camaroyoungster

I dont know where to put this but I thought this would be a good spot. I was wondering about your guy's opinion on a E-85 conversion. I wanted to run boost in the future but don't want to run premium fuel. I heard that E-85 is 105 octane and is way cheap in Wisconsin. I was wondering if I would have to change fuel injectors or adjust the AFR's accordingly. I know alot of high power-boost cars like modded GTRs run E-85 conversions so they can make more power and with less knocking. Any opinions are accepted.

Also, what would you think it would take to convert to E-85, if it would not be worth it or what.

Thanks, Drew

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You would need e85 compatible fuel pump, lines and larger injectors. Its something like 30-40% more fuel for same power, so injectors i would go 40-50% larger than gas equivalent.

If its readily available, nothing wrong with ethanol. Works great as long as the blend is consistant season to season, station to station.

Tune it like any gas motor via wideband. Lambda .78-.82 seems to be good for hp with abit of boost. If gauge is calibrated for gas then it would read same air fuels as gas since sensor reads in lambda and converts to air fuel by equation.

camaroyoungster

Ok, thanks. I was reading though that a lot rubber fuel lines are protective against the effects of E-85 and also the fuel pump shouldn't be Affected either, except maybe get a bigger fuel pump since it needs more fuel. Would you know if braided steel lines work with E-85?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

They can but i would run the teflon lined hoses for that application

camaroyoungster

Ok, Thanks a bunch

T/Aperformance

I agree with Orr89RockZ, you do need a fuel pump made for running ethanol. I'm running the walbro E400, but that is going to be to big for a 3.1 if that is your engine size You fuel injectors need to be at least 35 percent larger for a stock engine. For fuel lines I would stay away from rubber anything, I'm running stainless steel. for best performance your air fuel ratio should be around 8to1. And if your car is computer controlled then you will want it tuned for running E85 for better performance.
Now when it comes to E85 fuel the biggest problem when getting it from a gas station is it bean there awhile a not to many people use it and they don't get in fresh fuel as much as they get unleaded fuel. The effects of this is that the octane rating is normally a lot lower than the 105 it should be. Ethanol evaporates faster than gasoline. Cost wise E85 from the gas station end up costing you more the unleaded fuel since you will be using over 30 percent more fuel per mile.

topradman

I would step lightly on this conversion and do some home work. You first have to commit to the power adder you want and what you are expecting out of it. E85 is not a savings over 91 but it is a savings over c16! To avoid buying multiple sets of injectors ($$$) not to mention fuel lines, pumps, etc... you need to make a hard firm decision on what you want from your car at the rear wheels. If you can be satisfied with 4-500hp, not so bad but still not cheap with all the peripherals. If that isn't even close to where you want to go, than back up and do some more homework. You will save yourself huge amounts of $$$ and spare parts with a well thought out parts plan and a serious target power decision. Been there, done that ( what I mean to say is $$$$$$$$$). Of course there are variables on costs dependent on what you can do yourself but if your talking about injectors then your talking about fuel injection ( of course ) and trust me, it is no cheap date. It's not just the fuel costs by a long shot! I promise. There are a lot of folks on here that can help but still, no cheap dates with serious, fuel injected E85 rwhp numbers.

T/Aperformance

Tpradman: You are right, The cost to set up for ethanol isn't that cheep, Ethanol is hell on rubber parts. and it attracts water that corrodes aluminum ( as in your fuel logs ).
Now one could start off as I did and set up knowing ahead of time what I wanted out of my car, Upgrading the fuel system first, The fuel tank should be changed to a plastic one from a 4th gen, the metal ones from the third gen may end up with rust because of the water ethanol attracts, And as I mentioned before I run stainless steel fuel lines that are bigger than the stock lines. For now I'm not running boost, But do plan to, I did it this way because I needed to learn to tune for ethanol fuel, Found out I needed a wide ban O2 sensor to really tune the engine. And I've spent many hours data logging and tuning,

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

not really worth it unless you plan on running very hi boost. but pump gas and alky/water injection will get it done in 9/10 times. if dont really plan on racing much. its not all that much cheaper than pump gas. since you have to use a higher quantity than regular ole pump. it will add eventually. but it does add an extra kick on a turbo car.no lie bout that

T/Aperformance

Well if you buy it from the gas station then no it's not worth it on a regular car at this time. But if you make it yourself then it's a real savings. It cost nothing to get the license from the government. You can even get some of what you need for free. instead of using corn you can use old bread and donuts that the bakery throws out, or bad fruit and such from the supermarket that they normally throw out.
my cost to upgrade my fuel system was under $400.
And my reflux still didn't even cost me $200.
If I use corn to make it my cost is around $1.30 per gallon, If I sell the used corn after I make my ethanol to a dairy or pig farm my cost is under .60 cents per gallon. And its that time of year to make it from corn and fill the air with the smell of corn bread.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

1) E-85 Compatible fuel pump, and lines
2) Larger injectors
3) Megasquirt ECM
4) Flex fuel sensor

Then you could run e-85, regular, any mix of fuel and it will adjust your mixture for you.

