ZZ3Astro

I've been off the radar lately (and on the water!) but I'm still driving the Iroc on occasion. It's been to various cruise-ins in the past couple of months. Drives great and makes good power, but I'm sick of the exhaust leaks and I want more power. My issue is the car needs several things right now and if I move forward I will put another $4000 into it. I'm not really sure I want to stick that much more into it. Decisions...

Anyway the headers are pretty much a given at this point. I just can't decide how to route things. I already have too much heat under the hood with a simple log manifold on one side and stock on the other. I have the crossover and downpipe wrapped, as well as a turbo blanket. I cannot imagine how much heat there would be with a full set of headers on both sides. Of course I have to keep the AC and everything else working so I'll have my hands full.

This thread marks the beginning of the effort. I've got a vacation coming up in a few days, after which I will be pulling the hot side parts off and begin the process of building a new config. Stay tuned!

sailtexas186548

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IO1!

have fun, the build is the best part IMO, I already know how I want to redo mine.

Street Lethal

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Subscribed...

ZZ3Astro

Sail, yours turned out really nice looking. Hope you get it sorted out soon! Are you thinking about making changes to the headers and crossover already?

I'm very tempted to start pulling things off today. If I can get some visuals and measurements in before my vacation, I'll have almost two weeks to think about it while I'm gone!

My goals are ZERO leaks, a balanced appearance that compliments the TPI's tubular look, under-engine crossover and of course more power. It would be very nice to have some level of plug access for a change too!

Wastegate experts, a question: What happens if I put the wastegate on the crossover tube? Will it cause an imbalance on backpressure that will harm performance and/or the AFR? There just isn't much room near the turbo (where it is now) and it would be much easier to come off of the crossover somewhere down lower.

Do most of you run a gasket between your headers and head? Do you use anything like copper RTV? I'm looking for no leaks this time around. Exhaust leaks suck in every way.

Street Lethal

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I tailored mine in the very same fashion as the turbo buick guys at first, as most of them don't even run exhaust gaskets. I pulled mine on the SBC to see how it would work, but they leaked very badly w/out them, so back on they went w/copper RTV. So far it is holding up...

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

Uh... yeah

Well it really depends on when/how my motor lets go. If it goes in dramatic fashion and I have to get a new block/rotating assembly ($$$$) I'm gonna sell off the current set up, and build a similar one but with wayyy more cubes and wayyyy more turbo. If it spins a bearing, something else minor, or I decide to pull and forge it then I'll stick with what I have for a while. I want to mirror my current setup on the other side and run twins next.

I use copper RTV, about 1/8" bead is what is recommended on the turbo forums, on all of my sealing surfaces - I have zero leaks it's great, I'll never use gaskets again for exhaust

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

why not sell it before it lets go so you can recoup some money out of it? once it lets go it may not be worth anything at all. and could tear up a turbo. or more.
just a thought.

DIGGLER

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you can get away with no gaskets for sure if you have a cast iron head and a cast iron exhaust manifold. both need to be nice and flat. if memory serves correct, some of the older oldsmobile v8s didnt have exhaust gaskets on them.

once you throw aluminum heads and thin steel header flanges into the mix, that may go out the window.

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

I'm not planning on running it till it blows, Im hoping to get a decent amount of tuning experience on it, then forge it so I 'll know what I'm doing with the fresh motor. But if it does let go I have a plan hahaha

ZZ3Astro

Hmm interesting.. I have a copper gasket but that didn't work out so well. Maybe I need that plus the copper RTV. Only thing is I still need more power than I'm making, and the turbo log is the most likely restriction at this point. Otherwise it would be interesting to try RTV and see if it seals up. Too much trouble to take it all off and experiment though. I'll just be sure to use the RTV on whatever I end up building for it!

