DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

mailed my converter to fti, when he recieved it he cut it open and gave me a call to talk about options. once we were finished talking, he said "ok, well im going to make the adjustments and take a lunch. when i come back, i'll weld it back together and get it on its way back to you." got it 1 or 2 days later, no joke.

Drac0nic

Stall is subjective. If you can get them to give it to you the "K" rating is FAR more valuable.

http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/Torq...ter%20Tech.htm

"For example, if a motor has 400 ft-lbs. of torque and stalls a particular converter at 3,000rpm, K = 3,000/sqrt{400} = 150. Since we know K = 150, we can predict the new stall speed if torque is increased to say 500 ft-lbs by rearranging the equation to rpm = K*sqrt{torque}. In this case, the new stall would be rpm = 150*sqrt{500} = 3350. This formula isn't perfect. It won't work if the engines have wildly different torque curve, for example. And it won't tell if a particular converter will hold together under markedly increased torque. But it gives a decent ballpark estimate and serves to illustrate a basic aspect of torque converter function. For most street and street/strip, you probably want a stall in the 2,500-3,500rpm range. But do not buy an off the shelf converter thinking it will give you the advertised stall unless it has been proven to do so on an identical setup. Speak to the manufacturer first to be sure you are getting what you need for your particular combo."

The "K" for your converter may or may not be accurate the way you describe it I bet you'll get it cut apart and find bent fins. Just saying.

Drac0nic

Hey any progress? Just wondering.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i think i saw some update videos on his youtube page, if u dont have the link let me know and ill grab it for ya

ZZ3Astro

Well I have decided to cancel my trip down to Tampa. The car is back to smoking a bit and I've got exhaust leaks again with the manifold. You can smell the oil burining in the exhaust. I'm just going to do what I started back in June and get to work on several things at once.

1> Figure out why it is smoking.

2> Send off the converter for restall

3> Improve the oil pick-up somehow

4> Build the new headers I started working on in June

5> Make a harness for Big Stuff 3 (and preferrable switch to it while its apart)

My guess is one of the rings has a problem sealing. Once I get the manifolds off I can do compression and leakdown tests. Curious to say the least. I did everything right and checked it multiple times, and then again during final assembly.

I'm waiting to get my boat back in a couple of weeks. Once I have that to play with I can live without the Iroc running for a while. I'm guessing it will be down for six weeks or so.

ZZ3Astro

Ok update time.. I've been doing lots of thinking and discussing the situation with some friends that know turbo engines way better than I ever will. My conclusion is the rings got washed out back when I was having all of the fuel pressure issues. The electronic pressure gauge was reading low (because of the injector pulses) and I kept turning up the pressure and testing things. Also during this time, for some reason, my MS2 had an exponential timing error which resulted in the timing being 9 degrees less than indicated at 5000 rpm. This caused a lean O2 reading (when in fact all of the fuel hadn't burned yet), which resulted in my increasing the fuel. Perhaps if the engine had more miles on it at that point it wouldn't have mattered, but the bottom line is the rings did not seat properly.

I took it to the drag strip last weekend and this weekend. It was very consistent (as usual) running yet more 7.87's and 7.92's, albeit now on 2.0 60 foots where it used to run that on 1.84 60 foots. The additional boost is pulling better on the far side, but causes more wheelspin in the close half of the track. MPH is pretty dang decent, staying in the 94.x range yesterday. I'm not too far off my goal, as a 1.55 should be possible with slicks and suspension tuning. This puts me in the 7.42 range. Very happily the only street radial car at the track in the 7's. Usually the only one that drove there and enjoyed the AC while doing so.

Still waiting on my boat. Hoping to start wrenching in the Iroc next week.

Drac0nic

Any updates? Was wondering if you had gotten anywhere on the ECU swap yet. Something I'd look into when you do it is if you can get a transmission controller in it. Not that you want it now essentially with a freshly built 700R behind your engine, but the ability to go to an 80E when you get fed up with it is always a luxury that is nice to have.

I've got the Megashift in. The feature set on it looks great, you can even pull timing by gear/during shifts etc. but at the same time the rest of it is a rant I'm not getting into right now.

ZZ3Astro

Sorta. I have the exhaust system off now but still need to finish cleaning up and organizing my garage. I just finished doing some remodeling and there are some things left in the garage at the moment. Hopefully that will be mostly cleaned up tomorrow and I can start taking more things apart this coming week. The car sounds simply amazing driving around with the open downpipe. It also goes right into overbooost protection as I found out yesterday.

