the collector area is probably a usable location for a pair of sensors.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Okay I have a new problem
Just swapped out fuel injectors to 60lb injectors, running a TPI with EBL P4. It ran before the swap. Now I went to start the car after the swap and the WUD ran an error that said ~"your are using the wrong WUD software for SFI-6" I though that was weird and then noted that the WUD sated MPFI 4, 3 bar, and thought I was doing like 150mph and all sorts of other crazy stuff. Needless to say the car wont start. I did check my file and there is nothing i can find wrong with it shows v8 with two bar, flash to EBL P4 verifies and when I read from the P4 and save it as a new file and open it I find it is the same file I had flashed. For the first time I am ready to push the car off a cliff; please help.
FYI the injector swap also included the fpr and a few other things like vacuum lines etc but I am so low on time the car was disassembled for 6 months I mention this because I thought there might be some volatile memory and a dead battery on the ECU that i wasn't aware of but couldn't find any.
Thanks all
Just swapped out fuel injectors to 60lb injectors, running a TPI with EBL P4. It ran before the swap. Now I went to start the car after the swap and the WUD ran an error that said ~"your are using the wrong WUD software for SFI-6" I though that was weird and then noted that the WUD sated MPFI 4, 3 bar, and thought I was doing like 150mph and all sorts of other crazy stuff. Needless to say the car wont start. I did check my file and there is nothing i can find wrong with it shows v8 with two bar, flash to EBL P4 verifies and when I read from the P4 and save it as a new file and open it I find it is the same file I had flashed. For the first time I am ready to push the car off a cliff; please help.
FYI the injector swap also included the fpr and a few other things like vacuum lines etc but I am so low on time the car was disassembled for 6 months I mention this because I thought there might be some volatile memory and a dead battery on the ECU that i wasn't aware of but couldn't find any.
Thanks all
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
The SFI-6 thing sounds very strange to me. Are you sure you are using the correct injectors? saturated vs. PnH (low vs. high impedance (Z)).. http://dynamicefi.com/InjectorDriving.php
Otherwise, maybe a software, hardware or communication fault. I would rule out the injectors if the are the right type and the wiring is ok. Simply because of that SFI-6 thing. Maybe try reinstalling (the correct -> P4 version) WUD..
Waiting for RBob to chime in and save the day here
Otherwise, maybe a software, hardware or communication fault. I would rule out the injectors if the are the right type and the wiring is ok. Simply because of that SFI-6 thing. Maybe try reinstalling (the correct -> P4 version) WUD..
Waiting for RBob to chime in and save the day here
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
True, I wouldn't suspect much different if they were flow matched... right near the X junction sounds like a good idea, but it's getting kind of out there far as distance from the engine goes (even though it would be heated).
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Okay I have a new problem
Just swapped out fuel injectors to 60lb injectors, running a TPI with EBL P4. It ran before the swap. Now I went to start the car after the swap and the WUD ran an error that said ~"your are using the wrong WUD software for SFI-6" I though that was weird and then noted that the WUD sated MPFI 4, 3 bar, and thought I was doing like 150mph and all sorts of other crazy stuff. Needless to say the car wont start. I did check my file and there is nothing i can find wrong with it shows v8 with two bar, flash to EBL P4 verifies and when I read from the P4 and save it as a new file and open it I find it is the same file I had flashed. For the first time I am ready to push the car off a cliff; please help.
FYI the injector swap also included the fpr and a few other things like vacuum lines etc but I am so low on time the car was disassembled for 6 months I mention this because I thought there might be some volatile memory and a dead battery on the ECU that i wasn't aware of but couldn't find any.
Thanks all
Just swapped out fuel injectors to 60lb injectors, running a TPI with EBL P4. It ran before the swap. Now I went to start the car after the swap and the WUD ran an error that said ~"your are using the wrong WUD software for SFI-6" I though that was weird and then noted that the WUD sated MPFI 4, 3 bar, and thought I was doing like 150mph and all sorts of other crazy stuff. Needless to say the car wont start. I did check my file and there is nothing i can find wrong with it shows v8 with two bar, flash to EBL P4 verifies and when I read from the P4 and save it as a new file and open it I find it is the same file I had flashed. For the first time I am ready to push the car off a cliff; please help.
FYI the injector swap also included the fpr and a few other things like vacuum lines etc but I am so low on time the car was disassembled for 6 months I mention this because I thought there might be some volatile memory and a dead battery on the ECU that i wasn't aware of but couldn't find any.