Street Lethal

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Injecting water pre-turbo will extract more psi if the log is holding you back...

project89

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i dont use gaskets at all , i just use copper rtv,

if u qwant to use a gasket use a steel or copper shim type gasket coated with copperseal/rtv on both sides

standard gaskets even when coated with rtv will still burn out after time

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Theres a good bit of heat, trust me My turbos stuck out the hood so there was SOME venting and I have twins. Now 2 full tubular headers, and alot more piping in my engine bay and UNDERHOOD. This will be interesting...

No expert here, but I dont think it will be a big problem if its sized large enough. The whole hotside should reach a equalized pressure I would think so it doesnt matter where you extract flow. May want to ask around on the turbo forums, as there are a few wastegate manufacturers there.


Kinda hard to get no leaks but what I used that worked ok for awhile was copper gaskets with that high temp copper RTV around each side of the port. It sealed well for a while but my bolts backed out a bit and it started to have minor leaks...but they were minor.

I'm trying Remflex gaskets now with no RTV. Will see how they hold. Turbo flange joints i used standard steel shim gasket with copper RTV and it was fine. Now I skipped the copper RTV cuz I was out and will see how it holds.

Just rtv by itself only seems to work well if both surfaces are extremely flat and smooth.

Ed1LE

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83 Crossfire TA

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Under engine crossover? through the stock crossover location or in front? I've been looking at that and realized that there is a corner of the K-member that gets in the way of any tube going up/forward on the passenger side of the side of the engine and I'm not sure what you can really get in there. I'm hoping 2.25" will fit through there, which real world is MORE than enough to make serious power on a small block.

I'd be really surprised if it did, lets face it, most of these setups use pressure to drive the turbine, so if you open any place in front of the turbine, on one side or the other it _should_ vent exhaust from both sides, or effectively lower pressure at the exhaust ports on both sides of the engine. I'm sure someone out there will say that the right way to do it is to put it right before the turbo inline with the exhaust flow, and I'm sure that would be better, but I'd bet that the real world difference is not that significant and I doubt that you'll find anyone that's tried it that could actually document a problem (I'm sure you'll find someone that will say "I think I had a problem") (yea, not the most concrete answer but let me put it this way, I'd do it if i saw a significant advantage in packaging)

I'm actually much more concerned about actual sizing, and that's more a question of not knowing the products out there right now, anyone have suggestions what's a good wastegate for a single turbo small block that's not super expensive?

RS Chris

If your still thinking about a routing setup, you might check out the pics in this thread. Seems like a clean setup.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...echnology.html

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I agree 2.25" is plenty for most small blocks if proper piping techniques are used. That is good fitment and no "cheated" cuts. I see quite a few large pipe cheated cut designs around here that don't flow well but look like they should.

Energy (heat) drives the turbine. Putting the WG in the wastegate is in most cases. It does create an imbalance. All of the energy from one V8 bank will go into the turbine some of the other V8 bank will get leaked out the WG. Therefore, one side works harder. Does it really matter for most setups?......no.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Needs an oil pump. Looks like it was expensive. Not much gain over a rear mount. At that point I would just go rear mount using standard exhaust which is much cheaper and cleaner routing.

ZZ3Astro

Yep 2.25" is what my crossover is now. I'm going to be sticking with the smallest tubing I can get away with before the turbo. The D port header flanges are for 1.625" primaries. It should all work towards keeping a good high velocity flow. Here is a pic of how my crossover tube connects to the existing manifold:



My thinking is to keep it pointed forward instead of turning up, until it gets further forward. It would Y into the turbo flange about where the wastegate is now. With some creative header design, I hope to keep the plugs more accessible than they are now. I will probably have to change my oil return to go into the pan instead of the blockoff plate.

One thing that is certain... this is a very tight area to stuff a 76mm turbo and all tubing, while keeping the AC! And I plan to borrow a 76 so I can *try* to lay this out to accept a 76. If the 67 doesn't work out it will be a simple matter of trading up.

vortec350s10

I'm glad to hear you are still at it. As far as the wastegate location goes, I've read a few places that it is not desirable to have it on one side only/crossover pipe. I would guess it would not be a major problem, but obviously not balancing flow could have a slight effect on power or how the engine breathes. I've heard that boost control may not be as consistent either, but I can't think of why that would occur.

