random thoughts
11-23-2009, 10:01 PM
#1
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
random thoughts
related to combustion, engine longevity, turbochargers, fuel quality, etc...
so i thought i would post it here
I wont be re-posting in this thread at all. If you need to ask me a question post it in one of my other threads
The answers to my initial question about combustion was only partially related to the stoichiometric ratios. It is percieved by a majority of individuals that tune combustion engines in high performance applications that creating a rich mixture of fuel:air, (too much fuel) results with a cooler vaporized gas, sitting in the combustion chamber waiting for the spark ignition. It is this richer, cooler, charge that helps to prevent pre-ignition or detonation in applications that achieve especially high volumetric efficiency (VE%) percentages that input alot more heat. For instance a 2.0L displacement 4-stroke engine may achieve 200% Volumetric efficiency ratio by the addition of an appropriatelly sized turbocharger, appying approximatelly 1.2 atmospheres of additional pressure to the throttle body-
If you double the Volumetric efficiency, You basically just about double the output torque. That is, IF, and only if, the mixture burns correctly in a fashion the engine can use. I thought that learning more about enthalpy and free radical chain reactions and the organic chemistry behind combustion that it would yield HELP, but all Ive gotten so far is INSIGHT. I can understand the WHY and HOW now but it doesnt actually HELP me tune these engines is what I am trying to say. Tuning is still an experience, and interpretation on the fly, with some assumptions usually and instinct from experience.
If the combustion reaction does not take place in a way conducive the way in which the engine was designed to tolerate combustion, the engine may be damaged. We are only worried about engine damage, We dont care if it doesnt run right, because we can make it run right somehow. But sometimes, it runs perfect, or seems to, but you still have improper combustion and the engine basically eats itself up in some way, and falls apart prematurelly. These are the times when people say "oh its time to rebuild this engine with forged internals"
then they drop $$$$ on whatever they need to upgrade to the point where it tolerates your shitty combustion, they go back and re-use the same timing map the same configuration assuming it was all good to begin with. Yeah combustion is still messed up, but it seems to run perfect. The owner starts chewing up the forged internals...
...but some of these forged internals are amazing. They can tolerate years of mis-use/abuse. Thats because the power levels of most of these engines is "low". That is, the owners are making probably about double the power of factory, maybe taking a 200hp engine and using it to make 400hp with shitty combustion that is slowly eating away at forged internals.
400horses is ALOT for a 3000lb anything. Thats about an 11-second quarter mile with drag radials and a turbocharger upgrade for a basic 2.0L japanese turbo 4-cylinder configuration (PICK ANY ONE!)
11 seconds is every daily drivers goal. if you have an 11 second daily driver, you are doing something right. You dont know how uncommon this configuration is with the basic dodo brain 4 cylinder crowd. most of the smart people are into V8's... for good reason! there is no replacement for displacement. I love V8 configs and I would own one myself...
Except that they are a nuisance compared to a 4-cylinder for daily driver applications. The v8 crowd can daily a v8.. but if its in the car it was designed for... its not going to get 30mpg. The V config also gives you 2x manifolds to burn your fingers on when changing spark plugs. It gives you 2 exhaust gaskets to leak, and they are a pain to get to usually. V8s also give you lifter valley, usually, and pushrods too. They are generally also heavier, although some popular V8s are actually comparable in weight to most of the turbocharger 4-cylinder designs. (LS-2 for example)
Those V8 engines are great but in reality a 4-cylinder setup is ideal for poor people like myself. One exhaust manifold and far less prone to leakage since you pay far more attention to it, and so do the manufacturers, since on that manifold sits the heart of the combination (turbocharger). The spark plugs are usually VERY ACCESSIBLE. Since the engine comes turbocharged, the factory gives free high performance modifications. Light strong components, with very exact clearances, for example the nissan SR20, a 4cylinder 2.0 Liter engine that has been used from before 1988 and is still in production today for many vehicles. The engine is robust for its displacement, because the engine was designed with making horsepower in mind. It comes prepared to basically make 400 horsepower, you just need to feed and water it (fuel and air). That is you 11-second daily driver, waiting to be unleashed.
I said I was poor right? My whole point of all this writing is this:
I want to drive a fast car daily. I want A/C. I dont want to work on it very much. I dont want to invest alot of time or effort into it. I just want to change the oil and keep good tires on it.
WHAT ARE MY OPTIONS??? lol you have thousands of options. there is always more than one way to skin a cat.
I started out with V8 chevy stuff. I learned enough to keep an interesting vehicle but it was never an 11 second daily driver. It went 13's at one point, maybe 13.8. My budget for a vehicle is not very large, and I made alot of mistakes learned because that was my first shot at high performance vehicles.
My next choice was nissan 240sx. My friend FINN has had a 240sx since I met him. I quickly learned that his car was alot quicker then mine. Then I found out he got 30mpg and I got really jealous. Fuel economy is part of gg.
if you have power AND economy, you have a great daily driver combination... if you can add reliability to that, you have good game (gg). basically, you win. What else is there? The next step is a true drag race vehicle that you wont daily drive because of its nature. But even then a true drag race vehicle can be made into a daily, it just depends on how you side-step the drag-race nature.
for instance a drag race supra will generally have a very large throttle body that makes driving the car like a normal car impractical. this problem can be side-stepped by using a progressive linkage design, but that is far less common to see, most people dont drive their drag race supra on the street for a different reason. The engine in some drag race vehicles have aluminum connecting rods. the reduced weight frees up horsepower (Rotating mass) but the aluminum rods stretch over time, and you get far less engine life before its time to change them, so using it for anything except racing is out of the question.
The biggest obstacle is fuel quality. once you have to start using something besides 93 pump gas, you start throwing away money. There is no better deal than 93 octane pump gas available, and us poor people even sometimes want to use 87 octane fuel. Now let me tell you right away that its 99% impossible to make 400 horsepower with 87 octane pump gas in a 2.0Liter engine. you could spray something very cold such as alcohol injection or even nitrous but these things are impractical for me and in general. Anything can fail at any time on an engine (injector, coilpack, connecting rod, head bolt, etc...) But when you ADD something EXTRA to fail (alcohol injection system) you are doing exactly that: adding something that can fail. I make the sacrifice of having a V8 so that I can have a 4-cylinder. One of the pros of 4-cylinder engines is the lack of all that extra stuff. A v8 has twice as many connecting rods and pistons and many other things by nature. IF I am going to use a 4-cylinder I am going to keep the items failing list as short as possible. Everything is "failing". everything is on its way out. Only XXX more starts till that starter goes. Only YZX more ignition signals till that cam sensor dies. Only 5 more revolutions and your valve is going to attack your piston.
Nothing lasts forever. One of the ways I grade a combination is by its failure rate.
There are two kinds of rates:
Failure rate of identical failures
failure rate of incindental failures
-Identical failures are the same thing that keeps failing. Oh my ignition coil keeps burning up. I keep spinning journal bearing #3. the cam timing keeps jumping a tooth off after 2 hours of run time.
-Incidental failures are a new failure due to the vehicles environment (abnormal wear/change due to environmental variables) My brake pads got so hot they melted the rotor. injector #2 is only 40 hours old and it died for no reason. the cam sensor turned to mush somehow. the sensor suddenly isnt reading right. my cars floorboard fell out because I have it parked right by the beach every day for 10 years.
Incidental failures are completelly incidental if they happen because of the environment in which the vehicle is exposed. If it gets drag raced every night then that is the vehicles environment. If it sits for 5 years doing nothing that is the environment.
