ZZ3Astro

Original build thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...er-single.html


The summer heat hit like a ton of bricks this year. I haven't spent much time wrenching on the car in quite some time. I've been working on replacing the heater core for over two months. The good news is all I have left to do is hook the heater hoses back to it! Meanwhile that hasn't been an obstacle to driving it as there is no need for heat in all of this heat.

Air conditioning has been fantastic. Still having some weird issues with the compressor not wanting to start spinning when you first turn it on (some kind of vapor lock). Otherwise working great. In fact we were cruising around in 96 degree weather this weekend and it was blowing out icecubes while the coolant temp stayed under 200.

I'm about nine months into this setup and it has been extremely reliable. Other than baking the original starter and baking a couple of plug wires, this has been as reliable as stock. I drive it quite often.. I think I've put on about 3000 miles since turbocharging it.

Here is the latest video, mostly to demonstrat the loudness of the blow-off valve, but also a take off run...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqlbCVH6tRw

thunder85

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the update.. I read your entire previous post and am in the midst of assembling all the parts to do roughly the same thing. where did you score that box/plenum thing attached the front of your throttle body?

on a side note, i'm doing the megasquirt conversion as well so do you have any tips or additional tricks for calibrating it? luckily I have one of the stock harness to megasquirt adaptors so i don't have to rewire anything

also: is this the turbo you bought? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tchlink:top:en

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Congrats on the car running good. I wish mine was as reliable

You have the tune all figured out now?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I forget. Do you have the Ebay GT45 on it now or still the 60mm? How has that been working for you?

ZZ3Astro

That Plenum box came with the turbo setup I bought years ago. It's been very conveniet. The box is actually fabricated from welded together pieces of flat aluminum plate.

The Megasquirt will be really easy to get running. The biggest problem I'm having with it has to do with the way it calculates fuel when the intake air temperature changes. You cannot eliminate the IAT based fuel modifier completely (it's built into the code to pull some fuel with increasing IAT), the code only allows you to set the modifier down to 50%. While you do want less fuel with hotter intake air (thinner air needs less fuel), the problem comes with heat soak. After parking for 30-40 mins and then starting up, the MS pulls fuel when it sees 160-170 degree IAT and you end up with a surging idle with an AFR of 16-17 until the IAT drops back to reality. Mostly a summer time problem but worth noting.

Otherwise the tuning is great. I would easily have a few more horsies out of this thing with some further tuning, but I enjoy just driving it as it is.

That ebay link is the same turbo I ordered, including with the V-band flange. It's 60mm... still running the same one I started with. Holding up very well so far. I really can't believe how well everything has held up so far.

89fbirdformula

Im honestly not trying to be an ***, but why is it so slow?

motor tired or something?

Damon

That's a very good sign, actually. Means you screwed it together and tuned it pretty close to right. If you were fiddly-farting around with it 3 times a week I would be worried something wasn't put together properly.

Drivability and reliability count for a lot when you take it out on the street a lot. Nothing more annoying than a car that overheats, or won't start reliably, or has serious drivability issues. Makes life on the street miserable, leads to frustration and eventually lack of interest in the project.

Now that you have a solid, reliable foundation, you can start tuning more power out of it from a known baseline. And excellent place to be.

Above all, have fun with it. When you get older, have a family, etc. time for this sort of stuff gets squeezed pretty thin (for a good reason, but squeezed thin nonetheless). You'll remember this car long after it's gone or relegated to long stays in the garage between drives. I mean, how cool is tooling around town in a turbo Camaro? Very cool is the answer. Drive the wheels off it! Excellent work.

ZZ3Astro

Hahaha... already there and very fortunate to be at a point where I was able to rekindle the hotrodding hobby. And you're right, the smaller amount of time available is much more happily spent cruising around than wrenching all the time. Not to mention, the other expenses of life and hobbies limits the car budget. Other hobbies this, vacation that and soon you only have enough cash left for a cheap Ebay intercooler!

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

i really think i might have to do this eventually to my poor little 305 if it lives through the nitrous abuse

ZZ3Astro

The 2 core intercooled Procharger 9 psi kit for an 88-92 TPI fbody advertises a 60% gain for the low, low price of $4500.