Thanks all
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
You're excused
I kid of course... my original thought was right at the header collector was why I originally said 2. The x-pipe junction is back near the output shaft of the transmission, probably another 24-30" of pipe? I don't know how picky heated O2 sensors are for readings, but last I read, an unheated one is best right up near the head, to keep it hot... but since a heated sensor is its own source, it's kinda hard to judge. The exhaust is a longtube setup, no cats, and dual 2½" stainless exhaust.
I kid of course... my original thought was right at the header collector was why I originally said 2. The x-pipe junction is back near the output shaft of the transmission, probably another 24-30" of pipe? I don't know how picky heated O2 sensors are for readings, but last I read, an unheated one is best right up near the head, to keep it hot... but since a heated sensor is its own source, it's kinda hard to judge. The exhaust is a longtube setup, no cats, and dual 2½" stainless exhaust.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
As Rbob pointed out just a few posts back the NBO2 should be close to the engine:
Still not sure why you would put 2 sensors at the same location unless you needed a redundant system or had to be very accurate as to measure with two sensors (with different built-in tolerances) and build an average.
If we had a way to offset fueling bank-to-bank, well that would be a different story with a sensor for each bank.
If we had a way to offset fueling bank-to-bank, well that would be a different story with a sensor for each bank.
#3417
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
As I may have stated, my heated 02(Delco) is about 3 inch behind collector flange and no issues. Reads just fine and consistent. I was on Xway today cruising at 65 and I could see the highway mode coming in and out on WB(Bosch). WB02 about 24 inch behind collector flange in opposite pipe. true duals. I believe the code turns it off - on in 30 sec or so intervals.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Yes, I remember seeing the in/out time for hwy mode... I think default is lean cruise for 240s, then normal for 30s or something like that, I'm guessing that's to help keep chamber temps from getting too high in case they're too lean.
I haven't put a nb back in lately because I've been trying to get the stupid thing tuned... only found out after the fact I'm going to have to go through and redo it all anyway since I had a pretty substantial leak at the TBI/carb adapter. I plan on getting another NB, just not til I have the tune all sorted out.
I haven't put a nb back in lately because I've been trying to get the stupid thing tuned... only found out after the fact I'm going to have to go through and redo it all anyway since I had a pretty substantial leak at the TBI/carb adapter. I plan on getting another NB, just not til I have the tune all sorted out.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
hi rbob I been tunning my car lately and its been going good just having a hard time trying to fire it when cold, needs more fuel I think when cold.
is there a enrichment mode ve for when the motor is cold?
it strats great once warm...
383 tpi , hsr and tfs g1 heads 30lb inj.
thanks.
is there a enrichment mode ve for when the motor is cold?
it strats great once warm...
383 tpi , hsr and tfs g1 heads 30lb inj.
thanks.
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hi rbob I been tunning my car lately and its been going good just having a hard time trying to fire it when cold, needs more fuel I think when cold.
is there a enrichment mode ve for when the motor is cold?
it strats great once warm...
383 tpi , hsr and tfs g1 heads 30lb inj.
thanks.
is there a enrichment mode ve for when the motor is cold?
it strats great once warm...
383 tpi , hsr and tfs g1 heads 30lb inj.
thanks.
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
I see no good reason you can't stand the sensor off a bit.
Screw a nipple into the bung, and the sensor into the nipple, so that the exhaust flows past, and not directly onto, the sensor element.
I haven't done it, but looking at a variety of combustion analyzer sensor probes, it would seem that it should work, and keep the sensor out of the "torch flame" directly.
#3422
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
I'm not really sure how they work but check out the choke tables.. I think a larger value is richer mabey? ... I copied them over from the modified 327sbc bin and they seem to work well for me ... only thing now is it kinda stutters when cold if u try to give it more than about 1/4 throttle during accel ... bit that's only for prolly first 10 min on a completely cold engine so no big deal really ..
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
thanks I changed the choke afr by 7% and it worked!!!
also can I used any digital autometer gauges to datalog with the ebl?
Last edited by nossbc; 04-20-2014 at 09:34 PM.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
I'm not really sure how they work but check out the choke tables.. I think a larger value is richer mabey? ... I copied them over from the modified 327sbc bin and they seem to work well for me ... only thing now is it kinda stutters when cold if u try to give it more than about 1/4 throttle during accel ... bit that's only for prolly first 10 min on a completely cold engine so no big deal really ..