Malfunction failure- A failure due to a malfunction in the vehicles DESIGN is not incidental. It happens by itself but it happens because of the design. This is a malfunction failure. Malfunction of the vehicle to maintain factory specification due to a failure. The 1995 240sx driver side window relay box starts to act stupid after it reaches about 10 years old. The timing equipment on all 1989-1990 nissan 240sx KA24DE engines is prone to failure by design for instance.
These failures are annoying because they come with the vehicle when you get it. Nothing you DO to it causes the failure, it just happens by itself.
What if you build an engine and when it is cranking over it falls apart before it even starts. Without knowing WHY we can not say whether its incidental or malfunction. if it fell apart because I did something wrong, you have an incidental failure. But what if it keeps falling apart, because i keep doing something wrong. Over and over. I build 50 engines and they all fall apart before they start. Im going to start pointing my finger at the engine and blaming it. Im going to assume the problem is malfunction because I am angry and I have no proof of what the problem REALLY is, only conjecture and theory.
The problem with combustion is that it happens to fast. In any random engine that you are tuning for maximum performance you are unable to actually KNOW if combustion is happening right or wrong. All you know is:
A: what your instruments tell you
B: What you hear and see and feel besides that
If the engine seems to run right, and it sounds like its running right, and your gauges all say it looks good, something could still be wrong. really it depends on 2 things:
A: what are you monitoring and how accurate are the gauges for it
B: how well can you interpret the data to knowledge you can apply back to the vehicle
So im going to leave you understanding that experience is key to learning how to make engines run,
but proper recording and monitoring of data you recieve from an engine with correct interpretations is the key to getting the most information about the way combustion is occuring in the engine.
Knowing about free radical chain reactions is dandy but it wont help you tune your engine.
The main data you can capture that will be of any assistance to monitoring combustion is:
Exhaust gas temperature (in the manifold/ in each individual runner/ in the downpipe)
Air Fuel ratio (upstream / downstream )
KNOCK
(I need to write a whole page about knock because thats another misunderstood ideal)
Generally, if you see a good EGT, Air fuel, and knock, and if the engine runs correctly, the way you would expect, and makes the power it should, you should be happy.
/random thoughts out
so i thought i would post it here
I wont be re-posting in this thread at all. If you need to ask me a question post it in one of my other threads
The answers to my initial question about combustion was only partially related to the stoichiometric ratios. It is percieved by a majority of individuals that tune combustion engines in high performance applications that creating a rich mixture of fuel:air, (too much fuel) results with a cooler vaporized gas, sitting in the combustion chamber waiting for the spark ignition. It is this richer, cooler, charge that helps to prevent pre-ignition or detonation in applications that achieve especially high volumetric efficiency (VE%) percentages that input alot more heat. For instance a 2.0L displacement 4-stroke engine may achieve 200% Volumetric efficiency ratio by the addition of an appropriatelly sized turbocharger, appying approximatelly 1.2 atmospheres of additional pressure to the throttle body-
If you double the Volumetric efficiency, You basically just about double the output torque. That is, IF, and only if, the mixture burns correctly in a fashion the engine can use. I thought that learning more about enthalpy and free radical chain reactions and the organic chemistry behind combustion that it would yield HELP, but all Ive gotten so far is INSIGHT. I can understand the WHY and HOW now but it doesnt actually HELP me tune these engines is what I am trying to say. Tuning is still an experience, and interpretation on the fly, with some assumptions usually and instinct from experience.
If the combustion reaction does not take place in a way conducive the way in which the engine was designed to tolerate combustion, the engine may be damaged. We are only worried about engine damage, We dont care if it doesnt run right, because we can make it run right somehow. But sometimes, it runs perfect, or seems to, but you still have improper combustion and the engine basically eats itself up in some way, and falls apart prematurelly. These are the times when people say "oh its time to rebuild this engine with forged internals"
then they drop $$$$ on whatever they need to upgrade to the point where it tolerates your shitty combustion, they go back and re-use the same timing map the same configuration assuming it was all good to begin with. Yeah combustion is still messed up, but it seems to run perfect. The owner starts chewing up the forged internals...
...but some of these forged internals are amazing. They can tolerate years of mis-use/abuse. Thats because the power levels of most of these engines is "low". That is, the owners are making probably about double the power of factory, maybe taking a 200hp engine and using it to make 400hp with shitty combustion that is slowly eating away at forged internals.
400horses is ALOT for a 3000lb anything. Thats about an 11-second quarter mile with drag radials and a turbocharger upgrade for a basic 2.0L japanese turbo 4-cylinder configuration (PICK ANY ONE!)
11 seconds is every daily drivers goal. if you have an 11 second daily driver, you are doing something right. You dont know how uncommon this configuration is with the basic dodo brain 4 cylinder crowd. most of the smart people are into V8's... for good reason! there is no replacement for displacement. I love V8 configs and I would own one myself...
Except that they are a nuisance compared to a 4-cylinder for daily driver applications. The v8 crowd can daily a v8.. but if its in the car it was designed for... its not going to get 30mpg. The V config also gives you 2x manifolds to burn your fingers on when changing spark plugs. It gives you 2 exhaust gaskets to leak, and they are a pain to get to usually. V8s also give you lifter valley, usually, and pushrods too. They are generally also heavier, although some popular V8s are actually comparable in weight to most of the turbocharger 4-cylinder designs. (LS-2 for example)
Those V8 engines are great but in reality a 4-cylinder setup is ideal for poor people like myself. One exhaust manifold and far less prone to leakage since you pay far more attention to it, and so do the manufacturers, since on that manifold sits the heart of the combination (turbocharger). The spark plugs are usually VERY ACCESSIBLE. Since the engine comes turbocharged, the factory gives free high performance modifications. Light strong components, with very exact clearances, for example the nissan SR20, a 4cylinder 2.0 Liter engine that has been used from before 1988 and is still in production today for many vehicles. The engine is robust for its displacement, because the engine was designed with making horsepower in mind. It comes prepared to basically make 400 horsepower, you just need to feed and water it (fuel and air). That is you 11-second daily driver, waiting to be unleashed.
I said I was poor right? My whole point of all this writing is this:
I want to drive a fast car daily. I want A/C. I dont want to work on it very much. I dont want to invest alot of time or effort into it. I just want to change the oil and keep good tires on it.
WHAT ARE MY OPTIONS??? lol you have thousands of options. there is always more than one way to skin a cat.
I started out with V8 chevy stuff. I learned enough to keep an interesting vehicle but it was never an 11 second daily driver. It went 13's at one point, maybe 13.8. My budget for a vehicle is not very large, and I made alot of mistakes learned because that was my first shot at high performance vehicles.
My next choice was nissan 240sx. My friend FINN has had a 240sx since I met him. I quickly learned that his car was alot quicker then mine. Then I found out he got 30mpg and I got really jealous. Fuel economy is part of gg.
if you have power AND economy, you have a great daily driver combination... if you can add reliability to that, you have good game (gg). basically, you win. What else is there? The next step is a true drag race vehicle that you wont daily drive because of its nature. But even then a true drag race vehicle can be made into a daily, it just depends on how you side-step the drag-race nature.
for instance a drag race supra will generally have a very large throttle body that makes driving the car like a normal car impractical. this problem can be side-stepped by using a progressive linkage design, but that is far less common to see, most people dont drive their drag race supra on the street for a different reason. The engine in some drag race vehicles have aluminum connecting rods. the reduced weight frees up horsepower (Rotating mass) but the aluminum rods stretch over time, and you get far less engine life before its time to change them, so using it for anything except racing is out of the question.