-- Joe

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

yup I read up on the diy kit for the e85. but I live in the city and no access to cheap corn or material.
theres a station bout 2 miles from my shop. so I can use it now and keep it on hand in a drum in the shop.but before with my old build I really wanted to do it and built around it.
my whole fuel system is compatible with it. it is worth it if you plan on very hi hp. and are gonna be racing and want to be at max effort.
but for a dd type car. it don't make sense around here. theres a few pumps here but they are spread way far all over the city. even though this city is one of the biggest in the nation. the e85 pumps are hard to come by.
I had this convo w a guy im building a turbo kit for. the best solution was to use pure meth injection on a hobbs switch. and a2w ic and use ice when he goes to the track.
im sure its different around other parts of the country. but its not widely available here like regular pump gas stations.

camaroyoungster

Yeah, since I live in Wisconsin, we have it all over the place and I think it is at $2.35 a gallon for it. I was planning on doing a turbo eventually and thought it might be a good idea for fuel. Would it clog anything in the exhaust like o2 senor and cat or does it burn pretty clean?

T/Aperformance

The biggest problem with buying E-85 at the gas station is that it sits in there tanks longer, ethanol evaporates making the octane rating lower, The second problem is that ethanol attracts water easily , Its one of the reason I decided to make my own.
If you wanted to buy it and store it I would recommend doing so in a plastic sealed container, Keep water out and evaporation down.
No ethanol will not clog 02 sensor. I'm running a wide band to tune my set up and the narrow band is still there and hooked up. I don't think it will clog your cats. Mine are still under the car but they were gutted years ago. The thing about ethanol is it does burn clean. I mean really clean, You won't foul your spark plugs. Any time someone has a clogged cat or O2 sensor is because of oil based fuels. Gasoline is a very dirty fuel, It leaves deposits , Ethanol burns clean, when it evaporates it is like it was never there. Unlike gasoline which leave a residue, You can even clean your car parts with ethanol and not worry about it leaving any residue or a film on it,
The only thing I worry about is water that ethanol attracts and what effects it has on aluminum, As in my fuel rails, If I could find stainless steel fuel rails I would care about the little water it attracts.

breynolds

iTrader: (1)

I'm running Bosch 42lb injectors and a Stealth 340 fuel pump. All stock lines. Just keep the filter changed and keep an eye on ethanol content. Most stations up here in the midwest change to E70 during the winter, and if you're like me and live in Iowa, it's now E70 all year round. Also, this goes without saying, but you're gonna need a tune. Don't listen to these guys telling you you have to buy an expensive stand alone unit. I've had my tuned by a Dynosports in Lincoln, Ne and more recently by the guys at Karl's Performance here in Des Moines, Ia.
http://www.karlperformance.com/

camaroyoungster

thanks for the info. I always thought if it was advertised as e-85 it should actually be e-85. And I was planning on tuning it anyways with the stock ecm. Doesn't seem that hard to do.

breynolds

iTrader: (1)

It's not as complicated as people make it out to be. I retuned mine this spring and checked the ethanol content. It was E70, and every tank I've filled up with so far all year long has been E70. Now, if I decide to travel outside of Iowa, I might have some problems finding fuel.

project89

iTrader: (1)

u dont need e-85 to boost a v6 period , we have guys boosting 15 psi and 200 shots of nitrous on pump gas , ive personally boosted over 20 psi on pump gas with my v6. the v6 unles sboosted to 50+ psi will never make enough power that u cant run it on pump gas

my iroc runs 8-12 psi on 87 octane , and im working on an 85 octane tune for daily driving duty

if ur really worried about it install a methanol injection system

breynolds

iTrader: (1)

So, spend a few hundred dollars on a methanol system you have to continuously fill up OR go E85 and enjoy gas at $2.35 a gallon and enjoy the same benefits?

topradman

Just curious.... what kind of timing can you run with this pump gas on the "15 psi and 200 shot of nitrous" ? What is the fuel set up on that car, i.e. fuel lines, pump, injector size and what octane "pump gas" ? Or, what fuel set up on 20psi on your v-6. Is it a stock engine and fuel???