Definitely would like to end up with an E transmission at some point. Big Stuff has an add-on for $800 to do that. Not cheap but.... never seems to be!

Drac0nic

Yeah, the Megashift is about $250 and it's what I'm messing with now. If I can get it to work the feature set looks really great. Timing per gear, retarding timing during shifts, etc. For 800 they'd better be integrating some awesome features into the trans controller, otherwise you can get a standalone one for 1/2 the cost or do a manual VB for way less. I'd expect at least the above, if not more.

If you get a chance look into Pro EFI as well. My buddy's Lexus ran it and let me tell you the safety features are AWESOME. It will pull timing when there is a major FP drop sensed. He had the vacuum line pop off the regulator, there was a huge bang as the system cut timing but the engine wasn't phased. I think it's in the price range of the BS3 but If I were going to plunk major bucks on an ECU it would probably be the one right now.

ZZ3Astro

Quick update.... I have a bad AC Delco spark plug! I just put new ones in when I had the turbo setup off in August. The car developed a really bad misfire just before I removed the exhaust system (I think I removed it in October but can't remember!) and the first time I drove it with no exhaust it went to a dead cylinder. I finally isolated it to Cylinder #4 and replaced the wire to no avail. Pulled the plug and it looked fine but won't spark! Put one of the old plugs on the wire and it sparks! Repeat, lather, rinse, same results. No more AC Delco plugs for me.

I haven't driven the car at all since the dead cylinder thing which was around the first of November. A friend is in town from Texas and I wanted him to get a ride and that's what motivated me to find the source of the dead cylinder.

Life has been hectic lately and I just haven't had the time and motivation to get started on the Iroc teardown. Also money has been a bit questionable this month and I don't want to be stuck with it apart and no funds to re-assemble. My garage is getting better and I'm pretty much finally ready to start pulling parts. This weekend should be the last drive.

project89

iTrader: (1)

it happens form time to time dont matter the brand u can get a bad p-lug from any manufacturer , i still preffer the ac delco standard plugs over anything else for my boosted engines

only thing else i would trust would be a set of ngk's

ZZ3Astro

Just took the Iroc for another spin and took video of the tach going straight to 6000 at full boost. I think the breaking up sound I'm hearing every time I remove the exhaust is actually the beginning stages of valve float. It shouldn't be turning anywhere near 6000 rpm in the middle of third gear. This converter is just crap and I cannot wait to send it back for a checkout.

Since it was still cold I was able to get it to stay locked up long enough to do a third gear run and at 4000 rpm, 1/2 throttle, the car pulled harder than it ever has in third before. I wish I could go wide open in lockup! I'm thinking about sending the converter in for now and putting it back in so I can drive the car before I do the new headers. Depending on the results I will know how much work to put into the header design. It will only cost about $350 and some busted fingers to do the converter restall.

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

good to hear your sorting it out!

where's the video!?

ZZ3Astro

There is a video but the only relevant part is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...O5W5Efw#t=346s

I'm in second gear and I ease into the throttle, then as soon as I lay into it hard the RPM shoot right into the redline, plus overboost protection kicks in (I turned down the wastegate but not enough!) because no exhaust is on the car right now.

ZZ3Astro

My friend who builds lots of turbo cars urged me to try PTC. Last time I called them I had to leave a message, which was not returned. This time I got right through and they were more than willing to spend time discussing my car and the issue with the existing converter. I ended up ordering from them so maybe next week I will have it in hand. That same friend is my go-to guy when I'm too lazy to lay in transmission fluid doing my own R&R. I figured he'd be more motivated to do it for me if I listened for once lol

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That's what I'm running Steve, your going to notice an immediate difference...

92firebird 305

Steve your car is bad *** we gonna have to race soon go to the drag strip again since im camed and tuned hope to have headers soon in my 05 gto well be a good race i hope .

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

yes, the converter is doing you NO favors. Very trick display you have to the right. What is it and how is it made?