The biggest obstacle is fuel quality. once you have to start using something besides 93 pump gas, you start throwing away money. There is no better deal than 93 octane pump gas available, and us poor people even sometimes want to use 87 octane fuel. Now let me tell you right away that its 99% impossible to make 400 horsepower with 87 octane pump gas in a 2.0Liter engine. you could spray something very cold such as alcohol injection or even nitrous but these things are impractical for me and in general. Anything can fail at any time on an engine (injector, coilpack, connecting rod, head bolt, etc...) But when you ADD something EXTRA to fail (alcohol injection system) you are doing exactly that: adding something that can fail. I make the sacrifice of having a V8 so that I can have a 4-cylinder. One of the pros of 4-cylinder engines is the lack of all that extra stuff. A v8 has twice as many connecting rods and pistons and many other things by nature. IF I am going to use a 4-cylinder I am going to keep the items failing list as short as possible. Everything is "failing". everything is on its way out. Only XXX more starts till that starter goes. Only YZX more ignition signals till that cam sensor dies. Only 5 more revolutions and your valve is going to attack your piston.
Nothing lasts forever. One of the ways I grade a combination is by its failure rate.
There are two kinds of rates:
Failure rate of identical failures
failure rate of incindental failures
-Identical failures are the same thing that keeps failing. Oh my ignition coil keeps burning up. I keep spinning journal bearing #3. the cam timing keeps jumping a tooth off after 2 hours of run time.
-Incidental failures are a new failure due to the vehicles environment (abnormal wear/change due to environmental variables) My brake pads got so hot they melted the rotor. injector #2 is only 40 hours old and it died for no reason. the cam sensor turned to mush somehow. the sensor suddenly isnt reading right. my cars floorboard fell out because I have it parked right by the beach every day for 10 years.
Incidental failures are completelly incidental if they happen because of the environment in which the vehicle is exposed. If it gets drag raced every night then that is the vehicles environment. If it sits for 5 years doing nothing that is the environment.
Malfunction failure- A failure due to a malfunction in the vehicles DESIGN is not incidental. It happens by itself but it happens because of the design. This is a malfunction failure. Malfunction of the vehicle to maintain factory specification due to a failure. The 1995 240sx driver side window relay box starts to act stupid after it reaches about 10 years old. The timing equipment on all 1989-1990 nissan 240sx KA24DE engines is prone to failure by design for instance.
These failures are annoying because they come with the vehicle when you get it. Nothing you DO to it causes the failure, it just happens by itself.
What if you build an engine and when it is cranking over it falls apart before it even starts. Without knowing WHY we can not say whether its incidental or malfunction. if it fell apart because I did something wrong, you have an incidental failure. But what if it keeps falling apart, because i keep doing something wrong. Over and over. I build 50 engines and they all fall apart before they start. Im going to start pointing my finger at the engine and blaming it. Im going to assume the problem is malfunction because I am angry and I have no proof of what the problem REALLY is, only conjecture and theory.
The problem with combustion is that it happens to fast. In any random engine that you are tuning for maximum performance you are unable to actually KNOW if combustion is happening right or wrong. All you know is:
A: what your instruments tell you
B: What you hear and see and feel besides that
If the engine seems to run right, and it sounds like its running right, and your gauges all say it looks good, something could still be wrong. really it depends on 2 things:
A: what are you monitoring and how accurate are the gauges for it
B: how well can you interpret the data to knowledge you can apply back to the vehicle
So im going to leave you understanding that experience is key to learning how to make engines run,
but proper recording and monitoring of data you recieve from an engine with correct interpretations is the key to getting the most information about the way combustion is occuring in the engine.
Knowing about free radical chain reactions is dandy but it wont help you tune your engine.
The main data you can capture that will be of any assistance to monitoring combustion is:
Exhaust gas temperature (in the manifold/ in each individual runner/ in the downpipe)
Air Fuel ratio (upstream / downstream )
KNOCK
(I need to write a whole page about knock because thats another misunderstood ideal)
Generally, if you see a good EGT, Air fuel, and knock, and if the engine runs correctly, the way you would expect, and makes the power it should, you should be happy.
/random thoughts out
11-23-2009, 11:32 PM
#2
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Re: random thoughts
why do ppl insist on having AC when they turbo their cars???
throw AC stuff out makes for lots of room for turbo setups.
putting a turbo on your car will reduce your miles per gallon.
If econonmy is on your mind yet u want alot of power u should get a sportbike, most are the configuration u most talk about which is 4 cylinders.
throw AC stuff out makes for lots of room for turbo setups.
putting a turbo on your car will reduce your miles per gallon.
If econonmy is on your mind yet u want alot of power u should get a sportbike, most are the configuration u most talk about which is 4 cylinders.
11-24-2009, 10:20 AM
#3
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: random thoughts
You tune the engine for the given parts. That means that the timing and fuel are adjusted on an engine by engine basis. You can talk all the theory you want, but it won't make a particular engine faster.
Dave is right. Go with a turbo sports bike if you want to go fast with good MPG. I did years ago and haven't looked back. The cars and trucks are fun to drive, but the bike can't be beat.
Play around with the 4cyl stuff, but if you want to go fast for cheap get yourself a stock LM7 engine for $300 out of the yard. Slap a junk diesel turbo on it and you have a 9 second engine setup. If you can weld, cut metal, and tune then you have a 800HP setup for less than $2K. Yeah, it won't last forever, but neither will the tiny 4-cyl stuff. With the right tune both will last a long time, but not forever.
Dave is right. Go with a turbo sports bike if you want to go fast with good MPG. I did years ago and haven't looked back. The cars and trucks are fun to drive, but the bike can't be beat.
Play around with the 4cyl stuff, but if you want to go fast for cheap get yourself a stock LM7 engine for $300 out of the yard. Slap a junk diesel turbo on it and you have a 9 second engine setup. If you can weld, cut metal, and tune then you have a 800HP setup for less than $2K. Yeah, it won't last forever, but neither will the tiny 4-cyl stuff. With the right tune both will last a long time, but not forever.
11-24-2009, 10:34 AM
#4
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: random thoughts
Put a small 60mm turbo on a V8 and you still have all kinds of room for your A/C. You want less than 600HP so that shouldn't be a problem.
The biggest obstacle is fuel quality. once you have to start using something besides 93 pump gas, you start throwing away money. There is no better deal than 93 octane pump gas available, and us poor people even sometimes want to use 87 octane fuel. Now let me tell you right away that its 99% impossible to make 400 horsepower with 87 octane pump gas in a 2.0Liter engine. you could spray something very cold such as alcohol injection or even nitrous but these things are impractical for me and in general. Anything can fail at any time on an engine (injector, coilpack, connecting rod, head bolt, etc...) But when you ADD something EXTRA to fail (alcohol injection system) you are doing exactly that: adding something that can fail. I make the sacrifice of having a V8 so that I can have a 4-cylinder. One of the pros of 4-cylinder engines is the lack of all that extra stuff. A v8 has twice as many connecting rods and pistons and many other things by nature. IF I am going to use a 4-cylinder I am going to keep the items failing list as short as possible. Everything is "failing". everything is on its way out. Only XXX more starts till that starter goes. Only YZX more ignition signals till that cam sensor dies. Only 5 more revolutions and your valve is going to attack your piston.