I'm making a real world 50% gain at 9 psi, without intercooling, and I don't have $3500 in the entire car. I guess if I wanted to go faster I should have spent more $$.

Steve

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

i really think it runs just how it should for being a basically stock car with a tiny turbo on it.

thunder85

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the info... hopefully it goes as smooth for me as it has for you in that regard.

on a side note, have you tried going with an open element IAT sensor and move it out of the intake? the heat soak issue is prevalent in most tpi cars and its a common fix. grab the tbi IAT and install it in your intake pipe just before the throttle body and it might eliminate that problem

ZZ3Astro

I did exactly that.. and it helps shorten the time the problem occurs, but unfortunate that is the first minute or so when you're trying to back out of a parking spot, changing into drive and turning the steering wheel a lot. It's stalled on me a few times now. Once the IAT cools back to reality it runs great. I even removed it from the charge pipe and moved it to open air near the headlight and it still picks up heat! However it is much more compliant there and will remain open air until I get an intercooler I can mount it behind.

In the warmer weather last year, I removed the gasket at the back of the hood and it worked good for dumping some of the under-hood heat... but in the winter, the fumes were coming in the vent as the only recirculate mode in these cars is max-ac, so I put the gasket back on. Just haven't gotten around to removing it for the summer yet.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

He can always just run alky injection. We ran at e-town last night, and air temps didn't even reach 100-degrees anywhere during all four runs, and my IAT is still in the plenum....

ZZ3Astro

A small update on the car. I finally dropped the cash on an intercooler and associated hardware to plumb it in. The core size is 25 X 12 X 3. The hood latch backet is in the way, of course, so I had to build a new bracket that goes from the crash bar to the hood latch bracket and center nose support. Afterwards I cut off the button 2/3rd of the hood latch bracket, opening up a huge space for the intercooler.

I'm also working on a very special project up front, but I need to make some progress on it before I reveal the idea


Nose off...


Crash bar opened up and honey-comb material removed. Nose skin trimmed to match crash bar opening.


New crash bar mounted bracket jigged up to center nose support bracket


Finished product! Now waiting for the intercooler to arrive. Also in the meantime working on that special project I mentioned.

Drac0nic

I believe this is going through the stock exhaust, isn't it? I would throw a cutout on before I even did an IC. I bet it becomes easier to tune and makes a great deal more power.

ZZ3Astro

No I'm running a full 3" exhaust with a 3" Magnaflow muffler.

Drac0nic

My bad, call me crazy. Can't wait to see the new charge air cooler go on.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Looks good. Is the core 25" or the overall length 25"?

Is that an HF tape and C-clamp? I just tried ordering some of the 8" clamps priced at $2 each. They canceled the order on me and did a refund. I hate when that happens.

ZZ3Astro

The overall dimensions are 32 X 12 X 3 and the core is supposed to be 25.8 X 11.8 X 2.9. Hopefully the one I get matches the description, but at $97 you never know

fast82z

iTrader: (1)

I had that intercooler when I was using the procharger, asside from it being 4" wide instead of 3", and it worked pretty good where you're looking to put it.

And to anyone in this post: What psi are you able to get out of what size turbo at 2700-3000rpm?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The core itself is 24". The bottom of the CAC is 25.8". Either way, close enough.
Are you going to dyno the car or compare ETs after you install the IC?
You got that IC for $10 cheaper than I got mine. Did you find that price on ebay or a regular website?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Looking good, an intercooler should improve things It certainly looks good sitting in the grille.

No idea, converter is over 4000 stall so I never see 3000 rpm boost really. On foot brake I have hit 3000 rpm and no boost but the tune is abit off, so I hope to start getting some on the footbrake. This is a twin 60mm setup on a 401. On the street under load, i can start seeing a few psi at 3000 and medium heavy throttle. 1-3 psi i guess, the turbos are definately spinning up by then.

