ZZ3Astro

Let's see if she holds!!

Planning for the track tomorrow if everything holds together between now and then. This is the third day I've ran 15 psi and so far it's acting pretty normal. I need to address my PCV valve because I know some of the boost is blowing back through it now. I don't think they were intended to have 15 psi on the suction side!

Did a no brakes 'power skid' today and it went right to the top of second, then the car caught up with the tires.. pretty fun! It's still not all over the road. It will spin in second on some surfaces but pretty hard to get it to break loose.

Got the AFR locked in right at 10.9-11.0 at full boost. I'm sure I could get away with more timing, but as I've already broken my first rule (not running over 12psi without the knock sensor finished!), I'm going to leave the timing alone. Any detonation at this boost and it will be finished.

My only wish is to have a good day at the track, run a 7.7x and drive it home without any new leaks/knocks/rattles or smoke!

90-irocdx3

iTrader: (4)

Thats amazing that motor is staying together with that much boost! What kind of power you putting down to the ground with 15psi? Sounds awesome!

freaky

where is your timing right now ?
this makes me think 10 lbs. on my 305 might hold for awhile .
good luck ...

cam406406

iTrader: (1)

it will hold my buddy turbo tpi runs more than that

ZZ3Astro

Yep that 305 will hold up forever on 10 psi and probably just as long on 15 if you keep the tune in good shape.

My ignition looks like this at 205 kpa (15 psi boost)

rpm adv
3100 11.2
3700 11.8 (has been very sensitive to advance in the mid 3000 range)
4300 15.2
4900 17.2
5400 18.8

I am eventually going to rescale the rpm points to allow more resolution in the 3000 range. I've experienced detonation issues around 3300-3500 at lower boost levels so I'm not taking any chances right now. at 155kpa and 3100 rpm, I'm still only at 12.5 degrees and attempts at over 13 has produced detonation. Luckily the majority of my pass will be in the mid 4000 range where I'm able to run more aggressive timing.

I'm pretty sure I could get away with 2-4 more degrees but I'll wait to try that when I've got a forged bottom end!

Here is my wheel spinning takeoff from this morning not much to see but it was fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-kZcLmRmAM

ZZ3Astro

Thanks.. it's fun to drive around!

Last dyno session was at 10.5 psi and it put down a little over 290 rwhp. Best rw torque was 384 or 387. At 12.5 psi and based on the last 1/8 mile pass of 7.89 supports about 320 rwhp / 415 rwtq.

At 100% efficiency, 12.5 psi would increase power by 85%. So 185% of the stock 225 crank hp is 416. With a 18% drivetrain loss (auto) that calculates to about 340 rwhp. So I guess even though the numbers aren't huge, I'm in the ballpark especially with an old worn engine.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I put 15psi through a 2.8 and it lived. If a v6 can live with it I'm sure you're fine.

freaky

have you thought about running meth ? my last car (05 srt4 ) i run meth an a very agressive tune 30 deegrees of timing an 23 lbs of boost on a 2.4 liter 4 cylinder but it had forged internals . it will be winter before i have forged internals in this car but i'm gonna build the top end first an hope the stock bottom end holds up while i'm building a bottom end . great job so far keep the up dates coming .

ZZ3Astro

No thanks.. it's enough of a pain having to keep the oil and gas topped off! Which reminds me, I gotta add a quart before the track

freaky

good luck ...

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I'll bet you could run a lot more than that with a proper tune



on my stock long block (this pic is after a "mild" build) I ran 30 psi.

Whats the difference between a stock LC2 long block and your long block? Well, both have cast cranks, rods, and pistons. Your block has 5 bolts per cylinder, LC2 has 4, you have an actual harmonic damper, lc2 does not. Your heads flow at least 50 cfm more per intake port, your engine has smaller cylinder pressure spikes to produce the same power as a v6. You need less injector to make the same HP. Your main webbing is beefier.
The only thing working against you is 1 more point of compression.

On pump gas and IIRC 18 deg total timing I would max out at about 17 psi before knock set in with 91 octane.