I see you have a "reliability" hang up. You must be using a carb on your 4 cyls because of all the reliability problems that come from EFI. Get real, you are worried about 4 more injectors, 4 more rods, etc of a V8? Makes no sense. Don't build junk and it will stay together. Even junk works great when put together properly.
12-13-2009, 02:18 PM
#5
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Re: random thoughts
One post you are talking about using SSAC headers for a V8.........now you are saying you don't want to work on it. Make up your mind. Go with the cheap stuff and fix it all the time or do it right and never have to work on it.
Put a small 60mm turbo on a V8 and you still have all kinds of room for your A/C. You want less than 600HP so that shouldn't be a problem.
You can make 400HP with a stock TPI engine and 87 octane. Pretty simple with a turbo and tuning.
I see you have a "reliability" hang up. You must be using a carb on your 4 cyls because of all the reliability problems that come from EFI. Get real, you are worried about 4 more injectors, 4 more rods, etc of a V8? Makes no sense. Don't build junk and it will stay together. Even junk works great when put together properly.
Put a small 60mm turbo on a V8 and you still have all kinds of room for your A/C. You want less than 600HP so that shouldn't be a problem.
You can make 400HP with a stock TPI engine and 87 octane. Pretty simple with a turbo and tuning.
I see you have a "reliability" hang up. You must be using a carb on your 4 cyls because of all the reliability problems that come from EFI. Get real, you are worried about 4 more injectors, 4 more rods, etc of a V8? Makes no sense. Don't build junk and it will stay together. Even junk works great when put together properly.
Remember?
Reliable / cheap / fast PICK TWO!
In my opinion, if your definitions of each word are REASONABLE, you can have all three of these things. It just depends on how FAST you think FAST IS, how RELIABLE is reliable, and how CHEAP is cheap?
My definition of fast for a reliable cheap daily driver is: 112-125mph in the 1/4 mile.
my definition of VERY cheap is: under $3,500USD complete for anything NON looks related (not including vehicle/paint/seats/carpets/gauges/hoods/bodypanels/etc..) JUST the performance aspect (drivetrain)
also:
It must get 27+ MPG average or it isnt cheap IMO!
My definition of reliable is: I only change the oil and occasionally at that sometimes i forget.
So we need:
-112+MPH trap (fast)
-27+ mpg average (cheap)
-under $3,500usd total Drivetrain cost (does not include vehicle) (cheap)
-only change the oil and inspect the tires (reliable)
How can we get this? Where does this exist?
I have found it. I am driving it. Want to know what it is? If I say here, this thread will lock. So, instead, PM me if you care enough, or petition the mods to let me say without reprisal. I am just trying to help.
12-13-2009, 02:21 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
Re: random thoughts
I will not touch a carb. EFI is very reliable, I dont know how you got the impression I didnt enjoy efi. I tune all of my vehicles even if they are 100% OEM I still retune the factory ecu or add a stand-alone because I want total CONTROL Over my fuel economy. I even take out the narrowband and run a wideband with a voltage caibrated analog input for my stand-alone...
in other words I program my wideband to output 0-1V (narrowband signal) but instead of 14.6-14.8 air fuels I have the 0-1V output around 15.5-15.7 air fuels. I use this input for my cruise on map vehicles because I can achieve better fuel economy, cleaner combustion chambers, more egts and more reserved heat/efficiency and even run more timing. It gets even better if the vehicle has active EGR.
I am a pro at extracting ever last ounce of power from my setup. I gain the last drop of fuel economy because I lean it out and add timing until I am sure its on the verge of power loss and economy loss because I examine my data logs.
in other words I program my wideband to output 0-1V (narrowband signal) but instead of 14.6-14.8 air fuels I have the 0-1V output around 15.5-15.7 air fuels. I use this input for my cruise on map vehicles because I can achieve better fuel economy, cleaner combustion chambers, more egts and more reserved heat/efficiency and even run more timing. It gets even better if the vehicle has active EGR.
I am a pro at extracting ever last ounce of power from my setup. I gain the last drop of fuel economy because I lean it out and add timing until I am sure its on the verge of power loss and economy loss because I examine my data logs.
12-13-2009, 06:28 PM
#7
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Re: random thoughts
Everything works if it does what it is designed to do. My hang up is not reliability alone- its reliable PEFORMANCE. I seek the cheapest, fastest, most reliable vehicle.
Remember?
Reliable / cheap / fast PICK TWO!
In my opinion, if your definitions of each word are REASONABLE, you can have all three of these things. It just depends on how FAST you think FAST IS, how RELIABLE is reliable, and how CHEAP is cheap?
My definition of fast for a reliable cheap daily driver is: 112-125mph in the 1/4 mile.
my definition of VERY cheap is: under $3,500USD complete for anything NON looks related (not including vehicle/paint/seats/carpets/gauges/hoods/bodypanels/etc..) JUST the performance aspect (drivetrain)
also:
It must get 27+ MPG average or it isnt cheap IMO!
My definition of reliable is: I only change the oil and occasionally at that sometimes i forget.
So we need:
-112+MPH trap (fast)
-27+ mpg average (cheap)
-under $3,500usd total Drivetrain cost (does not include vehicle) (cheap)
-only change the oil and inspect the tires (reliable)
How can we get this? Where does this exist?
I have found it. I am driving it. Want to know what it is? If I say here, this thread will lock. So, instead, PM me if you care enough, or petition the mods to let me say without reprisal. I am just trying to help.
Remember?
Reliable / cheap / fast PICK TWO!
In my opinion, if your definitions of each word are REASONABLE, you can have all three of these things. It just depends on how FAST you think FAST IS, how RELIABLE is reliable, and how CHEAP is cheap?
My definition of fast for a reliable cheap daily driver is: 112-125mph in the 1/4 mile.
my definition of VERY cheap is: under $3,500USD complete for anything NON looks related (not including vehicle/paint/seats/carpets/gauges/hoods/bodypanels/etc..) JUST the performance aspect (drivetrain)
also:
It must get 27+ MPG average or it isnt cheap IMO!
My definition of reliable is: I only change the oil and occasionally at that sometimes i forget.
So we need:
-112+MPH trap (fast)
-27+ mpg average (cheap)
-under $3,500usd total Drivetrain cost (does not include vehicle) (cheap)
-only change the oil and inspect the tires (reliable)
How can we get this? Where does this exist?
I have found it. I am driving it. Want to know what it is? If I say here, this thread will lock. So, instead, PM me if you care enough, or petition the mods to let me say without reprisal. I am just trying to help.
if u need a turbo to go 112 mph 1/4 its because u dont know how to build an engine.
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12-13-2009, 09:25 PM
#8
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Re: random thoughts
where did u get your rose colored glasses????seriously u think you will be able to achieve such a reliablitity that change oil and check the tires is all thats needed?? work on cars much???
if u need a turbo to go 112 mph 1/4 its because u dont know how to build an engine.
if u need a turbo to go 112 mph 1/4 its because u dont know how to build an engine.
And NO I DONT work on cars much, because mine is very reliable, I dont have to.
Why is it reliable? Ill say it again: 100% OEM. The manufacturer designed it the way they did to be 200k+ mile compatible.
you are just not used to it because you are looking at the world behind your own special glasses.
lol @ building an engine. unnecessary for my goals. I will make up 800RWHP before I will touch the internals.