ZZ3Astro

junkcltr,

I found it on a site... handhelditems.com believe it or not. It's also arriving a day sooner than promised! I just hope they send the right one

-----

Regarding the boost from 2700 to 3000 question, I don't have a datalog to confirm this but when I was trying to get my boost control dialed in I saw something in the area of 15 psi almost instantaneously (fully closed wastegate due to improper controller settings) right around 3000 rpm. My turbo is pretty small at 60mm single and tops out under 500 hp max. But then again I'm running stock converter and a stock engine, so I'm happy with spool time.

fast82z

iTrader: (1)

I just have a nice converter that got me great gain down track with very little slip but holds the motor at 3000rpm on the trans brake without really building boost. I have a little bit looser converter on the way, but thinking I may go with either compound or sequential turbo with the tight converter.

Should also be interesting to see where you end up routing the pipes on that setup.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I don't see the compound helping any on a gas engine, but the sequential would do what you want. The tricky part is the control system turning off/on the small turbo and turning on/off the large turbo. The problem I always see with it is blocking off the turbo comp. inlets at the right time without putting too much stress on the turbine shafts in relation to turning off/on the turbines.

Example, first have the large turbo comp. and turbine blocked spooling on the small turbo. Then start to close the small turbine and open large turbine.......but you better be closing the small comp outlet at the same rate or a little slower (assuming EBP is higher) because now the large outlet is trying to blow air backwards through the small comp. outlet.......but the small turbine is blocked.....thus breaking the shaft.
Wow, holy run-on sentence.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I hope they send the right one too. I think CXracing or another ebay seller has that IC for $103 shipped.

fast82z

iTrader: (1)

I hadn't really put much thought into the valving of a compound, but sequential I know is a really good way.

Kendol

Have you considered using a Holset VGT (Variable Geometry Turbine) turbo? They are used on all the new ISL, ISX, and ISM series engines. As an engineer for Cummins, I have had a lot of exposure to them and they work great. All you need is a dedicated controller for the variable turbine and you can all but generate any boost curve you want. They offer sizes from 60mm all the way up to 220mm. You can also go directly to Holset to obtain all of the appropriate specs and efficiency curves. If you have trouble, let me know and I will dig them up for you.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

That is a better solution than using the sequential setup. I have wanted to try the VGT series for a long time. The only thing stopping me is off all the info. I read about the turbine mechanism not being able to handle the EGTs of a spark ignition engine. Is this all a myth? What are the VGT housings / mechanisms rated for temperature wise?

When you mention 60mm to 220mm are you talking compressor inducer or turbine inducer?

I guess there are two things stopping me. Trying to find a cheap used VGT turbo with a 70mm or bigger compressor inducer always seems to be a challenge when ever I look. A 88mm or bigger would be nice.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I thought porshe used VGT turbos on their turbo cars? I dont know if its a holset but I thought I remember reading that they are VGT.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I think it was also Dodge and Garrett that tried it back in the 80s but had problems with the mechanism. If the mechanism sticks closed then overspeed and over boost occurs with lots of EBP........lifted head gaskets or worse. It would be nice to know that the latest Holset VGTs can handle spark engine EGTs.
The only downfall of the VGT units are the extra weight and physical size, but worth it for the spooling characteristics.

ZZ3Astro

Intercooler install is moving along quite well. I've finished the upper mounting brackets, clearance trimming on the headlight brackets and buckets, and drilled one hole through the radiator support for the turbo to intercooler tubing. I'm just going to move the charcoal cannister and run the outlet tubing through that location and up to the throttle body. I think I'm also going to ditch the wiper fluid resevoir as I don't use it (pump bad in the wiper motor anyway) to make it a cleaner install. I can always mount a smaller one out of sight. The intercooler measurements ended up being accurate and clearances have been great all the way around as planned, except for the headlight support but I wasn't expecting to get away 100% without trimming that area. Tubing is starting to be cut but I'm waiting on some more silicone parts right now. Driving by the end of the weekend I'm hoping.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Nice install. Too bad you are 2K miles away, I would fire up the TIG and save you a coupler or two. I think you will be impressed with the gains from the IC.

EDIT: Are you going to put a lip or bead on the IC tubing ends? Hair spray works good for low boost.