Then I saw the light and discovered methanol. With a proper tune (24 deg total timing), wideband feedback, and twin m15 nozzles I was able to push the boost up to 30 psi on a TE45A (66 mm). With that I ran a 7.2 @ 97.5 mph with a terrible 1.7 60 foot.

Whats my point? Discover methanol. It's an amazing fuel. It will drastically lower intake temps (high latent heat of vaporization) it also has an extremely high Research Octane Number (RON) of 133 which is a better measure of detonation tolerance in turbocharged engine. The advantages dont stop there. Methanol has higher specific energy than gasoline, meaning, when combusted at best power AFR it contains more energy than gasoline at best power AFR.

You don't need to fill up the tank that often, much less than you filling up your gas. Run a check valve or solenoids on the methanol lines.
Look at what turbo buicks are running for timing vs boost. My examples might be a good reference.. just think you may want less timing since you have more CR. AFR should be around 11.5:1 as displayed on a lambda meter on a gas scale. Methanol can tolerate slightly richer lambda. Avoiding detonation is absolutely critical.

About your PCV issue... once you start upping the boost your rings will not possibly be able to contain the cyl pressures you are developing. On my engine this meant a ton of oil leaks. The other problem is that most pcv valves don't seal very well, so when you get on the boost, pressure will leak through the pcv valve into the crank case. This of course is bad for ring seal and aerodynamic drag on the crank.

What I did to solve this problem is modify an LT1 smog pump into a vacuum pump using a hobbs switch to turn on the pump at approx. 2 psi. I connected this to one valve cover and added a moisture separator in line. On the pcv side I added a check valve in line to the pcv, a moisture separator, and then the pcv valve. You really do not want oil getting into your intake tract, it will cause detonation. Motor oil has a very low octane rating.

I also suggest running pure distilled water and water wetter in your system so that in the event of a blown HG the carnage will be much less. Coolant eats bearings very quickly. It will also keep cyl temps cooler to avoid detonation.

When you really want to start having fun, ask me about a window switched 125 shot of nitrous to get things moving in a hurry

I still can't see any reason why the buick tuning concepts wont apply to your SBC. You just need to avoid detonation at all costs, watch AFRs very closely, and feed it the good stuff.

I could write a book on this stuff. I spent a lot of time really mastering the tune on my Buick. I'm just trying to share what I've learned with another O.G. thirdgen guy (still into RC helos? )

If you have any questions feel free to pm or post. If not, good luck with the build, keep those headgaskets alive.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Thanks, I might do that with my own setup. I was never certain if a smog pump could pull enough vac to be used as a crankcase pump.

Nitrous is magic on turbos and fun as hell! Although that's what ultimately led up to me melting a piston. It was fun looking back at the datalogs after a run and watching pressure peg almoast immediately when the nitrous came in. 1psi... 2psi... 15psi!!!

I had the nitrous progressively controlled through the egr output on my ecm so I didn't boil the 225 wide tires right off the wheels on launch.

ZZ3Astro

Hi Pablo! Looooonng time. I finally got out of heli's after I got the Iroc a couple years back, then got back into them when I had some spare cash and thought I was going to have some spare time. (Un)fortunately I've been so busy with work that my extra spare time hasn't happened so once again they sit unflown.

I'm not sure what the true hp limits are on a SBC vs Buick V6 but I've always considered the 3.8 to be stronger in stock form. Love those engines! Anyway my 350 is pretty worn with 147k miles on it, so when I have it apart I'm going to put some better parts in. I was going to a forged Scat assy but now I'm thinking about going cheaper on the crank and rods and saving about $1000. I don't plan on much over 550 hp and I think a Scat 9000 will handle that fine.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Nice, I like the progressive control setup off egr output. I run mine off of my GenII maf translator window switch. It's not progressive and I annihilate 28x10.5 et drags on the street. Its what ended up shearing the intermediate shaft in my 2004r.