12-13-2009, 10:05 PM
#9
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Re: random thoughts
NO CAR will last 200k+ without any repair of some kind.even brand spanking new cars break down did u not know this??? why do all car makers offer warranty, particularly the 200k compatible ones u speak of????timing belts/water pumps dont last that long like on the 2.0l mitsubishi engine.
oh im sorry i did not know you were using a boat anchor 2.0L .I thought u had a thirdgen with a sbc and couldnt figure out why u would need a turbo to go 112mph in the 1/4.
800 rwhp without touching the internals???no upgrading rods,piston, crank, valve springs,cam, heads, etc. wow all kidding aside i really really need those glasses. i would of saved so much money on my turbo engine if only i had those glasses.
i suggest put the book down and start getting alittle more dirt under your fingernails. And Maybe the extra 4 cylinders will not bother u so much.
oh im sorry i did not know you were using a boat anchor 2.0L .I thought u had a thirdgen with a sbc and couldnt figure out why u would need a turbo to go 112mph in the 1/4.
800 rwhp without touching the internals???no upgrading rods,piston, crank, valve springs,cam, heads, etc. wow all kidding aside i really really need those glasses. i would of saved so much money on my turbo engine if only i had those glasses.
i suggest put the book down and start getting alittle more dirt under your fingernails. And Maybe the extra 4 cylinders will not bother u so much.
12-13-2009, 11:17 PM
#10
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Car: 1989 GTA
Engine: Future: LSX Turbo
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Re: random thoughts
How bout something that runs 9s, street driven and gets almost 40 mpg? Buy a cheap mustang for next to nothing and drop in a duramax diesel with a turbo. Its already been done!
Check out the owner of nitrous express' mustang. Averaged 38.5 mpg, driven on 1000+ mile road trips and runs mid-high 9s. I bet the thing could be tuned for low 11s, get better mpg and last as long as anything else.
Check out the owner of nitrous express' mustang. Averaged 38.5 mpg, driven on 1000+ mile road trips and runs mid-high 9s. I bet the thing could be tuned for low 11s, get better mpg and last as long as anything else.
12-14-2009, 06:26 AM
#11
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Re: random thoughts
How bout something that runs 9s, street driven and gets almost 40 mpg? Buy a cheap mustang for next to nothing and drop in a duramax diesel with a turbo. Its already been done!
Check out the owner of nitrous express' mustang. Averaged 38.5 mpg, driven on 1000+ mile road trips and runs mid-high 9s. I bet the thing could be tuned for low 11s, get better mpg and last as long as anything else.
Check out the owner of nitrous express' mustang. Averaged 38.5 mpg, driven on 1000+ mile road trips and runs mid-high 9s. I bet the thing could be tuned for low 11s, get better mpg and last as long as anything else.
As to this... Yes. This is my goal for the future. Of COURSE I want this. You are dead right when you start to fathom the greater speed, the greater efficiency, an amazing vehicle to be sure.
The problem here is cost. I am limited because I am attending school and I am a broke ***. I had about $5000 to play with, and thats not gonna get me a 9 second turbo diesel. Of course there are better deals for fast and efficienct... hell I would have my pilots license if I could afford it, screw driving.
but they do not hit my current primary goal of:
-under $3,500usd total Drivetrain cost (does not include vehicle) (cheap)
This is just the way it is, i got the best deal (power:money) I could find.
12-14-2009, 06:39 AM
#12
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Re: random thoughts
NO CAR will last 200k+ without any repair of some kind.even brand spanking new cars break down did u not know this??? why do all car makers offer warranty, particularly the 200k compatible ones u speak of????timing belts/water pumps dont last that long like on the 2.0l mitsubishi engine.
oh im sorry i did not know you were using a boat anchor 2.0L .I thought u had a thirdgen with a sbc and couldnt figure out why u would need a turbo to go 112mph in the 1/4.
800 rwhp without touching the internals???no upgrading rods,piston, crank, valve springs,cam, heads, etc. wow all kidding aside i really really need those glasses. i would of saved so much money on my turbo engine if only i had those glasses.
i suggest put the book down and start getting alittle more dirt under your fingernails. And Maybe the extra 4 cylinders will not bother u so much.
oh im sorry i did not know you were using a boat anchor 2.0L .I thought u had a thirdgen with a sbc and couldnt figure out why u would need a turbo to go 112mph in the 1/4.
800 rwhp without touching the internals???no upgrading rods,piston, crank, valve springs,cam, heads, etc. wow all kidding aside i really really need those glasses. i would of saved so much money on my turbo engine if only i had those glasses.
i suggest put the book down and start getting alittle more dirt under your fingernails. And Maybe the extra 4 cylinders will not bother u so much.
You think I want to be driving a 4-cylinder? get real. I would drive a V-12 if I could. I am not making decisions based on WANT I am making decisions based on NEED. I NEED a reliable car that will go 200k with little/no maint.
of COURSE it needs plugs. but guess what? they are not hidden under headers like a V8 does- they are located in a place so easy to get to I dont even consider it maintenance. But I have never changed them, My engine still has the same plugs from the FACTORY. Yes, the original OEM spark plugs in my 4-cylinder are STILL THERE. YES the engine has plus 50,000miles so far, maybe more!
When I got the engine of course I did preventive maintenances... I changed the turbocharger for a new one, I re installed new gaskets for everything I could even the oil pan. I bought a new water pump and a timing chain set. I wanted it to be ready for years of abuse and I prepared it for this as cheaply as possible using OEM parts.
The 4-cylinder OEM market especially for nissan/toyota is very geared towards the high performance. The oem head on my 4-cylinder engine supports 500horsepower with simply a camshaft / turbo swap. Yes the ports are designed in such a way that this is possible with EASE!
800RWHP without touching the internals... is something I do on a consistent basis. Let me show you some cars within the last year that were assembled with 100% OEM internals engines with 800+RWHP so you can see through the same glasses that I have
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 12-14-2009 at 06:44 AM.
12-14-2009, 06:40 AM
#13
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Re: random thoughts
All of them except the last one has OEM internals. The last one is destined to make over 900RWHP and as I said, I dont touch the internals till I am plus 800, and that car is.
the chrome/dress up is not my idea, it is only to sell the car. obviously an engine doesn't need to look pretty to go fast, but it does help with the buyers opinion of the vehicle. The point here is that yes... you can make 800RWHP with OEM internals.. with the right engine. Dont need glasses.
12-14-2009, 06:50 AM
#14
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Re: random thoughts
If only they made an engine that was prepared from the factory for high performance. If only there was an engine that was high performance... AND OLD.. so that it would be cheap. If only this engine was also reliable and standard to the point where it could be depended upon for years of abuse.
If only such a thing existed... for cheap.. and easy to get... and easy to install... and if only it came with good power/weight ratio when put into the easiest car you can fit it into.
let me introduce Mr. Essar twenty:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-N...item518cf4b6c1
hundreds of these engines are available because they are old. from 1995-2002 nissan made thousands of them and they are EVERYWHERE.
This is the reliable 4-cylinder with the OEM performance kick that I keep speaking of. This is the engine that meets my goal of (< $3500 complete)
and also maintains (+27mpg) and (+200k reliability) and (112+ mph trap)
The engine is 2k but additional parts will run another $1500 before its done installed. But what you get... is already been described.
All I do is change the oil. and I am with hundreds of other broke *** owners doing the same thing. parts are available locally to fix ANYTHING that breaks because these engines are SO Popular that you can find anything for cheap... since items rarely break the parts pile up and they are very cheap. It has 8.5:1 compression... not exactly a starter eater.
when I rebuild one for power I always go with 9:1 compression.. you know for that additional 2mpg and 15ft.lbs of torque.