I'm not sure what you are currently running for motor mounts but the solid ones from summit (moroso I think) that I ran on mine freed up tons of room for exhaust clearance. Check out some of my pics if you want, I ended up changing my exhaust routing plans after seeing how much extra space they gave me. And I can't even notice they are solid mounts, pretty sweet deal if you ask me. 2.5" pipes fit on mine no problem. And I can reach 7 out of 8 of my plugs without header removal. Keeping the A/C though, that's a whole nother animal!
I ran no gaskets and just copper rtv on my headers before going turbo, now I have some cheap copper 3 layer gaskets and they are holding up great so far.

ZZ3Astro

I just got back in town from vacation. I'm glad I didn't start pulling it apart yet because I've been going through withdrawals. In a little while I'm going to go drive it and I think I'll be starting on the headers this weekend. Still need to clean up my garage first and find a big AC to put in the window. I've got a design in my head now but will have to see if it will actually fit.

Good idea on the solid mounts. I had some on my 86 and they do give nice clearance compared to the stockers.

ZZ3Astro

I started out today all motivated to get this header build going. I'm sitting here tonight very discouraged after removing the turbo and trying to see where it might fit a little forwards and towards the stock battery locaiton. It's very tight between the radiator and strut tower. I can't move the turbo too far towards the corner because it gets rid of good air inlet options. If it is too close to the engine, the down pipe angle is all wrong and it hits the AC lines, water lines and transmission cooling lines. If I keep it in the stock location I'm basically stuck with a restrictive log design like I have now. About the best I can hope for is to build a new log with an improved crossover merge, larger wastegate capacity and no leaks. That may not be so bad of an improvement, and would certainly be cheaper than proper headers.

I guess I'll have to sleep on it a bit and sort things out. Looks like very limited options at this point, short of something radical.



High enough to clear AC lines = too high. Note limited radius for air inlet tubing as well.



Further back towards engine leaves better radius for inlet tubing, but downpipe angle sucks. AC lines limit options for T4 flange position.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

sorta how mine are mounted but mine are abit further forward in the battery box

ZZ3Astro

I've been doing some more with the Iroc this week and I might have a workable solution that is a bit of a compromise. It would be a log rather than a full header, but I don't think that is going to be a huge limiting factor on my 500 rwhp goal. What I'm looking at is to eliminate the merge into the log as my existing one is. To get better access to plugs and flange bolts, I would raise the log up about 3-4 inches higher than mine is now. The merge would occur in front of the log where my wastegate is now. The turbo would sit about 1/2 way between the current location and the position in the photo above, plus it would be almost parallel to the engine like the original location. The crossover tube would stay low until the merge, giving good access to plug #2. The downpipe would run below the log instead of starting above it as it does now. I haven't measured yet, but I'm pretty certain this would open up the possibility of a 4" downpipe as well.

So far my measurements look good for improved wastegate
mounting and larger turbo capacity. Oh and much less $$ to build! Lots of things to be checked before I can confirm this location but at least things are looking a bit better now.

project89

iTrader: (1)

check out thes epics yes its a v6 car i did but they should help
log on passenger side full header on driver side

plenty of room for an air filter and it clears all the ac lines and ac heater box

ZZ3Astro

Good stuff.. thanks for posting those.

Here is where I'm at now with the mockup:



You can see the original 2.25" crossover tube below the PVC log. I plan to follow this same routing and then build a new pipe along the frame rail that will then, along with the new 2.25" log, Y into a single 2.5" just ahead of cyl #2. You can also see the spark plug access is simple when there is no downpipe in the way.



This view just has the old DP there to show the amount of room available. Easily a 4" DP would run through here. The crossover tube below would actually angle upward as soon as it clears access to plug #2. I just had a piece of PVC there for sizing reference. Turbo would not have this much angle in the final build.