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And thanks I'll look into that doober
I have another ? ..... when I turn the key on my FP jumps up but then within about 30 seconds it falls back to zero ? Shouldn't the fuel system hold pressure ? I can't find any fuel leaks either
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
hi rbob I been tunning my car lately and its been going good just having a hard time trying to fire it when cold, needs more fuel I think when cold.
is there a enrichment mode ve for when the motor is cold?
it strats great once warm...
383 tpi , hsr and tfs g1 heads 30lb inj.
thanks.
is there a enrichment mode ve for when the motor is cold?
it strats great once warm...
383 tpi , hsr and tfs g1 heads 30lb inj.
thanks.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
thanks..im trying to get an all out performance out the lil engine....seems to roast the drag radials more than before...working on my sa main and extended tables now, just a question why when I fill the sa main table across the board with lets say 38* from 2000rpm to 4400rpm on the wud it only actually shows 28* timing in that rpm range
the numbers on the table are actually not the timing but a percentage?
im lost...
I tried putting 60* on table and in the wud it shows actually 38*...I don't have a knock filter so no knock counts for me im doing all by ear...lol
Last edited by nossbc; 04-21-2014 at 07:12 PM.
#3428
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
The values in the main & extended SA tables are the actual SA values, not a percentage. You must have changed other SA values that is affecting the end result.
Go back through the .log files to see what else was changed.
RBob.
Go back through the .log files to see what else was changed.
RBob.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
For the 38° max instead of 60°, that could be due to:
SA - Maximum SA
Maximum spark advance allowed. This value is distributor advance and is set by the physical constraints of the distributor.
Otherwise, there could an offset with the base/initial timing that you put in in the calibration (SA - Initial SA). Off top my head, I'm not quite sure if the WUD includes that in its display for SA or not..
SA - Maximum SA
Maximum spark advance allowed. This value is distributor advance and is set by the physical constraints of the distributor.
Otherwise, there could an offset with the base/initial timing that you put in in the calibration (SA - Initial SA). Off top my head, I'm not quite sure if the WUD includes that in its display for SA or not..
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
performance seems ok...but have to get it to the track to actually tell.
I set the timing before installing the ebl at 6* at idle with the wire disconnected.
I believe I used the 3006.bin tpi corvette alum head.
and enriched ve by 15% and afr stays about 12.5-12.8 all thru full throttle
when cruising its still a lil lean like 15.0 to 15.5 afr
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Currently the EBL SFI-6 is the only EBL system that supports dual MAP sensors. For a 2-bar MAP it really isn't needed to also run a 1-bar. When using a 3-bar MAP it does make a difference. As the 3-bar MAP resolution is much lower along with the error band being worse once below 70 KPa.
RBob.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Originally Posted by Cflick
If I was you....... ( but I'm not )
I see no good reason you can't stand the sensor off a bit.
Screw a nipple into the bung, and the sensor into the nipple, so that the exhaust flows past, and not directly onto, the sensor element.
I haven't done it, but looking at a variety of combustion analyzer sensor probes, it would seem that it should work, and keep the sensor out of the "torch flame" directly.
I see no good reason you can't stand the sensor off a bit.
Screw a nipple into the bung, and the sensor into the nipple, so that the exhaust flows past, and not directly onto, the sensor element.
I haven't done it, but looking at a variety of combustion analyzer sensor probes, it would seem that it should work, and keep the sensor out of the "torch flame" directly.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
hi again...im looking at the ebl website and I found what most Acronyms and Abbreviations are...but im looking to see if I can find what each flag means and do and also the same thing for scalars and tables?
is there such things I know what most are but some I have no clue on.
thanks again.
is there such things I know what most are but some I have no clue on.
thanks again.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
There was an adapter bung like that in which came with the earlier LC1 wideband kits for closer installation of the Bosch sensors, you would screw the adapter into the O2 bung, then the wideband into the adapter. The adapter just needed to be facing the proper way. Not sure whats it's called, nor if they sell them separately. May definitely give it a shot though...
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Car: 1991 firebird
Engine: TBI 305 (built)
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 4.10
Re: Tuning with the EBL
hello everyone ! I really need some help with this tune...
im really starting to get discouraged with it .. and if I cant get this thing running close to what its capable of im gonna go crazy! heres a copy of my bin and 2 short wot datalogs .... please help! I will pay somebody to go thru my bin and do what needs to b done thanks !
im really starting to get discouraged with it .. and if I cant get this thing running close to what its capable of im gonna go crazy! heres a copy of my bin and 2 short wot datalogs .... please help! I will pay somebody to go thru my bin and do what needs to b done thanks !