THANK YOU very much for your responses and keep them coming. I enjoy this very much, and most car forums are dead right now because everyone is so broke. anything to avoid studying for my organic chemistry final.
If only such a thing existed... for cheap.. and easy to get... and easy to install... and if only it came with good power/weight ratio when put into the easiest car you can fit it into.
let me introduce Mr. Essar twenty:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-N...item518cf4b6c1
hundreds of these engines are available because they are old. from 1995-2002 nissan made thousands of them and they are EVERYWHERE.
This is the reliable 4-cylinder with the OEM performance kick that I keep speaking of. This is the engine that meets my goal of (< $3500 complete)
and also maintains (+27mpg) and (+200k reliability) and (112+ mph trap)
The engine is 2k but additional parts will run another $1500 before its done installed. But what you get... is already been described.
All I do is change the oil. and I am with hundreds of other broke *** owners doing the same thing. parts are available locally to fix ANYTHING that breaks because these engines are SO Popular that you can find anything for cheap... since items rarely break the parts pile up and they are very cheap. It has 8.5:1 compression... not exactly a starter eater.
when I rebuild one for power I always go with 9:1 compression.. you know for that additional 2mpg and 15ft.lbs of torque.
THANK YOU very much for your responses and keep them coming. I enjoy this very much, and most car forums are dead right now because everyone is so broke. anything to avoid studying for my organic chemistry final.
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 12-14-2009 at 06:56 AM.
12-14-2009, 10:52 AM
#15
Re: random thoughts
I dont understand why you are on this forum to talk up imports?? Last i checked this is a forum on thirdgens and not imports. If you want an import motor in a thirdgen, go for it.
But to me, you seem to come across with an attitude to down talk domestics and V8's in general with all this turbo import talk. You ask for a motor to meet X goals and then when people respond you throw out imports to talk them up as gods.
Sure, RB26 may hold 800whp stock...it was built strong since its an OEM design turbo motor. ALL factory forced induction motors are built stronger than the n/a versions. Look at the supra 3 liter. turbo its strong, n/a its not and its basically same thing. twin turbo stealth/3000gt vs non turbo... just the way it is
ITS CHEAPER TO BUILD N/A MOTORS, so I would expect the stock internals for a boosted motor to be stronger. OEM's will mass produce motors for cheaper since for the n/a purpose, those cast internals are PERFECT. The boosted version costs more since parts need to be more reliable due to the extra stress of boost.
Ford modular boosted motors hold power but the n/a versions dont. GM turbo 4 bangers hold more power than the n/a versions, they have better internals but they allll cost more than the n/a version.
Compare the cost of a new production RB26 to a new production n/a version... you will see that the reliability and performance capability is in the extra cost.
Then again, there are cases where n/a motors with boost produce power.
My buddy bought a 500 dollar LS1 longblock, put in a LS6 intake/LS6 cam, single turbo setup with GT42 turbo. Made 500whp on 8 psi. Ran 10.5 at 130 at about 10-12 psi we think it was. Cheap, fast, and was reliable with good tune.
Junkyard builds like the "grenade" thats popular on the internet... stock 350 with boost made 700whp and ran 9's for cheap. Spend a few more bucks on better pistons/fresh bearings/etc and you have a budget reliable motor.
But 112 mph traps isnt fast. 90% of street motors 350 cubes or higher can hit that on motor alone and still achieve good mileage and reliability with no maintenance. LSx motors are kings of the street in this aspect. Bolt ons gets you bottom 12's and 112+ mph traps and still knock down 25+ mpg with tuning on the highway.
4 bangers may be abit more efficient to produce gas mileage at similar trap speeds but they are lighter in general which helps.
But if you think a 800whp turbo 4 banger doesnt require maintenance and can last 200k miles your on some crack. High HP cars are never going to be cheap and maintenance free
But to me, you seem to come across with an attitude to down talk domestics and V8's in general with all this turbo import talk. You ask for a motor to meet X goals and then when people respond you throw out imports to talk them up as gods.
Sure, RB26 may hold 800whp stock...it was built strong since its an OEM design turbo motor. ALL factory forced induction motors are built stronger than the n/a versions. Look at the supra 3 liter. turbo its strong, n/a its not and its basically same thing. twin turbo stealth/3000gt vs non turbo... just the way it is
ITS CHEAPER TO BUILD N/A MOTORS, so I would expect the stock internals for a boosted motor to be stronger. OEM's will mass produce motors for cheaper since for the n/a purpose, those cast internals are PERFECT. The boosted version costs more since parts need to be more reliable due to the extra stress of boost.
Ford modular boosted motors hold power but the n/a versions dont. GM turbo 4 bangers hold more power than the n/a versions, they have better internals but they allll cost more than the n/a version.
Compare the cost of a new production RB26 to a new production n/a version... you will see that the reliability and performance capability is in the extra cost.
Then again, there are cases where n/a motors with boost produce power.
My buddy bought a 500 dollar LS1 longblock, put in a LS6 intake/LS6 cam, single turbo setup with GT42 turbo. Made 500whp on 8 psi. Ran 10.5 at 130 at about 10-12 psi we think it was. Cheap, fast, and was reliable with good tune.
Junkyard builds like the "grenade" thats popular on the internet... stock 350 with boost made 700whp and ran 9's for cheap. Spend a few more bucks on better pistons/fresh bearings/etc and you have a budget reliable motor.
But 112 mph traps isnt fast. 90% of street motors 350 cubes or higher can hit that on motor alone and still achieve good mileage and reliability with no maintenance. LSx motors are kings of the street in this aspect. Bolt ons gets you bottom 12's and 112+ mph traps and still knock down 25+ mpg with tuning on the highway.
4 bangers may be abit more efficient to produce gas mileage at similar trap speeds but they are lighter in general which helps.
But if you think a 800whp turbo 4 banger doesnt require maintenance and can last 200k miles your on some crack. High HP cars are never going to be cheap and maintenance free
12-14-2009, 12:25 PM
#16
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
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Re: random thoughts
Kingtal0n,
The title you named this thread fits your post perfectly. You post so many contradictions that I don't know where to begin.
Why not move on and say V8, 4-bangers, etc..........cars in general (turbo or not) have bad MPG and ET in the 1/4 mile and that bikes are superior with the MPG and 1/4 mile ET? More random thoughts for ya. You are worried about performance vs. money. Well, 2 wheels are where you should be looking. Ditch the import and thirdgen forums and move on to the CBR forums. You can buy a CBR and turbo it to go 8s with 50 MPG for less than you can buy a "good 4-banger turbo engine" for your current import. You clearly skipped right over bikes when looking to the sky for the airplane you talked about wanting to fly (another random thought of yours). Drop the Natty Lights and pop open that organic chem. book.
The title you named this thread fits your post perfectly. You post so many contradictions that I don't know where to begin.
Why not move on and say V8, 4-bangers, etc..........cars in general (turbo or not) have bad MPG and ET in the 1/4 mile and that bikes are superior with the MPG and 1/4 mile ET? More random thoughts for ya. You are worried about performance vs. money. Well, 2 wheels are where you should be looking. Ditch the import and thirdgen forums and move on to the CBR forums. You can buy a CBR and turbo it to go 8s with 50 MPG for less than you can buy a "good 4-banger turbo engine" for your current import. You clearly skipped right over bikes when looking to the sky for the airplane you talked about wanting to fly (another random thought of yours). Drop the Natty Lights and pop open that organic chem. book.