BLKIROCZ87

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project89

iTrader: (1)

i figured thos epictures would help.

that type of setup works etreamly well, on that car in the pictures spoolup was lightning fast and it makes a ton of power.

when u build ur log try to angle the 90* primarys going to the log slightly in the direction of flow it will help out a bunch if u can do it

what are u doing with ur old turbo setup ( hotside) ive been debating on ditching the twins on my car for one big single

ZZ3Astro

For the angles, I'm looking at turning the 90's slightly forward. The amount would be limited by access to the flange bolts. On top of the 90's I would put 45's, so the net angle to the log would be 60-65 degrees. Since this would more or less mean I have primaries, I am thinking it would be worth the trouble to build a shorty header for the other side of the engine. For now I might have to keep the stock manifold, as my budget just went to crap for the rest of the year (I'm soon to be an ex).

The old setup... may end up selling it but not sure yet. Depends on how things go with the house.

project89

iTrader: (1)

just do the 90*s stright up with 45*'s on top, it will be more then enough.
when i did that v6 car i built that mid lenght header on the driver side , was well worth the effort. the only advantage with reusing the stocker is it will retain more heat.

other then that a true header on the driverside will make it easier to make mor epower

ZZ3Astro

How important is the final transition into the T4 flange? On my existing log, it basically dead ends at the end of the T4. The wastegate is at the dead end. So the flow has to turn 90 degrees up and into the turbo or if the gate is open it flows straight out the end.

What I'm looking at is a pretty tight turn of 100-110 degrees from the Y to the T4 flange. I found a short radius 90 that might work, but if I could build a sort of 'box' that the Y pipe flows into, with the T4 flange on one side, it would be a much more compact transition. I don't have much room to swing things around, although I could angle the Y pipe towards the accessories, then swing it around with a tight elbow, but that would just add more degrees it needs to turn. Probably 120ish. Could easily be able to do it with two short radius 90 elbows chopped down, just not sure how much space it will need.

project89

iTrader: (1)

put a 90* bend on the end of the header and put an angle cut on the flange side if u need more of a turn. this will get the smothest flow into the turbine.

that v6 car has a 2.5 header and u can see the 90* on the end of the log has plenty of room to be cut down without using a cheated cut .so u should be able to do the same thing on ur setup with the v8.

if u need a super tight radus bend buy a donut or use pie cuts and make ur ownbend that way

that bend is also the best location for a wastegate, just rember when air goes around the bend there is more of it on the outside radius so the wastgate should be on the outside radius

also here is how i did the merge on the v6 car

ZZ3Astro

It's been a couple of weeks so I thought I'd better do an update. The update sucks. I am getting divorced! Watch out for online gaming is all I will say. It only took her three months from meeting (online in a game) to deciding to move across the country and leave behind everything we've worked for for the past 13 years!

I'm keeping the house and my toys, but that means my expenses are going to be the same while household income drops. Also there is a big tax hit as I'm filing single with no dependents. Probably going to sell the Monte and some other toys I don't do anything with. This should get some Iroc money in hand.

Right now I'm guessing another couple of weeks before I can justify ordering tubing for this manifold.

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

That sucks man, really sorry to hear

Street Lethal

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Three months? If this woman threw away 13 years for a three month chat with someone on the other side of the country, then that isn't saying much about this woman at all. You deserve way better than that, and you WILL find her. Are there kids involved...?

Drac0nic

GL man, do what you have to. This is the sort of thing you need to take some time for your self, if it means the projects are your time than so be it. If not, don't sweat it. Real life has to come first unfortunately.

ZZ3Astro

Street Lethal, it is very out of form for her to do this. She was the most level headed girl I'd ever met. Down to business and smart as a whip too. Things have been fairly normal for a long while too. We've always immediately moved past our arguments and from my point of view the only issues were things life threw at us, not something the other person was doing on purpose.

I can't exactly post details here, but suffice to say you would be completely shocked if you knew all of the facts in this case. I guess females get mid life crisis too maybe? Mid life torpedo for me. Step daughter (16) being forced to go with her. I told her she's welcome here any time if things go weird there.