ZZ3Astro

I'm gonna have to do something. Low boost.. hmm is that anything under 20? LOL I'm very worried about blowing those off. 18 psi puts 88 lbs of separating force on a 2.5" coupling! Someone told me to use short round head screws. I'd prefer a welded bead or at least some spot welded beads.

My friend has a good AC tig I can borrow, but the couplers are pretty strategic in this setup. I might try my hand at it to put some gripping beads on the ends though, or let him do it. I also have a silicone 90 coming that I might use somewhere also.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Check out the recent post over at theturboforums. A guy took some vice grips and welded on some steel to make a crimp bead on tubes. That would work for you. It doesn't need to be much.

EDIT: I have put beads on thin alum., but it gets tricky because it is being put close to an end. I tend to put the bead back a little so the edge of the pipe doesn't burn up.

Drac0nic

Interesting. Most interesting. Do you mind if I shoot you a PM on this topic. I have some HE351s here that I am interested in working with. That being said, I'm not sure how NDA'd you are.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I think we are all interested in this.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Use strong t-bolt clamps and possibly some hairspray or some kind of sticky tacky material.

I dont have beads or hairspray on my car and it holds on 18 psi now. I did blow off two different parts of the intercooler piping but I just torqued the t-bolt clamps down even more and no problems since.

joker0907

Hi. I love your turbo setup. Im reading your build thread right now. Im trying to do something like that on my car. Im swapping to tpi cuz right now i have tbi 305. How much did your whole setup cost you?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It is the closing of the TB with decent PSI and not enough CBV/BOV that usually separates pipes.
I like the Clampco or Breeze T-bolt clamps. Both USA made and used on OEM stuff. I think siliconestop.com had the best price for them and hump hose used for flex joints in the charge pipe.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah I have a 50mm tial blowoff and it seems to pass enough air. Since I tightned the Tbolts down alot, they havent come apart. When I took the pipes off to adjust some things on the car, it was hard to get the pipes to come out of the silcone couplers so I know they were clamped in hard.

ZZ3Astro

I was gonna build that vice-grip tool mentioned above, but I didn't have a lot of time this week and wanted to drive. I just used an adjustable wrench and slightly bent the edges of the pipes outward on the pipes that are hard to get to. Everything is running GREAT with the new FMIC.

Results:

IAT without the intercooler: 160-170 degrees by middle of 3rd gear (9.5 psi, 85 deg weather)

IAT with FMIC: 94 to 98 for as long as you can hold boost (12.5 psi, 90 degree weather)

Coolant temp with AC on very close to previous, maybe a touch warmer in slow traffic. Very pleased with the setup so far and I've been able to throw in more timing. I did find detonation around 3000 rpm once again, so 12-13 degrees is all it will handle there. Once I get above that it is taking increased timing in stride. Car feels much more solid already. Now I have problems with the AFR... that is that the stock fuel pump is obviously topped out, as I'm now at 100% duty on the 65# injectors and the AFR will not get better than mid 11's. Time for the fuel pump install next.




I *love* how this thing looks now (other than the rust spot I found under the wiper fluid jug )

Here is a fairly boring video that shows the IAT stability. We've got the windows up and you can definitely hear the BOV now. Love it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnvedRjTOeg

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Looks great! good job

joker0907

Im lovn it!!!!!!!!!

joker0907

Wish you had a 1/4 mile strip near you would really like to see the numbers!

ZZ3Astro

Didn't have much time today but drove the car to work and shot this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZEyEEaACs4

joker0907

Keep those videos comen!!!

joker0907

how tightly does that intercooler fit? Trying to figure what size to get.

ZZ3Astro

Tons of pics and info on the needed mods on my intercooler page:

http://mentalsocket.com/Iroc87/intercooler1.html

The biggest issue is the 3" inlet and outlet. I would have preferred 2.5" but because it's 3" the headlight brackets need to be trimmed and the headlight bucket IF you insist, as I did, on the bottom of the intercooler sitting on top of the air dam. If I had sat it in front of the air dam then it would have fit, but there was increased risk of the intercooler being spotted. If that doesn't matter then it's a perfect fit. Just have to make a hole on each side through the radiator support for the charge tubes to go through.