The vacuum pump deal is a little tricky, http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/gen...-pump-how.html here is a post I made awhile back about it. Check that out first.


Good seeing you back Astro, I got into RC planes for awhile myself. Super addictive.
Good luck with the build. Might want to look into some cometic HG's and lower the CR a good bit. That thing is going to be a monster.

freaky

i run my meth off a boost activated pump my meth didn't start until 10 lbs. of boost but it took away what little bit of knock i was getting an allowed for more timing . the meth doesn't spray alot depending on your nozzles an how often you run wot .lol

ZZ3Astro

My friend trying to talk me into it.. no can do for this car. I'll go slower and do without. And I'm in WOT every few mins

lb9 GTA

I'm going to be running 14-15psi on my stock lb9 and I was thinking about running the PCV hose into the inlet pipe for the turbo after the the filter with a catch can between the valve and the pipe when I finnaly install my turbo. Could that work? Also what have you done with your EGR? I was planing on getting a block off plate to keep boost from going into the exhaust.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

With a pcv valve in line that won't work. There isn't enough of a vacuum drop in the inlet pre turbo to pull up the valve pintle. You'll also want a pcv functioning at idle and part throttle to keep the oil clean. I highly suggest setting up pcv on manifold vacuum with a moisture separator and check valve.

You should see the stuff that collects in my moisture separators. It's a mix of fuel, oil, and water (from condensation) not something you want in your oil.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

With a pcv valve in line that won't work. There isn't enough of a vacuum drop in the inlet pre turbo to pull up the valve pintle. You'll also want a pcv functioning at idle and part throttle to keep the oil clean. I highly suggest setting up pcv on manifold vacuum with a moisture separator and check valve.

You should see the stuff that collects in my moisture separators. It's a mix of fuel, oil, and water (from condensation) not something you want in your oil.


About the EGR, you won't have to worry about boost going into the exhaust. If anything the only thing would be exhaust getting into your manifold. The hot side will always have more p.s.i. than your inlet.

ZZ3Astro

What I'm going to do is run two PCV valves in line. They seal "ok" against low boost but not 100% as I understand it. My theory is the first one will seal partially against 15 psi and the second one will handle the remaining boost that makes it through. Today with the higher boost (I ended up hitting 17 while working on my boost control & wastegate settings) I'm seeing a bit more oil coming through the breather filter during a run. I'm not sure how much is just getting by the rings and how much is coming past the PCV. I'm sure some is coming through my worn out valve stem seals as well! Might have to invest in a catch can for the oil breather.

Not so good of a track day. I made a best of 7.9 at 88 mph, so I saw slight improvement in my mph, but the track wasn't hooking. I watched as a trailer car did a burnout and rained sand down the entire time. How does that happen?? I've never spun in 2nd gear at this track but I did quite a bit today on runs where I let off in first and got back in it.

Boost was being a b/tch today. I finally figured out after half a dozen passes that the wastegate spring needed to be tighted a bit. After that I was getting too much boost and had to work on my boost controller settings. Finally I got it to make 14.5-15 down the track, but by then the lean when hot issue showed up. Between traction issues and lean AFR I did a lot of 8.2x passes today! Still had a lot of fun beating up on a 10 second (1/8) turbo honda. Hopefully I have some video of those passes. I was on and off the throttle the whole run. Finally his friends got mad and were mouthing off when I drove past their pits. These cars were complete strippers, even the rearview mirrors were off and taped over to save power. However he did finally go 7's at 98 mph, so I guess it goes. Still, I'll take my car and run 9's over that thing if it ran 6's. Good times!

freaky

sounds like maybe you could benefit from some drag radials ...
at least you didn't bust your bottom end going lean right ? how lean did you get ?

ZZ3Astro

low 12's at 15-16 psi.. scary! I've gotten good about keeping one eye on the AFR gauge but sometimes it's hard when you have to keep an eye in your rear-view to make sure you aren't losing

Best run from tonight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9zQ84-32CY

sorry for the long lead-in on that video.. youtube is acting up so I gave up trying to shorten it.