project89

iTrader: (1)

u dont have to continuously fill up with meth injection, once every few weeks or maybe once every 2 weeks

u can do a complete system under 150 bucks


not sure on the 15psi and nitrous car u would have to ask blc
on my car i run 91/92 pump gas 16* timing( at lower boost i run 18/19* timing) , walboro fuel pump stock lines , 42# injectors with base fp jacked up to 55 psi and a fpr off a gran national , no meth injection only a front mount intercooler

shortblock is stock other then a cam and modified hyd lifters , ported heads and intake


fastddi had his v6 car running 18 psi non intercooled on meth injection , but now has a larger turbo non intercooled on meth running 9 psi making more power then it did with the old turbo at 18 psi

iirc his setup is 255 pump and i wanna say 48/50# injectors

the point is on pump gas it will support more hp then u can make with or without methanol injection and still knock down 28-35mpg depnding on how well u can tune .

fasteddi has no closed loop tune and knocks down 28/29 mpg highway

my car has 4:10 rear gears a 4500 non lockup stall and still gets 33-35mpg unless im beating on it

T/Aperformance

It's nice to see others use E85 or close to it. You are right you can use a stock ecm to tune for it.
What are you using to test the ethanol content?
I still don't think the price for E85 at the gas stations is worth it. Right now it's cheaper to run unleaded fuel.

breynolds

iTrader: (1)

I don't quite understand what you're saying. You're saying pump gas supports more power? How so? It's the fuel system that supports the power. Yes it has to 30% more capable than straight gasoline, but given the octane rating of E85, I'd say that it can support more power. There's a reason it's popular. 105 octane for under $3 a gallon...no brianer in my book.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/qft-36-e85/overview/
$17

My tuner gave me one he had laying around.

project89

iTrader: (1)

On a v6 pump gAs will support all the power u can make safley

I ran e85 on a destroked 3.4. Cause boost was approaching 30 psi, made the same power on pumpgas and injection as it did on e85.

T/Aperformance

I just use a regular Hydrometer, or at least I used to. I just shake the jar now and watch the bubbles. If its right then I add 5 gallons of unleaded to 100 gallons of ethanol And store it all in 55 gallon food grade plastic drums. I wish I didn't have to poison the ethanol.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

If I could get e85 locally, I'd be running so much boost and advance my crank would divorce the block on my 412.

That's really the problem I'm facing now. My top end can make twice as much power as the block can sustain.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

just cause u run e85 doesnt mean u can run more advance, depends on the engine , with the small bore v6 we can run 23-25* but doesnt make a difference as after 19/20* it stops making more power. with a few chamber mods we can get them to like around 21* but thats it


i gave up on my 3.0L project ( destoked 3.4 ) as i dropped a valve on the dyno and it destroyed alot of expensive parts, i pieced it back together with some parts i had laying around but it killed the rpm potential of the engine

engine was built to make all its power between 6,000 and 9,000+ rpms had a 70mm turbo on it with a t76 waiting to take its place


my biggest hurdle is it destroyed a one off cyl head that i can no longer replace

engine was a built to compete in a drag racing class with a 3L displacement limit

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Depends on head/chamber design, cam. I don't do anything with the v6's, but I've built a lot of blown v8 cars that were on the edge.


How much power did the v6 make before it ate the valve?

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

its dropped at just over 6K rpms and 500 ish crank engine was just getting to were it was going to make power

locks failed or retainer broke and all hell broke loose

breynolds

iTrader: (1)

That may be true. There's too many variables and details to go into, but the fact of the matter is, E85 can support more power than pump gas. It has more octane. And just because you CAN use pump gas and make it all work safely, doesn't mean switching to E85 doesn't make sense. The pros outweigh the cons for some people's situations. Cheap price and higher octane is a win win in anybody's book.

Now, if I didn't want to upgrade my fuel system, of coarse pump gas is going to be the way to go. Let's be honest though. If you're at the point of needing higher octane to support boost, high compression, lots of timing, or nitrous, you're probably upgrading the fuel system and getting a tune anyway and isn't going to cost you much more, if any, for a pump and injectors.

camaroyoungster

Now when you guys talk about adding timing, are you talking about advancing it or retarding it?

breynolds

iTrader: (1)

Advance

Drkhrse89

iTrader: (1)

Are you talking MS3 and or an aftermarket FF sensor?