12-14-2009, 12:50 PM
#17
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Re: random thoughts
Kingtal0n,
The title you named this thread fits your post perfectly. You post so many contradictions that I don't know where to begin.
Why not move on and say V8, 4-bangers, etc..........cars in general (turbo or not) have bad MPG and ET in the 1/4 mile and that bikes are superior with the MPG and 1/4 mile ET? More random thoughts for ya. You are worried about performance vs. money. Well, 2 wheels are where you should be looking. Ditch the import and thirdgen forums and move on to the CBR forums. You can buy a CBR and turbo it to go 8s with 50 MPG for less than you can buy a "good 4-banger turbo engine" for your current import. You clearly skipped right over bikes when looking to the sky for the airplane you talked about wanting to fly (another random thought of yours). Drop the Natty Lights and pop open that organic chem. book.
The title you named this thread fits your post perfectly. You post so many contradictions that I don't know where to begin.
Why not move on and say V8, 4-bangers, etc..........cars in general (turbo or not) have bad MPG and ET in the 1/4 mile and that bikes are superior with the MPG and 1/4 mile ET? More random thoughts for ya. You are worried about performance vs. money. Well, 2 wheels are where you should be looking. Ditch the import and thirdgen forums and move on to the CBR forums. You can buy a CBR and turbo it to go 8s with 50 MPG for less than you can buy a "good 4-banger turbo engine" for your current import. You clearly skipped right over bikes when looking to the sky for the airplane you talked about wanting to fly (another random thought of yours). Drop the Natty Lights and pop open that organic chem. book.
A bike is just a power/weight ratio. If I really want to go that fast, i would rather do it in a heavier vehicle with more power, for the risk factor of course, no other reason.
I have my pilots certification to take instruction for flight, but I can not afford the flight time to get the license. its on my list...
12-14-2009, 01:18 PM
#18
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Re: random thoughts
I dont understand why you are on this forum to talk up imports?? Last i checked this is a forum on thirdgens and not imports. If you want an import motor in a thirdgen, go for it.
I will gladly avoid talking about imports and focus on chevys I am just answering concerns as I go. naturally when i think of the goals in my head I am one sided when it comes to small displacement performance... naturally i will seek what it has to offer since i wont risk a bike.
But to me, you seem to come across with an attitude to down talk domestics and V8's in general with all this turbo import talk. You ask for a motor to meet X goals and then when people respond you throw out imports to talk them up as gods.
Are you kidding. My dream car does not have a 4 or 6 cylinder. I would much prefer a heavy vehicle (chevelle or old Camaro or similar even a mustang would be fine for old style) with a very light LS or similar to LS drivetrain. And if I had real money yes it would be single or twin turbo, naturally this is something I look forward to if I dont die first (thus the avoiding bikes factor)
Right now I am in a situation that demands that I spend not a penny if possible especially on un-necessities like fast cars.
But that does not turn off my want for a "fast" car.
My posts that promote "godly" 4cylinders are geared towards people, like me, that have very little cash to spend on their cars right now. People doing performance work are more and more out of business because we fast car lovers cannot afford to go fast right now. In a time of trouble I seek balance, my reliable civic that I would have purchased if I was anyone else, vs my 240sx that I have the skills to maintain and I can happily say is actually reliable if you dont touch it. And it will serve you in the same way a 2002 Camaro will serve you, with the small benefit of being unexpectedly quick and far more quiet and getting better fuel economy and handling better and being more adjustable as far as the power output goes... There are plenty of advantages and the biggest I believe is price tag.
By all means do what you LOVE or think you LOVE to do. When I voice my random *** opinion its because I KNOW the mindset of someone who is in LOVE with what they KNOW, I have been there, looking at trash 4cylinders that just make noise, laughing at civics in general and just about every vehicle on the road. I have been the narrowminded fool that thought it was ok for my engine to always leak because I was not wanting to pull that heavy *** transmission to fix the rear main that I installed incorrectly because of my attempt at building an engine was not up to par thanks to inexperience.
When I play up the 4-cylinder its about all of these memories, all of the screwing around under my hood because I was broke, while breaking my back for what I considered a fun hobby. I tell you, if I am going to be broke, I sure as hell am not wanting to put any $$ into my Camaro, I simply cant afford it, that is the driving force for many performance car sales right now and I dont want to be one of those people.
Sure, RB26 may hold 800whp stock...it was built strong since its an OEM design turbo motor. ALL factory forced induction motors are built stronger than the n/a versions. Look at the supra 3 liter. turbo its strong, n/a its not and its basically same thing. twin turbo stealth/3000gt vs non turbo... just the way it is
No, an RB26 will "hold" 800whp stock but not for very long. I would give them 500RWHP limitation for daily driver expectation.
The same goes for the 2jzgte. The internals are actually not that beefy, the pistons are still cast junk and they are very tight. The reason the engine can make so much power is because of the design and engineering that the manufacturers put into them. the shape of the combustion chambers, to the shape of the ports, even the factory camshaft is 800RWHP capable, and still maintains amazing throttle response/drivability. The power comes from race gas and a large turbocharger:
A V8 can do the SAME EXACT THING with LESS BOOST.
The problem here is maximum capability. The V8 is not designed for that power level, NEITHER IS THE 2JZ 6 cylinder, neither are beefy enough from the OEM to support that kind of power for long... power does not come from beefy rods or pistons... it comes from moving the air and burning the fuel without troubles.
I dont harp 800RWHP like its the golden talk-down domestic talk you think it is. I am pointing out that I am not wearing glasses as you thought I was. I have been asked to prove "LOL 800RWHP without touching the internals" was true and it is: I do it on a consistent basis. But its just a sales pitch, the cars will do this one time on the dyno with race gas to make the sale. From then on I keep the on pump gas around 500RWHP... about the same power level as I would expect to get from an L98 give or take. The differences are minor between say an L98 vs 2jz-gte when comparing factory specification.
Both engines can be build to provide a much longer service life under those conditions, and both are expensive to build.
again the only time I jump on the 4-cylinder crap is when it comes down to money vs reliability vs fast. I am cheap and I seek the best deal. An OEM sr20 will do 280-300rwhp stock, reliably. I see the LS engine in the same light, but it makes more power, and its even lighter than my 4 cylinder.
So yes I would rather have an LS engine than an oem sr20. But guess what? its more expensive to get an LS engine.
So Instead I use the cheapest, I make the sacrifice of power and keep my crappy 4cylinder. But I love this crappy pos, because it gets me from point A to point B and its quick enough that I am satisfied with driving it daily.
The oem sr20 is good to about 350rwhp on oem internals. after that, you should upgrade the pistons. I never said 800rwhp on stock internals was reliable... that is a death sentance for almost any oem engine that we would be playing with.
But 112 mph traps isnt fast. 90% of street motors 350 cubes or higher can hit that on motor alone and still achieve good mileage and reliability with no maintenance. LSx motors are kings of the street in this aspect. Bolt ons gets you bottom 12's and 112+ mph traps and still knock down 25+ mpg with tuning on the highway.
4 bangers may be abit more efficient to produce gas mileage at similar trap speeds but they are lighter in general which helps.