ZZ3Astro

I think I've decided that the rings are just letting any additional boost get by.. either/or the rings and the valve stem seals. I have zero blowby during normal operation but it's spraying a good bit of oil from the oil breater during passes. That could explain why additional boost isn't doing much for power.

Must get started on the new engine build soon!

lb9 GTA

Thanks. What check valve and moisture seperator should I be looking for? I dont think I've ever seen eather of those for this application.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Awesome, that motor is doing well

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

im thinking cylinder pressure and torque produced would be more important numbers to monitor than the boost pressure. i would think you could go much higher on the boost. the biggest thing of all is to keep it out of detonation. run good fuel and pull a little extra timing than what is "needed".
boost is just the amount of pressure in the intake manifold, so to speak.

BANDITSBC

12psi on my 305 and it's still holding.

Michigan winters and Turbo's don't mix well. I'm interested to see what i'm running,, i figure somewhere between a 9-18sec 1/4 mile!

freaky

what turbo you running ?

Drac0nic

Glad to see you turned it up. Lets see what this beast can do.

In regards to the smog pumps, I am doing a mechanical one now with a custom bracket. I hope to have it on shortly, but I need to finalize the bracket. Shouldn't take much.

Besides that, the 350's key differences compared to the Buick is that it does flow more air. That means it's more efficient and higher cylinder pressures than the Buick coupled with a full point and a half or so higher compression it could be more sensitive. The chamber design is more efficient than the Buick heads which means that it needs less timing advance to make power.

Besides that the other thing I will say is that if it's a 60mm turbo you are actually looking to be in damn decent shape if it's comparable to a 60-1. You'd be smack dab in the sweet spot.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I did mention this, just about every stock chevy head out flows even ported Buick heads. About the chamber, a less efficient chamber like the Buick actually promotes detonation because the chamber does not help to homogenize the charge. I assume you mention sensitive with reference to detonation. The higher head flow simply means less of a restriction, I.E. less boost psi is required to make the same power per cylinder. This also reduces sensitivity because as pressure increases so does charge temps. The other downside is the large deltaP that occurs on a high boost setup. This makes transition tuning a little more tricky.

The increased CR does in fact increase sensitivity, but its a dynamic system with many things factoring in to detonation threshold. My personal philosophy is to run the least amount of compression that gives you satisfactory throttle response. Make up the power loss with more turbo and more boost. You can always intercool the heat generated by boost but you can't do that with the heat from an increase in static compression.

ZZ3Astro

Well I'm funded for my engine build now... just gotta decide which way to go for this first new engine for this car.

I've kicked around all of the head options and I keep coming back to AFR195's. The Procomps are available with straight plug I found out, and are a great price, but something just isn't sitting well with me about them. I see good reports and bad. I just don't want to buy twice. This car will be used for long trips and plenty of street driving. AFR's won't break when I'm 500 miles from home. I got 60-70k on my last set of AFR195's before I sold the car. Not so sure with the much cheaper Procomps. So this is my reasoning for sticking with the AFR idea, in case my detractors are reading this.

Now for the bottom end. One thing (among many) that has delayed my starting of this project has been the dread of dealing with local machine shops. I'm worried the engine won't be well enough to only go .030"... or worse yet they'll make a mistake and blame the block (been there). I started pricing out brand new blocks and ran across crated L31 (vortec 350) shortblocks for $1300. I would have to change out the pistons to forged and some good rings but the idea of a 4 bolt 000 block is very appealing. So I'm kind of on this path now:

350 cubic inch based on stock L31 4 bolt shortblock $1450 shipped
Forged .000 pistons $500
AFR195 heads with bolts $1600
whatever cam & roller rockers I decide on $550
headgaskets/seals/timing change/sfi flexplate $400

This $4500 combo is known to be good for withstanding 500 hp. I believe with my driving habits and relatively rare dragstrip visits that I can make it live with the occasional 600 hp at the crank blast.