I just recently purchased a MS2 for my project and have been doing some research on the GM FF sensor and it seems like there would be a major problem with switching between fuels on the fly. You would almost need to do a pre-start fuel spray for the computer to be able to detect what type of fuel you are using and then the MS would be able to decipher what program you need to run. Otherwise the car would not like you very much, until the WB caught up to what fuel you were using.

I haven't extended that research into the aftermarket FF sensors as they might be better, but are also 10Xs the cost when you consider you can pick a sensor up from the JY for $5 or so.

breynolds

iTrader: (1)

Or you could just spend a few thousand dollars on ProEFI and an ethanol content sensor.

camaroyoungster

Does Pro EFI even make a system for our computer? for v6s anyways.

camaroyoungster

I just looked at PRO efi systems and they are expensive

breynolds

iTrader: (1)

They're stand alone.

My buddy has an 03 Cobra and is friends with Chris Moore of Moore Tuning. Chris is a vendor and got my buddy a pretty good deal on his setup. I don't know much about it, but I've been told it can sense ethanol content and adjust accordingly as well as has parameters for traction control. Expect to spend between $3,500 and $5000 though. Not cheap.

Drac0nic

So, stupid question if you haven't hit the limits of E85's detonation tolerances and still have optimal timing when are you going to compound one of these engines and see what they can really do? It may be like the DSM guys who run 45 PSI at times. I mean I'd think you need Orings too but hey if you can't go high RPM go high pressure.

The ProEFI boxes are awesome. Not saying you can't do what you do on something else, just that they have a ton of features like they have an FP sensor that cuts fuel if it senses excess pressure drop. My buddy had the FPR line blow off on the dyno, and it cut and likely saved his engine. He was running E50 and made 690 at the wheels that way.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

MS2extra.

Assuming your fuel didn't change dramatically between starts, it should have stored the target AFR from the previous drive cycle between starts.

It's really an 'afr + ignition blender'.

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

Now obviously, if you run the tank down to empty on e85, and refill with super unleaded your first 30 seconds or so of running might be wacky

But I'd assume that would happen on my 2012 GMC as well.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Or you can spend $350 on a Megasquirt and $5 on a flexfuel sensor in the junkyard

Like I said before, my build is ready. I just can't get e85 within 50 miles of my house.

-- Joe

camaroyoungster

I plan on tuning the stock computer and always running e-85 except if i swap out a chip for regular pump gas which will save me alot of money.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Nothing wrong with doing that. I used stock computers for years before I finally tried the MS.

-- Joe

camaroyoungster

How does that work for you? I heard it doesn't have the check engine light if something goes wrong.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

True. If a sensor goes out of whack, the software will simulate sensor input to limp you home. On a stock ECM, if a sensor goes out of whack it may set an ALDL code, and then limp home.

The check engine light isn't really an issue for me. I enjoy the other functionality of the MS. Makes life tuning much easier, and has lots of features, supports CAN, and will interface with almost any engine/ignition combination you can throw at it.

-- Joe

Drkhrse89

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the info. I am going to have to read deeper. I still need to get my car running before I go that direction. Living in MN, I have access to E85 whenever I want. I have 3 gas stations within 2 miles of my house that have E85. Depending on if I figure it out in time I might just start with 9X octane and then move to E85.

camaroyoungster

What is CAN?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus
So for example. You want to buy a generic automotive heads up display which supports CAN. You connect it to the megasquirt, set the device ID, and it will read all of the gauges from the megasquirt.

Or for example, an aftermarket transmission controller that supports CAN, will take it's RPM and other inputs from the MS using the CAM protocol.

The data rate of CAN is 1mbps, which obviously is a heck of a lot faster than RS232/ALDL.

-- Joe

camaroyoungster

Wow that is pretty neat. So pretty much the MS, HUD, and transmission work together wirelessly? or are the wired together? And it works with electronically controlled transmissions like 4l60e?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Not wireless, they have to be wired. But it's a standard communication protocol.

But yes, you can mix and match brands of electronics because they all communicate.


If a carb is a telegraph, a stock ECM is a rotary phone, and Megasquirt is the latest Iphone/android

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Yes and No. The GM 427 ECM in the mid-90s trucks did and still do much more than the MS untill the MS3 came out. It controlled the 4L60E/80E. How refined is the MS code for controlling this transmission? Anyone running a $3-$4K 4L80E trusting the MS code that anyone know of?

MS is an interesting system that has some applications that it fits well.
GM does also.

MS3 costs what with trans control? $700. Why not just install GM 427ECM if the engine has dizzy or V6 module. Or install GM SEFI PCM if wheel/COP ignition along with HPTuners for $500.

I think MS is a great system. The price is out of control for a system that people code for free.