ZZ3Astro

So my goal is to run 6.99 or better in the 1/8 mile. With the stock engine/heads/cam and 10.5 psi I went 7.89, so one full second would get me there. This engine was tired when I went 7.89 and I think a fresh engine alone would put me in 7.7 territory. To get 6.99 (10.85) or better in a 3700 lb car I will need 450 - 500 rwhp, or about 575 crank hp, so that has been my goal.

My original plan was to run ZZ3/L98 heads until I started looking for a used set. Prices were crazy so I decided to just go with a new set of AFR's. Also I convinced myself that the angle plugs wouldn't clear my manifolds. Then I ran across a deal on this Monte Carlo with a ZZ3 engine in it so I picked that up. Recently found out that L98 angle plugs will work (supposedly) with the stock driver side manifold. Now that my engine has started acting up sooner than planned, I'm thinking about trying the ZZ3 heads as it will save me a lot of money and thus, waiting.

From my research on TGO, it appears I can expect to make about 320 hp/415 tq (crank) with TPI on a stock ZZ3. I will have to go to forged dish pistons and reduce the compression and horsepower. Between reducing compression and changing the cam, I expect 300 crank hp with no boost.

I'm not sure what the stock zz3 piston relief volume is but I believe the stock head gasket is .051". That with a typical deck clearance and headgasket diameter and 58 cc combustion chamber shows about a 10cc relief piston to achieve 9.8:1. I would be forced to go with something like a 21 cc relief and that would put me in the 8.7:1 range. Thats on the upper end of where I need to be. I found some 24 cc pistons but they are pricey ($600). These would put me at 8.4:1 and would be ideal to run 16-20 psi.

So with the right cam I have 300 crank hp + 16-20 psi of boost for about 575-650 crank hp. That's based on .85% efficiency in the turbo system and at 10.5 psi I was seeing better than 90% on my current setup.

Opinions? Any thoughts on the ZZ3 heads being a fairly light casting. What about the stock valves, would they hold up? Small combustion chamber effects on boosted application?

BANDITSBC

i had a zz3 years ago, gave the car to my dad and he hydrolocked the engine. People talk about I beam and H beam rods,,, but it's those S Beam rods you need to watch out for! The block looks great still. Crank is still beautiful. I had 150 shot on it for quite awhile and it was fine.

I was never overly sold on the heads, i could be wrong. I felt all its power was in the cam. Back in the day when 300hrs was big I beat alot of people with it!

GO FOR IT! (or are you in the garage now?)

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

If you have them and they're in good shape then run them. Honestly, I don't see the advantage with them over most iron heads WRT to making power (I would honestly perfer some mildly worked iron heads), but there is a slight advantage in weight...

WRT to your goals... lets face it, people have gone faster than that with a stock engine, cam swap and single... it's more a question of tuning and not breaking things before you do it...

What exactly is setting that goal? is it just a number you pulled out of the air or something more?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

have the heads machined for screw in studs if not already there and put in good springs with a fairly healthy cam and make sure the head deck is flat and go for it. I think they are good little heads. Will take more boost to make power compared to a set of AFR's or aftermarket higher flowing stuff but it should get you there.

I thought ZZ3's were 9.6 to 1 with the heads which aint too bad for boost. Alittle high for the boost you will likely need to run to get 6.99 but possible with good ring gaps and good tuning along with alot of meth injection. If its higher than 9.6 to 1 then I would get fresh pistons (forged) and go with closer to 9 to 1.

ZZ3Astro

My old 86 ran 6.80's and I haven't had anything as fast since. It's a real good feeling that cannot be duplicated in a car running 7.50 or 7.90. And that puts the car in 10 second territory which is good for braggin rights I suppose.

Yep 9.8:1 I believe. I'm shooting for around 8.5:1 compression with a good set of forged pistons (24cc) and a relatively thick head gasket. I believe the stock zz3 uses a .051 head gasket. The heads are 58cc. Not AFR's by any means, but perhaps quite suitable to my car's goal of being very mild and stock like.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

they should already have screw in studs...

ZZ3Astro

I got the ZZ3 apart last night. Looks good inside, no ridge and crosshatch still visible. There is a ton of carbon buildup though. That carb must have been insanely rich. I'm bringing the heads to be cleaned and checked. Shouldn't need a valve job but I am going to upgrade the springs.