Now I can disassemble my stock 2 bolt block and get it checked out at a reputable machine shop. They can do splayed mains. I'd eventually order a forged scat rotating assy and .030 over pistons. My experience with the L31 combo would give me direction on whether I wanted to go 355 or 383. Once this shortblock is done I can yank the L31 and transfer over the heads & cam and have a so-called "bulletproof" bottom end. I would have another $3200 into this shortblock assy, but I could sell the L31 shortblock to recoupe some of that or hopefully put it into another third gen (I want a turbo vert!) down the road.

Plan B would be to pull my engine apart and do the second phase directly to it. I might skip the splayed mains part in the interest of time and money. Another option is just to buy a bare .000 L31 block for $800 vs putting several hundred into machine work on the stocker. It comes down to a matter of time and dealing with machine shops and waiting for other people to do their job. Not fun in my area, believe me!

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

You are gonna have to deal with a machine shop if you plan on changing pistons. Forged pistons require more piston to cyl wall clearance than cast. To exacerbate the problem, a turbo engine that is going to be pushed hard needs even more cyl wall clearance. You'll need a machine shop that will measure each piston (they will all be slightly different) and hone each cyl to match. They'll also have to know how to hone for a set of moly rings. If you are really picky about ring seal they'll also want to run a torque plate. Personally I think they are a little overrated.

On my build I went .010 over the suggested piston to wall clearance from the piston manufacturer, and with the ring gaps there is a rule of thumb as well per inch of bore size that is different depending on whether or not you go with an N/A build or turbo. I highly suggest getting a dial bore indicator and a set of micrometers. I measured everything like 20 times and actually found some problems that even the reputable machine shop I used had to fix. It really helps when you know exactly what your measurements are rather than just trusting the machine shop to catch everything.

The other thing that you may want to consider is using steel shim head gaskets like Cometics (Not sure about the compatibility with aluminum, might consider copper). They "require" a very smooth surface finish on the heads. I didn't do this and just used a liberal amount of copper coat sprayed on each shim. I blew Composite style head gaskets the first time out with my build. Very frustrating. The cometics have been holding up like a champ. Might also want to consider some ARP head studs and main studs.

The other thing about changing pistons is that the weight of the pistons will be different. Now this might not be a big deal, this will change the balance factor of the rotating assembly. If your pistons end up being lighter this will move your balance factor up and you can calculate what your new balance factor is if you know the weight difference. IIRC some sbc race engines push the balance factor up to 52% or more. Normally its 50%. My buick uses.. IIRC 36% I used much lighter pistons and pins and didn't have my assembly spin balanced because lighter pistons don't induce a dynamic imbalance. It ended up moving my balance factor up to the mid or high 40% range which I wanted anyway. It runs very smooth. I did have the rods and pistons weight matched though because it was pretty cheap to do.

AFR 195s are killer heads. Arent the 195s just 190s match ported to a victor JR intake manifold? Might be cheaper to just get the 190s. I'd try and shoot for 8:1 cr.

I would also stick with a high quality elastomer damper. The viscous fluid dampers are never really tuned for a specific rpm range. I think they are kind of a scam.

Another thing if you want to get crazy would be to have the machine shop put in some piston oil squirters. The pistons have nothing cooling them and have to transfer their heat through the connecting rod. Heat=detonation detonation is the enemy. One way to do this is to machine a slot in the main saddles and then drill a hole directed at the back of the pistons. I wouldn't do the connecting rod squirters myself. Never did this with mine but I wanted to.

Just some thoughts, sorry for rambling.

ZZ3Astro

Good points Pablo.. I have a very trustworthy shop/friend/customer that I can utilize for the final honing & piston matching processes. The problem is he specializes in Fords so it takes an act of congress to get him to reconfigure his equipment. I think I can talk him into the little bit of work for this final step.

I've added another direct option to the pool of choices.. just outright buying the new block and building the good engine from the get-go. It works out to about $1000 more than the first build above. I won't get splayed mains (since the new block is four bolt) but everything would be brand new except the roller lifters. In other words about $5500 for the whole deal with Scat forged and the 195's. That bottom end should be good for 750+ hp without failing.