Also she was with me at the 99 Third Gen Gathering in OKC. That's a long time ago so you can see the adjustment I'm having to make once she's gone.

I'll get back on this project ASAP guys.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I realize that my first comment about this was a little harsh towards her, but the truth is that thirteen years is a very long time, and time will help everything get sorted out. Although you may not agree with her actions, support them because she sounds a little confused at this point in her life, and if you want her back the last thing you would ever want to do is push her even further away by saying nasty things. To leave someone after thirteen years for someone only known for three months sounds more like she is trying to teach you a lesson, either that or like you said she is going through a mid life crisis. Sometimes time apart is the best thing, and couples need a reminder of what brought them together in the first place during that time apart. That is the messed up part about life, you can build a strong relationship with someone, but the world around you will constantly test it whether it comes down to job loss, money loss, as this is where frustration sets in, the arguing ensues, and the resentment kicks in. Whatever happens, just keep a positive spirit, no grudges, and if things don't work out... just walk on.

ZZ3Astro

After assessing the financial impact of this whole divorce thing, I've decided to put the Iroc back together as it was. Technically I've got all the mockup info I need now and can at least order all the parts needed (when the budget supports it). I have enough things to deal with in the coming months that I don't need a header build project + not running Iroc over my head. I can mock up the parts on the old engine and tack everything together before I have to pull the Iroc back off the road.

Meanwhile, consider this derailment a real world test of Ultra Copper RTV, which I will be using to try and get rid of some of this exhaust leak issue I've been suffering since first putting this old manifold on the car. We'll soon know if it works at all, and for how long.

As for the breakup thing, she moves out in two weeks. I figure it will take me another month (at least) before I can order the parts and another month before they would likely be fit to the Iroc. Still figuring out the whole income vs expense thing. Doesn't look very likely that I'll need to sell the Iroc, although it is a possibility in the future picture.

ZZ3Astro

And it lives once again. RTV seems to be helping so far. Nice to be back in the driver seat.

project89

iTrader: (1)

copper seal works great, i use it inplace of my turbo and downpipe gaskets , and also on my header to head but on the header to head i still use the gaskets u just put the copper seal on both sides of it. every since i started doing that i never had a gasket or leak

ZZ3Astro

So I put a T in the wastegate line and now it makes about 18 psi. After driving it that way for a week I decided to data log it and work on the tune. It was going to 10.1 AFR lol. So during the tuning efforts of course I had to run it hard, causing heat build up in the engine area. As I started getting closer to the 10.9 that I wanted, the car suddenly started falling on its face in high boost. AFR went to 15-16. I loaded the original tune back in and it was still 15-16. After parking it for a day, it's back to the original 10.1. I loaded the new tune in and it's where I left off.. about 10.6:1. I never managed to get it to 10.9-11.1 before the fueling issue started.

Obviously this car has some sort of serious, temperature related fueling issue. That's even with the Stealth 340 pump. Now option B is that it's actually an ignition issue, causing a false lean condition due to misfire. Not sure how to narrow this one down. I can eliminate fuel pressure issues with a gauge and a friend, but it's really difficult to get the car in this condition. It requires a combination of hot weather, hard driving and some luck. Even if the fuel pressure remains high, I cannot eliminate the injectors as a factor. I guess have someone follow me and look for black smoke? If no smoke then we know its ignition. Perhaps an exhaust temp gauge would be best to narrow this down?

Yes it is GREAT at 18 psi. When I get to 22 - 24 psi it's going to run how I had hoped it would!

ZZ3Astro

Well so far, except for delaying the manifold build project, divorce has been great. I've got cash in the bank, cash in hand, and more action in the past week than in the all of 2012 before. LOL Oh, and the house is spotlessly clean for once.