Looks like I have the 'pink' rods and not the PM rods. I think they'll work fine for my use. Will research this some more though.



And the heads...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You can take a grinder to the chambers while your at it...smooth out the casting around those spark plug holes for better detonation resistance

TurboedTPI

My aluminum L98 heads seem to work fine for me. Ive pulled a 6.8 @ 104 mph 1/8th.

ZZ3Astro

TurboedTPI, love that car man. It is a true sleeper too and I'm sure you get some surprised people at the track on your first pass!

I read your GMHTP feature some time ago and forgot that you were running L98 heads. I'm thinking about having some work done to the exhaust side on mine before I put them on. Are you running stock rocker arms or roller?

TurboedTPI

Thanks man, i am running 1.6 full rollers rockers. I did some minor work to the exhaust ports on my heads too. pretty much took out any casting imperfections and smoothed the entire port. I cant complain about them

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i would just put it back together and get to work on the car. it would be soooo much easier to go 6.9's if you could get rid of some of that weight... and also get it to leave.

ZZ3Astro

Had the block checked today.. less than 1/1000th wear. They are going to clean it and hone the cylinders to see if the minor scratch marks on cyls 2 & 3 go away. If so, .000 pistons it shall be! And bunch of money saved not having to machine the block. Of course I'll pay on the other side, which is buying .000 forged pistons as the choices are limited.

ZZ3Astro

Heads are finished up, except final lapping and reassembly. Very pleased with the results and maybe it will help things a bit. I asked him to focus on the exhaust side ut he went ahead and did some chamber polishing as well and the intake radius.

I've got the block back also so now I'm just waiting on time and funds to order the pistons/bearings/etc. Also I'm seriously considering sticking with the ZZ3 cam. It's got a 112 deg lobe separation and that's the only thing making me hesitate on using it.

ZZ3Astro

The original TPI 350 is now retired. It was still running but I could only drive a few miles at a time before it would overheat. Last night I started the removal process, beginning with the turbo system. This week I'll get the accessories and intake off. Hoping to have the engine out by this weekend and then I can finish up some under-hood paint work. Then its just a matter of coming up with about $2000 to order the remaining engine parts! Donations accepted


Just shy of 149k miles and it finally comes out. The front two cylinders #2 and #4 tested to 155 psi.



The whole turbo system, minus the intercooler hardware!

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Lookn really good! Nice work on the heads.
BTW the rods are Powdered Metal..

ZZ3Astro

Ah that's right.. the pink rods have a balance pad on the cap and the PMs are just rounded. Well that settles that. Well I think they'll work out fine for my intended rpm range.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

What manifold is that? I'm guessing that it's upside down in the picture?

Why do you have the chambers polished on only the exhaust valve side?

ZZ3Astro

Not really sure what manifold it is.. all I know is it's out of the mid 80's and think it to be a Gates design. Yep it is upside down for the pic

The combustion chamber polishing was something extra my polishing guy did when I asked him to smooth out the 'bump' under the spark plug. I had asked him to focus on exhaust flow. I was only expecting bowl work and when I went to get them he really went over the top for the price!

ZZ3Astro

Well I just ordered THIS:



Maybe I can finally place in a car show! LOL Doubtful but it will sure look nice with that polished intercooler tubing!

ZZ3Astro

So I pulled the original engine today. Heads came off and revealed surprisingly good condition to the block, pistons and even the ring gaps were not so bad (the ones I could see). As close to no ridging as I've seen too along with nice crosshatch visible.

I only found one suspicious area: on the metal head gaskets - the top outer water passage on cyl #8 was missing material above and below the hole. Could be some sort of corrosion because there was an area on the next cylinder's passage but not close to the bore. The lip around the edge of the cylinder bore wasn't etched in any way, so I dunno.


The bores look in good shape for the miles. They have a rust color 'tint' to them that I cannot figure out.


Plenty of deposits and buildup but no obvious issues.


The strange area. This hole should be pencil sized.


Huge oil 'lava flow' like I've never seen before. It's only in the front right corner. A clue of some sort?

Drac0nic

Did you ever run race gas? If not I'd think you lifted a head because of the discoloration. How'd the HGs look when you cracked it open? I'll be curious as to what the pistons look like after they're pulled.

ZZ3Astro

Head gaskets looked great... I was expecting some etching somewhere either between cylinders or between a cylinder and coolant passage, but everything looked fine except that 'corroded' area in the second to last pic.