Agree on the dampners 100%. The rotating assy will be balanced but I'm having problems finding a balanced, forged scat assy with .000 pistons. In the case of the first build option though, as the pistons are not really a factor in the rotating assy I don't see a problem with just making sure they are all equal in weight (assuming the original pistons were as well). The only thing that matters is really the bottom half of the rods and the crank. Especially in the case of a 5400 rpm engine.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Yep I agree on the pistons, that was what I came up with on my build.

I'll bet you could put down some massive power numbers on a stock cast crank though I admit I have no experience in this arena with SBCs. I just look at buicks in the 9s on the stock cast crank that is tolerating greater pressure spikes (6 vs 8 to make the same power) and I have to think the sbc can handle more. I wonder how much of a problem the main caps are in moving around on the SBC. I had to girdle mine. My philosophy was that either you run a really stiff crank or you keep the main caps from moving around due to a flexy crank. I suppose doing both would really make for a super strong bottom end. I guess I dont know whether or not the stock sbc crank has a nice fillet radius on the journals. That would make a huge difference right there. Journal sizes would too. Don't know the sizes off the top of my head to make a comparison.

If you want to get crazy with the balance on that scat, an internal balance is best for the life of the crank. Granted you aren't gonna be turning a lot of rpm so I don't think it will be a big deal

The one thing I liked about building on my stock crank and rods was that I didn't worry about align honing and of course, my clearances on the mains and rods were all good (obviously the engine ran 1000s of miles with them beforehand). I was really nervous about having the block align honed because I've heard so much about shops screwing this up and doing it improperly. Not to mention the change in distance from the cam, worrying about main bearing crush, etc. Seems like a real pita to deal with when you are already measuring everything else a million times.

I've always wanted to do what you are doing so Ill be living vicariously through your build

RoadHammer

Here is some food for thought,

This is my engine that I am putting in my car and turbocharging:

SBC 383
8.7 compression
AFR 195 Eliminator Street port heads 65cc Straight plug
Scat Forged crank, 6" H-beam rods
JE dish pistons
Crower hyd. roller cam 215/221 dur at .50, .530/.560 Lift 114LSA
Powerbond SFI balance

Just put it on an engine dyno for break-in and couple of pulls. With a Single plane intake and 950 HP carb w/ 1" open spacer (dyno wasn't set up for EFI sadly) the motor made 434hp/450tq with no boost. Torque curve was absolutely flat. The dyno I was on reads on conservative side

I think with the mini-ram that I have for it, my numbers won't be that far off.

Drac0nic

If you're going to replace all the internals of the 350 you may as well think 383 instead. You're buying everything anyways. After that shoot for big, pump gas numbers on boost.

Gumby

The reason why would be clear when you look at the V6 engines.

How many cars that came with a 4.3 stock made BB v8s guys weep at the track when they came out?

The 4.3 is just a chevy 350 missing two, as the 3.8 is a Buick 350 missing two.

Now take that same info that make the 3.8 engines hell on wheels and port it back to the Buick 350.

Which Jim Burek P.A.E. ENTERPRISES did in 04, stock iron intake, heads and 2 bolt block, 551HP 506TQ, they then put forced air to it, no gridle or halo and got over 1000hp and it just asked for more. Last report the engine was running 9s on reg air in a 76 regal with 2:73s.

grab any gen1 2 bolt chevy 350 and try to make the same power with only a grinder to port stock iron parts. Heck Ill even let ya stroke it too since thats the only way to get any power out of a chevy 350, no need on the Buick, its a stroker motor factory. [just down on bore, which the 3.8s were not]