PS, I love your build!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Ptc in my car. Going back to them for restall for the new combo. First time i ordered it stalled 1000-1400 rpms higher than what i wanted but i think that was partially because we both didnt expect the motor to make as much torque and hp it did at low rpm. Restall on that was spot on but now i need to open it up another 500-1000 rpm again for new combo i put on last winter and this summer lol

ZZ3Astro

Thanks NufNuff.. that would be a PLX DM-100, which now I think they only offer in the more expensive OBD-2 compatible version. I sort of love it and hate it at the same time, but it certainly gets a lot of comments when people see it. I didn't want to bring anything modern into the visible part of the car, so it is nice in that it blacks out when it is off. And then putting the Iroc logo on it for boot up makes it 'ok' to have in this totally stock classic ;-)

I've been mad at this converter for a long time. It just took me getting to the point where I didn't really care any more to take a chance on a $450 converter coming from a $1200 converter. We'll see, but it can't be much worse than the way this oen is set up. Hoping the ticking noise goes away as well (it started the day I put this converter in).

Might be ready for track real soon Brian. They haven't billed my card yet so it hasn't shipped today. I'm going to go ahead and put my exhaust back on for now because I'm expecting a lot of tuning will be needed with this new converter.

92firebird 305

Cool Steve cant wait to ride in it again it still a very badass car .

ZZ3Astro

Orr I believe that.. I saw you were putting down over 1000 ft lbs.. wow! Impressive stuff!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Alot of that was likely spike from converter but it still held 800+ beyond peak towards peak hp. Thats why it was so unstreetable. Any full throttle blasts below 50mph in any gear would be instant tire smoke. New heads cam bleeds off so much torque it can actually hook up in lower gears. It ran similar 1/4 mile on lower boosts and more raceweight, but felt much stronger on street since it hooked. Much more fun combination imo

ZZ3Astro

it's here!

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

AWESOME! get it in!

ZZ3Astro

Almost done! Hopefully have it back on the road by Monday night!

ZZ3Astro

Did I say last Monday night? Arghh. still up on rack. Shop has been tied up with a problem car with a ***** owner. Hoping to get it finished in next couple of days.

ZZ3Astro

Got it back and it still sucks. Only slight improvement except that it spins more readily now, but it's never under 4500 rpm in boost. If I lock up the converter at 2200 and ease into the gas, by 3000 rpm it is a rocket ship. Of course single clutch lockup won't hold the power so that isn't an option. I asked for a converter that would be tight at 3000 at 600 ft lbs and I got one that is loose to 4000 at 400 ft lbs. Not happy. Same converter I had essentially, just lighter in the pockets.

Am I expecting something that cannot happen? If so, I should have just built a 7000 rpm engine or just gone LS.

project89

iTrader: (1)

send it back tell them its not right

ZZ3Astro

It does pull better in third than it did before. However I did a fluid change with the converter (something I'm always leary of doing) and now the 2->3 shift over revs during the shift instead of locking right in at WOT. Not good and never been a problem until now. I thought perhaps air in the valve body but it never straightened out. Fluid that came out was perfect and pan was as clean as we've ever seen for a 2.5 year run.

project89

iTrader: (1)

check tv cable and filter make sure the filter didnt start to drop out.

u could always rig up apresure gauge and check the line presures , what trans r u running now?

ZZ3Astro

I might have the shift issue resolved.. looks like the fluid settled more than expected and it was almost a quart low. No leaks.

The car is pretty insane in third gear now. Definite improvement all around, just not as much as it needs. For what seems to be about a 5% improvement in the RPM range, it feels like a 10% improvement in power to the ground. Hopefully the next converter will get it right.

Drac0nic

Since you're in Florida (don't have to worry about cold weather) you can always get some Hy-tran and flush with that. It will tighten up the converter a few hundred RPM.

Have you contacted them about a restall yet? I thought most converter places give you one typically.

Glad to hear it's starting to go the right direction.

ZZ3Astro

Just got it back Friday night but we discussed restalls when I ordered. They actually offered to restall my Vigilante for around $150 since its the same housing as my new converter. That's what I will send to them and they can take the info they have on the one they sent and make the changes accordingly.

I only had two scenarios in mind with this change. The new tighter stall was going to make the car into a rocketship or it was going to prove my engine just sucks. Never crossed my mind that they were going to send me a converter that was pretty much the same thing I already had.

ZZ3Astro

And the video is up....

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Very nice choice on the Holley EFI at the end...

ZZ3Astro

Yeah I'm glad that came out before I got a BS3. I can finally put my 4L60E housing to use!