Haven't done much with the Iroc but I have been driving it a good bit. Made a video to update my subscribers but it has some 17+ psi acceleration in it:

ZZ3Astro

Looks like my lean when hot problem has returned. It requires the whole drivetrain to be heatsoaked, and then it will lean idle on a hot start every time. AFR goes 17-19 and idle surges. Several hard revs will sometimes clear it and it returns to the 13's. Full boost with the car heat soaked = complete leanout to the point of backfiring. Other than that "minor" issue, it's dialed in to 11:1 when its not heat soaked and runs pretty nice.

Finally got a video going to a higher speed than I usually get to. Unfortunately it didn't want to put the power down till 50 mph, so it's more of a 50-105 video. Love these roads in Mexico. They just feel faster for some reason! The trees being closer really gives you a sense for the speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwWk5...ature=youtu.be

Drac0nic

This may be silly, but what's the voltage like when you're at WOT? Does it vary? I'm wondering if you've cooked something in your alternator due to proximity to the turbocharger.

ZZ3Astro

I'll have to look at some of my old data logs, or I'll do a new one. All I know is the floorboards have to be hot for it to happen, and that takes some sustained driving on a hot day. Another video, albeit short and low res...
Stopped by a friend's shop today and when I left they demanded that I wake up the sleeper. It's amazing how short 1st gear is on these 700's, especially when you're spinning. I just did a mild stall and hammered it (probabably to my usual 85% tps). Car is a lot of fun in this trim. Needs tires bad.

ZZ3Astro

After studying numerous data logs and videos of my car, and talking with my friend who has a turbo TPI setup, I've concluded my biggest problem is too much stall. I still plan to build the manifold/header, but I'm throwing away all of the potential torque this engine has by spinning it so hard from the get-go. Also my tq converter makes a ticking noise at idle and I've always wondered why it has so much slip. Just trying to decide on a brand. I currently have a Vigilante 9.5". Yes I know they can restall it for under $300 but I want one to install as soon as the transmission is dropped. Looking at:

Precision Industries Vigilante 9.5" - build time 2-3 days. Optional triple disk lockup allows for full throttle lockup. Cost about $1140 to the door with 3 disc. I think $900 with single disc. 2400 lowest stall speed

Yank 9.5" - single disc only. Build time 6 days. No triple disc option but he said the 700 can't handle lockup full throttle anyway Cost $850 to the door. Minimum stall is 2800 though and I think a 2400 is wiser because the torque is going to push it up another 600+ rpm

PTC - called and left message. No call back so far

Edge Converters - will call... site has minimal info on it

Circle D - lowest advertised stall speed is 3000


Right now it seems like Vigilante is the way to go, mainly because they will stall it tighter which is good for the limited rpm range of my engine. I don't have a shortage of low end anyway.

Thoughts?

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

What's the turn around time for the restall? $300 vs. $900 - $1140 is a significant difference. Plus, if there's an issue with the current one, they'll be able to detect it and let you know or fix it then. Otherwise, not sure you can really sell the current one, at least for any worthwhile profit. If the current one isn't repairable or worth fixing, then you know and you get a new one. To me, $600 is worth letting the trans sit out of the car for a couple of weeks and using that $600 elsewhere (especially since you were talking about budget a few posts above). Vigilante is a nice converter, just sold my 2400 in the spring when I started my T56 swap. I think with the TPI set up, you want to keep the stall speed limited to 2400 otherwise you're really limiting your RPM range.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

call greg at fti. he did my converter, and i love it. he has also been doing a ton of converters for the gto guys. hes very good at what he does. also, i think he restalled my 9" converter for around $300-400.

ZZ3Astro

I believe it was a couple of weeks turn-around time. It is an issue of having the car sitting at my friend's shop, outside in the weather and exposed to kids and bikes. Not gonna happen. Much more worth it to me to pay the extra and have it back in a few hours so it can spend the night in my garage. I'm not gonna do it in my driveway either. Been there, done that too many times in my life. There is also the variable of the old one having a problem and needing additional parts/repair.

I'll look into them also Diggler.

Thanks guys