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Say what? off topic here but the only thing that makes a 3.8 buick "hell on wheels" is a turbo charger. Other than that, the long block is actually pretty crappy. Camshaft eater. Weak oiling system. 4 bolts per cyl. The heads are very crappy, I've personally flow benched them at 150 cfm@28"h2o, and getting past 190 cfm... good luck.
"its a stroker motor factory" ??? what? fyi 3.8 is a square engine. Stroke vs bore doesn't really mean a whole heck of a lot contrary to popular belief. There are plenty of dyno tests to prove it. More cubes is what matters most.
As for "cars" that came with a 4.3 making BB guys weep? Ever hear of a syclone or a typhoon? That pesky turbocharger making power again. FWIW, a 4.3 isn't simply a 350 with 2 cyls cut off, the oiling system on a 4.3 is inferior. The crank also has offset rod journals so that it can be an even fire engine. The same is true for a buick 3.8... so thats another potential inferiority to the sbc. Thanks for jogging my memory




and I agree with draconic, you can't go wrong with more cubes.

sprayd86

on a 4.3 the bore and stroke is the same as a 350 only thing its got 6 holes instead of 8 i forgot about the "z" motor that came in trucks. i had one in a 72 vega that went 12s n/a that was an odd fire motor and i had "x" rods and 350 pistons. but that was a 2 year run motor. 85 - 86 i believe. but it did exist! that was a 350 minus two holes.!!!

LB9Iroc87

isn't this thread about a turbo L98 Iroc not syclones, typhoons, and buicks? Juss saying, im swaping a LSx motor in my car this next winter but for the time being im building a setup nearly identical to yours, but on a LB9. Nice thread, sweet ride.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The castings are probably ok but I wouldnt run the components they come with. They are cheap for a reason. If you bought the castings have a shop do the valves/springs and minor port clean up. Still probably would be same $$$ in the end as a set of AFR's with the 8019 springs.
Another option is Profiler from Chad Speier racing heads. 1295 for box stock set with good quality valves/springs setup to your specs. 1495 for his mild port job to probably push them past AFR non comp ported levels.
Just some options for you.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-150100/

651 for somewhat premachined summit 383 block 1pc rear main, roller cam just like L98's, 4 bolt mains

TurboedTPI

Thats awesome, 15lbs! I remember one time when the vacuum line to the wastegate came off and i didnt know. I hammered it and looked at my boost gauge, it was past 30lbs lol. I let off immediately but damn was it flying for those few seconds haha.

ZZ3Astro

Interesting Orr... for some reason I didn't see those summit reman blocks before. As for heads, I kind of figured you'd say that about the hardware being crappy on those Procomps. Every option I look at puts me within striking distance of the AFR's. Even the Vortecs, by the time you put good valves and springs in them, not to mention the intake, you are not far from a set of 195's. And you're still iron north of $1000!


TurboedTPI, my highest ooops boost so far is 22.5 psi. I don't see much improvement beyond 12.5 psi, just more oil blowing out of the centerbolt holes and pcv vent.


So anyway it's off to the paint shop and then hopefully I'll make it to the grand rod run in Pigeon Forge in April. Most likely won't have the new engine in it by then but we'll see.

Oh and a new video of some tire destruction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HLQ155PKRQ

:-)

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You can talk to other guys using those heads, but from what I read the castings arent horrible but require clean up. I have read rocker studs breaking and the valves/springs being lower quality thats why I'd be hesitant to run them but I dont want to post misinformation. Just goin by reviews on respected forums. I'm sure you will also hear good reviews as with any product

Heck, even on the AFR's I swapped rocker studs to ARP's and changed springs to their upgrade 8019 spring and shimmed to get correct pressures for my cam. I didnt want to take chances

Talk to chad speier for a set of profiler 195's and see what he can do. He quoted me 1295 as cast which are good heads. Mild ported for 1495 with good quality valves/springs for either option. You could probably get AFR's for 1400-1450 shipped. I got mine from ADperformance. Then I added 100 bucks worth of spring upgrade and 35-40 for rocker studs...Others may have deals depending on who you talk to.

Whatever head you get its probably gonna cost somewhat similar once you get springs/etc matched to your setup. I like AFR's because they come with the option for a good valvespring and use 8mm lightweight valves which are easier to control at high rpms. If you dont turn much over 6000-6200 then dont need to worry as much about float with a conventional springs.