I only ran 93 but with a very conservative tune. The discoloration you are referring to, are you talking about the orange/yellow to the cylinder walls?

Drac0nic

Yeah, that discoloration. BTW, have you thought about sticking a cam in this short block if everything looks good then sticking the L98 heads on it? Yeah you'd bump compression some but it would be less than the flat tops in the ZZ3. That is provided everything else looks good.

ED:TRWs are still only around 400 bucks a set and would put you about where you want to be with their 21cc dish. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TRW-L2441F/

ZZ3Astro

Originally I did think about just putting heads on the stock bottom end.. but I'm building this to take trips in (out of state as well as to the drag strips) so I'd rather have a new bottom end for reliability. Since I'm not going overboard on power or rpm, the ZZ3 bottom end should work out about perfect for ~600 hp. Then that frees up the Iroc's 2 bolt block for a splayed main 383 I have planned for the Monte Carlo which the ZZ3 came out of. Hoping to see around 850-900 hp out of that one with twin 60's!

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Did it get hot just cruising? Did you check the Tstat and water pump?
Have you thought about putting a truck 5.3 liter in the Monte Carlo. Since it needs an efi system already might as well do the stock 5.3 with a megasquirt and 15PSI for about 600-700 HP and not much money.

ZZ3Astro

Well I hope I checked all of those things before I pulled the engine out

The LS/LQ idea was my original plan for the Monte. It still may happen that way, but sticking with Gen 1 means I get to spread the project out as money allows. Otherwise it will be stuck for a long time in its present state (slow, 305!).

ZZ3Astro

I think I've got the springs and cam pretty well sorted. I talked with Comp Cams a few times today. They will have to do a custom grind to get what I need. Here is what they are recommending:

Duration 224/224
Int .537" Exh .530"
Lobe Sep 114
Centerline is assumed at 109

The duration is a bit longer than I have been thinking would be best for my plans. He said they could do 218/218 on that grind as well. I'm worried about my launch with too much cam. Opinions?

Also I found this cam from Lingenfelter:

Duration 215/220
Int .534" Exh .544"
Separation 114
Centerline assumed to be 109

Fairly close but a split pattern and less duration.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

i've got to find the cam card for the custom grind I have in the basement, it used comp xe lobes with a 224/224/114, but that should end up with a 110 cl I think (that was just what I came up with for a previous project that I never used).

I was thinking about using it in my current 305 project but I'm leaning towards a xfi 280 (230/236/113).

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

With stockish L98/ZZ4 heads, 224 is about as big as you want to go but if you still plan on using TPI, that may be abit too much. Should pull to 6000 easily, peak in the high 5's area with the right intake. 218 would be nice too. Thats probably what I'd try, 218 deg or so so you can shift at or just under 6K. Should make plenty of power with its good lift. Then again the slightly bigger cam could make a little bit more power and require a 1-2psi less boost to make same power as the 218 cam. May work out like that.

The 218 or the lingenfelter 215/220 would be abit better suited for ported/aftermarket big tube TPI type setups and also work well on a shorter runner setup.

ZZ3Astro

I'm thinking 218 sounds like a better match. I want this to be stockish and also get good mileage when in cruise. Obviously there is a mileage impact with the 224. But, I suppose another way of looking at this could be future implications. Should I decide to get a little crazier some day and change to AFR heads and a different intake, the 224 cam with 1.6 rockers would really make it go!

What do you think the peak RPM difference would look like between the 218 and 224? I want to keep this a relatively low rpm setup since I am not running fancy rods (this may change before I put it together though). I was hoping to stay below 5600 rpm.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Oh i'd say 100-150 rpm difference in peak, maybe if that much. With TPI, both are likely to hit peak at the same time and the larger cam may hold onto power alittle better a few hundred rpms after peak rpm. May not make much of a difference in hp with TPI, but i'd give the 224 a slight advantage. With a short runner intake, the 224 with an extra 100 rpm would likely make 10-15hp more...not much of a difference. Depends on the lobes too, there can be 218 cams that outpower the 224's with difference in lobe shapes and the actual valve events. Like a 218 installed with 2 deg advance may rival the 224 installed with 4-5 deg advanced.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Don't that this as an argument, more of a question, why do you say that?