Talkd to PTC today and they were more than willing to make changes, even offering to send me another and then I can send this one back. Problem is he said to keep lockup, the best they can do is knock it down 1000 rpm below what it is doing now at boost. This means it will flash to 4000+ rpm at full power. My torque peak is in the 3200-3400 range so this dog won't hunt. I'm a bit disappointed about that because I stressed this detail in the ordering process. I'm not going through another swap to find out it's still too loose. It seems like I need a 12" converter instead of a 10. Not sure where to go from here. Now I have two expensive converters and neither are capable of stalling at a low enough speed for my setup.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

man have you tried another tach in the car? i swear it doesnt sound like its turning 5 grand like it says...... maybe more like 4? when you hit it, it zings right over to 5500! just doesnt sound like it, to me but i could be wrong.

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

looks like fun

you say in the vid the tach reads 10% high, when it reads 2200 its really at 2000. Well at 5500 thats really closer to 5000. And you say its stalling to 3k, which at 10% high would be 2700. I would get another tach, or have your data logger open in the car and watch the PRM that way

ZZ3Astro

Confirmed via laptop, that's how I know about the 10% error. Yes I hooked the laptop up with this new converter as well. Also I have plenty of data logs showing it going down the track in the 5's and you're right, it doesn't sound like it. I guess with the turbo corking up both sides of the engine its hard to tell from the sound. If nothing else, the fact that it was only running 94 mph is also indicative of the problem. There is no way this car should be trapping under 100 and probably should be closer to 104 with 18 psi.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

does the trap speed/logged rpms/gear ratio match up when you run it through a calculator? in other words, does it make sense for the car to be going 94mph at 5k with a 3.27 gear?
i would figure to run 94mph it would need around 400-425rwhp. -ish. cant remember what your car dynoed....

Guest

Post a real rid....I.E. 1 of run "running it outt gear..."/wink-

ZZ3Astro

Last dyno was right in the middle of that rwhp.. 410 or 412 I believe it was.

Haven't really looked at the speed vs rpm vs tire circumference relationship on this car with datalog vs timeslip. Just taking some basic calculations though, stock 245/50/16 tires at 5000 rpm and no slip through a 3.27 rear in a 1:1 gear (third) would go 116 mph. On video I have it at 5000+(5600 on the tach) rpm at 60-65 mph not spinning. In another part of the video it shifts from 2-3 and gets to 4700+ (5200 on the tach), hitting third gear at 55 mph, the rpm freezes at the 5200 tach indication and the speed increases to about 70 before I let out (see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...f437Eek#t=260s basically acting like a higher rpm stall would do. And had I stayed in the gas it would have stayed close to that RPM until the speed got quite a bit higher.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

and you want to retain the tpi intake, correct?

ZZ3Astro

Yes keeping stock tpi intake and L98 aluminum heads. Basically it's out of breath after the low 5000's and I'm fine with that. My friend who had an identical setup in a 89 Vette said his was out of power after 5200 (compared to the power it made in the 3000-4000s) and that's where mine stalls to. I think if the engine could make power to a higher RPM this converter would slip even higher, but since the torque starts coming down the converter finds its happy place.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

its crazy how loose it is now, and they will only be able to lower it up to 1k rpms.... while other non lockup 9"-10" converters can be put behind a 1200hp nitrous engine and have that amount of stall. comparatively speaking, your car doesn't have much power.
where does your friend's setup stall to? what kinda converter?
wonder how a stock converter would work in your car?

ZZ3Astro

He ran a cheap B&M Holeshot 2400 and said it was in the 3000's at 24 psi. He dynoed over 600 rwtq. I wasn't too excited about using that converter but I went ahead and ordered one. When we installed it, there was a severe vibration issue http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...EY_BjdY#t=150s and the car was undriveable. He had to fight hard to get a refund on it too, so I ended up getting the Vigilante 2800 (used). No balance issue but once the new engine went in you can see how it does..

He has another 2400 Holeshot on the way now and said he'd put it in to see how it does. Might as well let him try that since I can't seem to get a call back from PTC and can't ever catch my guy available. Paperweight anyone? LOL

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

street car right?



JK (kinda), I cant imagine how frustrated you are. I am running a similar longblock and I feel power drop off over 5k FWIW

TurboedTPI

I couldnt be happier with my 2800 stall ArtCarr billet converter.

ZZ3Astro

Well the B&M Holeshot 2400 comes in tomorrow. Not sure when he'll have time but I guess that is the next step. If nothing else, it should give me a real good idea of what rpm the power really comes in at and goes out. Then I can spec out a replacement with absolute numbers. Whether they actually achieve those numbers or not depends, of course. I'll dyno it as well so I can provide an accurate torque number. I'm expecting a minimum of 600 ft lbs rwtq at 18 psi.