Depends on your goals man

ZZ3Astro

Well I like bolt on without cleanup. I'm pressed for time as it is with work and prefer to enjoy my time off driving rather than cleaning up ports on poor castings. Profilers look good but angle plug only from what I've researched. Sure I could build a driver side header to clear angle plugs but I could set my goals higher too and lose sight of my original plans.

I only need 500 rwhp and I'll be right where I want to be. And I don't mean it has to dyno 500 rwhp. It just needs to run high 6's in the 1/8. Maybe I'll want to go faster once I get there. Maybe. It is really important to me that this car remains 100% streetable, more than willing to go on 500 mile drives and so on. I just don't think that is practical beyond my 500 goal.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Let the boost make power. Off boost you know the cars are tame with turbos Really doesnt matter too much which heads you get with the boosted builds, they all will easily make 500whp if enough pressure is behind them. I dont think you will need a 383 either but those blocks seem like good bang for the buck deal either way you look at it. You may be 400-500 bucks machine work at a local shop after you have them acid dip, clean, sonic check, bore/hone and install new cam bearings on a old factory block. Just throwing out some options. Good luck with the build, i'm subscribed

ZZ3Astro

Crazy thing happened today. Was at a customers in the Iroc (had to meet with the paint guy). This lady that works there saw the Iroc and asked if I wanted 'another old car that was fast'. I said nah, but what is it? Turns out she's original owner of an 86 Monte SS. They want about $1700 for it. Well depending on the condition I know a ton of people that would buy today.

Then it gets crazy... She says yeah my husband took the original engine out (still has it) and put a hot motor in it that rumbles. She said it has "pink rods" and then the magic words: crate motor. I said hmm pink could be confused with PM, could it be a ZZ? Her face lights up and says YES that's it. So she gets him on the phone. They put the brand new ZZ3 in it, drove it about a year and a half and parked it. It's been sitting ever since, only started and driven around the block a few times.

The car is badly sunfaded. paint shot and interior is faded. But it's all original down to the radio. About 115k miles. Now my wife wants it. She wants me to build her a turbo TPI setup. I'm thinking rebuild the Iroc engine for it and give her my old turbo and the MS2. I'll put an MS3 in mine with sequential on top of the ZZ3 - after forged pistons and a cam swap of course.

Well, this is yet another option that has popped up. I know the bottom end will support 500 rwhp. Just a pain to do a forged piston swap but wouldn't hurt to go through the engine anyway.

Meanwhile mine goes to the painter on Sunday. Five weeks to finish :-(

BANDITSBC

great idea!!! My father has an 87 monte ss with a blueprint 383 and a powerdyne on it. I love those cars for a good build. tons of room under the hood and inside. his paint was coming off in pieces, he finally got it painted last fall. now it's SWEET!!! I had a zz3 in my 84 TA and it was sweet, my father has it in his garage but it's been torn down for a few years, not excited about seeing what it looks like inside.

GOOD LUCK!

Drac0nic

Sleeper it JMO.

ZZ3Astro

Definitely both cars will be sleepers. She wants a cruiser but she wants to be able to run like my Iroc does now. It will be quiet (possibly keep the flowmasters though), smooth etc. One issue is these cars only come with 3.73's.. Not a good combo for a tpi intake and a turbo. I would consider running a HSR intake just to do something a little different, but I like using factory hardware where possible. I'd rather run 3.08 or 3.23 and a stock tpi intake. That was a mild cam and a fresh 350 + 8-10 psi would put this car right on top of the 7.90's I'm seeing now. They are harder to get traction out of though.

We're getting the Monte on saturday if everything works out. He is going to start it up for me before I agree to buy. Will get it running and driving before I pull the engine. Not real sure what to do with the ZZ heads. I think they will work pretty well for my planned combo. I know I can sell them for a nice little chunk of change and put that money towards better heads if I need to. It's worth a shot to see how they do.