Can, worms, opened...

that depends, all the cams you're talking about have different profiles. You don't list what cam lobes that custom grind would be using, it even sounds like it might be using a different intake an exhaust. The fact is that for a lot of what you're discussing the .006" duration could have as big an affect on drivability as the .050, and it's not uncommon for modern lobe designs with .050" numbers in the range you're talking about and still have .006" numbers closer to stock 80's cams. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the 2 cams that I mentioned have less .006" and more less overlap then some of the ones that you're considering.

There are also reasons to run the milder lobe designs. I'd say a lot of this depends on what you ultimately want to do with the car.

Not knowing what your really want to end up with and not knowing what lobes the 2 custom grinds you mentioned are using, I would sort of lean towards the Lingenfelter cam, though I might consider the 219/219 one, of course that will probably have more advertized than most of the Comp lobes will.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well based on the head flow which is similar to LT1 heads, but 10% less in most cases, most 224 shelf cams with advertised durations in the 276 area fit those heads well. Your only gonna beable to get a hp peak around 5800 on those heads, bigger cams may beable to hit 6000 rpm peak on these heads but hp flatlines all the way out to 6500+ rpms and gives up alot of average power under the curve. Not a problem if you gear/converter the car to operate in the 5500-6500 rpm span but for a street car with mileage concerns and driveability, the additional average power from the smaller cam helps. Theres alot of custom grind 220's deg cams on LT1 heads making power numbers that the shelf grind 230's cams make. With good ported heads that can feed a motor above 6000 rpm, those 230 deg cams peak closer to 6500. So you are not getting the most out of the cam with stock heads. With heads that are too small for the application, you tend to need more duration and overlap to make power that a better head/smaller cam setup would, and even then the small cam setup drives much better and makes good torque down low.

With TPI, its long tube runners force peak earlier in the rpm range...4000-5000 for most setups. The stock cam will peak at 5100 if the intake runner is shortened but only 4200-ish with stock TPI and high 4000's with aftermarket TPI. This is why siamesing runner length helps so much because you extend rpm range and get the most out of the cam.

218 deg at .050" will push peaks in the 5500-5800 depending on heads/intake and lobe design. Heck the 268xfi can peak near 6000 and carry good power above that with great heads and good compression. 224 with similar lobe is 5800-ish on decent heads, so there can be a 100-200 rpm difference. It all depends on cam design too tho like you mentioned.

Then again, a turbo setup may help extend rpm range too so the bigger cams could come in handy up top. A guy on turbo forums thats well respected seems to think that turbos dictate rpm band moreso than the cam to some degree. I think they work together because a turbine side thats too small that has high backpressure can limit rpm range no matter how big the cam, but if sized right, the cam will control the rpm range.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

For decent power, fuel mileage, and boost I would go with the Elgin/Crane/CompCams 218I, 218E, 110CL. That is my favorite for street turbo setups. It is cheap and has good street manners. With the right size turbine it makes good power.

ZZ3Astro

Intake just arrived from Arkansas Polishing. Love it!

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

wow, they do nice work. I just butchered a TPI intake with the TIG welder last night to fit some vortec heads. Something about the TPI intake is that it just works too good in some cases to replace with anything else.

ZZ3Astro

I will say this though.. He shipped this intake completely assembled. TPI is one dang HEAVY intake! I cannot believe how much this thing weighs! 37 pounds!!

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

In what cases... I always felt they looked great, all sorts of things you can do to them to make them to go with any underhood combination, but didn't really work that well and are a hassle to work on

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I like them for low to medium rpm and great low end torque. I think coupled with a 206* to 220* hyd cam that they work well. Put some boost to them with a smallish to normal size turbo and they pull nice and help the engine live a long time at low rpm.
I have 2 engines running the TPI and only pulled one off 4 years ago to install new gaskets because of a coolant leak. Each one has been on for over 10 years and I only pulled one once so it didn't seem like a hassle to me.

Drac0nic

Are these going to be similar to the one that was in the FS section a while back that was done with Epoxy? Just wondering would love some pics.

ED:having to yank the thing a coupla times has made me really think about doing something like a carbed intake. At $20 a set for the upper gaskets that's rather obnoxious compared to a 4150 gasket or a TB gasket. The ability to change injectorss without yanking the upper would be nice too.