#3440
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
hello everyone ! I really need some help with this tune...
im really starting to get discouraged with it .. and if I cant get this thing running close to what its capable of im gonna go crazy! heres a copy of my bin and 2 short wot datalogs .... please help! I will pay somebody to go thru my bin and do what needs to b done thanks !
im really starting to get discouraged with it .. and if I cant get this thing running close to what its capable of im gonna go crazy! heres a copy of my bin and 2 short wot datalogs .... please help! I will pay somebody to go thru my bin and do what needs to b done thanks !
RBob.
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Car: 1991 firebird
Engine: TBI 305 (built)
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 4.10
Yea no traction at all that's with 255/50/18 Continentals about 10" tread width ... but I only let em down to 40psi they call for 51 ... and what do u mean to much sa in higher gears ? The pe vs gear ?
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
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Car: 1991 firebird
Engine: TBI 305 (built)
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 4.10
So that's all u can see us too much timing ? ... I usually run a open loop tune just recently switched to closed loop to do some blm learns that I never got around to..also seems my ve tables look too wavy
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
#3443
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Yea no traction at all that's with 255/50/18 Continentals about 10" tread width ... but I only let em down to 40psi they call for 51 ... and what do u mean to much sa in higher gears ? The pe vs gear ?
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
> Yea I'm just running some all season continental used tires I paid 80$ for both backs
The PE versus Gear table is barely being used, this is due to how the calibration is set up. You have the N/V option flag set, but only gear 0 filled in.
First, zero out the entire PE vs Gear table. Then start reducing the SA in the Main & Extended tables in the 80 - 100 KPa areas (WOT). Work on the SA with 3rd & 4th gear pulls.
Get the engine to smooth out, read the plugs for detonation (no, the knock sensor doesn't always pick it up).
To fill in the PE vs Gear table will first need to find some traction. Then add some SA in the lower gears to get the car moving out. Note that the launch Mode (LM) SA can also be used, or zero'd out.
As the car goes up through the gears less SA will be required in the PE vs Gear table. Remember, a smooth engine is a fast engine.
RBob.
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Car: 1991 firebird
Engine: TBI 305 (built)
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 4.10
Traction AA temp A tread ware 400 even and they are 255/45/18 continental conti procontact ......
So I need to reduce my 80-90 sa in the main tables .... what about ae n pe n all that ? My AFR's were all over the place .... and I have a very good CAI what should I do with the iaT/CTS blends? Should I just use an SA table in the supplied bins ? And go from there ?
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
So I need to reduce my 80-90 sa in the main tables .... what about ae n pe n all that ? My AFR's were all over the place .... and I have a very good CAI what should I do with the iaT/CTS blends? Should I just use an SA table in the supplied bins ? And go from there ?
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
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Car: 1991 firebird
Engine: TBI 305 (built)
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 4.10
I really didn't do a very good burnout when I went to track so that could b some of it ... but like I said I only got 2 passes in before it rained out bit I get in free this Thursday ...rain check please !
IMA throw bout 3 gal a 110 in her n fill er up wit premium
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
IMA throw bout 3 gal a 110 in her n fill er up wit premium
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
#3447
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
So I need to reduce my 80-90 sa in the main tables .... what about ae n pe n all that ? My AFR's were all over the place .... and I have a very good CAI what should I do with the iaT/CTS blends? Should I just use an SA table in the supplied bins ? And go from there ?
what about ae n pe n all that ?
#3448
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Originally Posted by Ronny
The Innovate adapter is machined stainless steel. I dont recall a need to face it in one direction but it has been quite a while since I looked at it or directions. I do recall the the need to place it at 9 12 03 oclock so it is not resting in moisture. It does limit the placement for me as adapter adds to lenght. I recall it being like 2.5-3 inches long. OBTW it is a bit pricey!
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Car: 1991 firebird
Engine: TBI 305 (built)
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 4.10
So can anyone suggest a sa table I should strlart with ? I'm going back to track tomorrow night ! I need this thing to pull some decent numbers ... help !!!
Running TFS super 23 175cc heads and 214/218 cam with 10.5:1 compression
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
Running TFS super 23 175cc heads and 214/218 cam with 10.5:1 compression
91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!
#3450
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Adapter available from Innovate under accessories. I think it was $75-$90! $$
I am current uning an SA table slightly more conservative than LT4 aluminum heads and more aggressive than LT1 iron heads. I have newer edition aluminum Edel RPM 64cc.
I am current uning an SA table slightly more conservative than LT4 aluminum heads and more aggressive than LT1 iron heads. I have newer edition aluminum Edel RPM 64cc.