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

DROOL! man turbo + TPI is a great looking combo

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I welded on some strips of alum at each intake port. At the coolant ports I built it up with two passes of weld. All of the ports were gasket matched to the FelPro 1255 vortec gasket.
I am drilling the heads now but I sure don't like how the outer 2 bolt holes will end up breaking into the water jacket if I use 3/8"-24 bolts. I am thinking of using 5/16"-24 bolts for the outer end holes and 3/8-24 for the inner most 6 holes.
I will post some pics when finished. It is getting 52#/hr P&H injectors. Should be good for about 600 - 650 BHP. The target is no more than 550 BHP.

ZZ3Astro

On the home stretch now! Just ordered the rest of the parts which should be here by tomorrow. Only thing left to order are the head gaskets. I'm having a hard time finding them for 4.000 bore. By them, I mean good ones like Cometic. Will give them a call today.

I went with SRP 24cc inverted dome pistons. These weigh 481 grams vs the ZZ3 piston's ~530 grams. That's about 10% difference - 49 grams lighter. This would put me in 'overbalance', which I have recently learned about. Somewhat desireable it seems in high rpm engines. Will have to talk to the machine shop about this to see if I need to balance it. Will suck if that is the case because of the delay. I'm trying to get it driveable by Sept 9th (at least enough to put on the trailer for a gathering I want to go to.)


For rings I went a little overboard. First I looked at the Hellfires and TNT's. Reading up on the materials, it seemed using those with a stock production block would result in a relatively short block life in terms of wear. I started looking at plasma-moly rings and ended up going with Total Seal TS1 which have a gapless second ring. They were about $250 which put me over budget!

Also went with ARP head bolts and flexplate bolts, an SFI flexplate and sealed power CH series rod bearings. I couldn't see a need for rod bolts since I'm keeping this a low rpm combo.

And finally, the engine bay is done!

ZZ3Astro

Everything has arrived except the head gaskets!

Most importantly....

ZZ3Astro

Issues on the build... TCI sent me an external balance flexplate MISSING a counterweight! I ended up ordering a B&M to replace it with. So that has delayed the resolution of the next issue:

Balancing! You will not believe how much weight difference there is between the ZZ3 pistons and the SRP's. Even more so that the SRP's aren't really all that light.

ZZ3 Piston 602 grams
ZZ3 Pin 162 grams
ZZ3 Piston + Pin 764 grams

SRP Piston 489 grams (113 grams lighter)
SRP Pin 132 grams (30 grams lighter)
SRP Piston + Pin 621 grams for a savings of 143 grams or 4.6 ounces each

If everything worked out perfectly, I'd have everything back by next Friday and I would have Labor Day weekend to assemble and install back in the car.

ZZ3Astro

Slightly ahead of schedule. Balancing was finished early. Waiting on the heads which are due tomorrow afternoon. Bottom end is assembled. Still need to torque everything to spec and install the cam & lifters. Should be all done with that tomorrow night. If the heads get finished I'll have the engine completely together Saturday and probably have it sitting in the car sat night. Hopefully at least..

ZZ3Astro

Bad weekend so far. I got the engine in the car last night. Before getting to the intake, I started thinking about the way the head gasket looked. It didn't seem 'right' and after looking at the part number I ordered, I figured out that I somehow ordered the Brodix SBC gaskets. Off with the &*@#*&# heads in-car now. At least I didn't have the top end all together.


Valve covers are dingy but I do like the look of the factory covers in black. Might just order a new set or paint these. I think polished aluminum would be overkill.


Oh well, at least it's east to do this in third gens!

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Awesome build-up. Looking great so far!

I know you said that polished valve covers may be over-kill, but I bought these fabricated aluminum covers for my engine that may go well with your engine:



Keep up the updates!

ZZ3Astro

Thanks.. I looked at those exact covers and was wondering what the intalled height is compared to stock. I don't have much room because of the turbo mounting position.. Also I was concerned because of the AC compressor lines, which are pretty close to the stock covers as well.

I forgot to mention the other reason the weekend was so crappy. I was actually on schedule to have the engine in Saturday, but it turns out Comp Cams sold me a retrofit cam (12- series) instead of a factory hyd roller step-nose cam. So I spent a whole day searching for a solution, which was a new timing chain and a cam button. Then I spent a good part of the day grinding the cam button to get the camshaft endplay where it needed. Good thing I bought the cast timing cover.