Agree and agree. you know exactly what you are saying and we are on the page together. you just think i am all pro 4-cylinder I hope I cleared it up a little better. I would love an LS engine and I would certainly put it in my 240sx for the "lighter" aspect to give it a performance bump. Its just more expensive to accomplish... it was not in my price range... trust me that is the first thing i checked into! I Agree with this! And I know an LS engine can achieve 30+mpg in a light car!
112 is what I have come to expect from 250rwhp + 2800lb vehicle. its just my baseline from which i judge any option. with 350rwhp the 240 will go 11's, i think around 122 but its been a while since I have seen any at the track.
I will gladly avoid talking about imports and focus on chevys I am just answering concerns as I go. naturally when i think of the goals in my head I am one sided when it comes to small displacement performance... naturally i will seek what it has to offer since i wont risk a bike.
But to me, you seem to come across with an attitude to down talk domestics and V8's in general with all this turbo import talk. You ask for a motor to meet X goals and then when people respond you throw out imports to talk them up as gods.
Are you kidding. My dream car does not have a 4 or 6 cylinder. I would much prefer a heavy vehicle (chevelle or old Camaro or similar even a mustang would be fine for old style) with a very light LS or similar to LS drivetrain. And if I had real money yes it would be single or twin turbo, naturally this is something I look forward to if I dont die first (thus the avoiding bikes factor)
Right now I am in a situation that demands that I spend not a penny if possible especially on un-necessities like fast cars.
But that does not turn off my want for a "fast" car.
My posts that promote "godly" 4cylinders are geared towards people, like me, that have very little cash to spend on their cars right now. People doing performance work are more and more out of business because we fast car lovers cannot afford to go fast right now. In a time of trouble I seek balance, my reliable civic that I would have purchased if I was anyone else, vs my 240sx that I have the skills to maintain and I can happily say is actually reliable if you dont touch it. And it will serve you in the same way a 2002 Camaro will serve you, with the small benefit of being unexpectedly quick and far more quiet and getting better fuel economy and handling better and being more adjustable as far as the power output goes... There are plenty of advantages and the biggest I believe is price tag.
By all means do what you LOVE or think you LOVE to do. When I voice my random *** opinion its because I KNOW the mindset of someone who is in LOVE with what they KNOW, I have been there, looking at trash 4cylinders that just make noise, laughing at civics in general and just about every vehicle on the road. I have been the narrowminded fool that thought it was ok for my engine to always leak because I was not wanting to pull that heavy *** transmission to fix the rear main that I installed incorrectly because of my attempt at building an engine was not up to par thanks to inexperience.
When I play up the 4-cylinder its about all of these memories, all of the screwing around under my hood because I was broke, while breaking my back for what I considered a fun hobby. I tell you, if I am going to be broke, I sure as hell am not wanting to put any $$ into my Camaro, I simply cant afford it, that is the driving force for many performance car sales right now and I dont want to be one of those people.
Sure, RB26 may hold 800whp stock...it was built strong since its an OEM design turbo motor. ALL factory forced induction motors are built stronger than the n/a versions. Look at the supra 3 liter. turbo its strong, n/a its not and its basically same thing. twin turbo stealth/3000gt vs non turbo... just the way it is
No, an RB26 will "hold" 800whp stock but not for very long. I would give them 500RWHP limitation for daily driver expectation.
The same goes for the 2jzgte. The internals are actually not that beefy, the pistons are still cast junk and they are very tight. The reason the engine can make so much power is because of the design and engineering that the manufacturers put into them. the shape of the combustion chambers, to the shape of the ports, even the factory camshaft is 800RWHP capable, and still maintains amazing throttle response/drivability. The power comes from race gas and a large turbocharger:
A V8 can do the SAME EXACT THING with LESS BOOST.
The problem here is maximum capability. The V8 is not designed for that power level, NEITHER IS THE 2JZ 6 cylinder, neither are beefy enough from the OEM to support that kind of power for long... power does not come from beefy rods or pistons... it comes from moving the air and burning the fuel without troubles.
I dont harp 800RWHP like its the golden talk-down domestic talk you think it is. I am pointing out that I am not wearing glasses as you thought I was. I have been asked to prove "LOL 800RWHP without touching the internals" was true and it is: I do it on a consistent basis. But its just a sales pitch, the cars will do this one time on the dyno with race gas to make the sale. From then on I keep the on pump gas around 500RWHP... about the same power level as I would expect to get from an L98 give or take. The differences are minor between say an L98 vs 2jz-gte when comparing factory specification.
Both engines can be build to provide a much longer service life under those conditions, and both are expensive to build.
again the only time I jump on the 4-cylinder crap is when it comes down to money vs reliability vs fast. I am cheap and I seek the best deal. An OEM sr20 will do 280-300rwhp stock, reliably. I see the LS engine in the same light, but it makes more power, and its even lighter than my 4 cylinder.
So yes I would rather have an LS engine than an oem sr20. But guess what? its more expensive to get an LS engine.
So Instead I use the cheapest, I make the sacrifice of power and keep my crappy 4cylinder. But I love this crappy pos, because it gets me from point A to point B and its quick enough that I am satisfied with driving it daily.
The oem sr20 is good to about 350rwhp on oem internals. after that, you should upgrade the pistons. I never said 800rwhp on stock internals was reliable... that is a death sentance for almost any oem engine that we would be playing with.
But 112 mph traps isnt fast. 90% of street motors 350 cubes or higher can hit that on motor alone and still achieve good mileage and reliability with no maintenance. LSx motors are kings of the street in this aspect. Bolt ons gets you bottom 12's and 112+ mph traps and still knock down 25+ mpg with tuning on the highway.
4 bangers may be abit more efficient to produce gas mileage at similar trap speeds but they are lighter in general which helps.
Agree and agree. you know exactly what you are saying and we are on the page together. you just think i am all pro 4-cylinder I hope I cleared it up a little better. I would love an LS engine and I would certainly put it in my 240sx for the "lighter" aspect to give it a performance bump. Its just more expensive to accomplish... it was not in my price range... trust me that is the first thing i checked into! I Agree with this! And I know an LS engine can achieve 30+mpg in a light car!
112 is what I have come to expect from 250rwhp + 2800lb vehicle. its just my baseline from which i judge any option. with 350rwhp the 240 will go 11's, i think around 122 but its been a while since I have seen any at the track.
12-14-2009, 01:29 PM
#19
Re: random thoughts
you just think i am all pro 4-cylinder I hope I cleared it up a little better.
I heard it alot as a kid as most of my friends and local kids for the most part are/were into the turbo 4 world and say thats where its at. Well they spend as much money as I did on my turbo car... they have to run race gas or E85 to make 600-650whp and run 140mph traps....I do it on pump 93 and still more left in the motor
And its more streetableI think my buddys 240 made 370whp and he's well into the 11's at 122-124 I think it is but i'd have to check
12-14-2009, 02:17 PM
#20
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: random thoughts
I think the conclusion is: Put a turbo on anything you want good MPG and good 1/4 mile ET. Period.
If you wanna go fast then get something light (tin can 4-banger car body) with big HP (GM LSx engine) and stick a turbo on it. The LSx in the tin can will also get good MPG because of the light load. You can pick one up out of the yard for $1000 which is way under 3.5K.
4-bangers can make "800 RWHP" by luck once using nitro-methane on a speculative rear wheel dyno and then they are talked about like they always making the 800 RWHP. Put a LSx engine up against a 4-banger engine and run dyno pulls at 800 RWHP and see which one comes apart first.
Bikes are the best performance vs money, but you can't be too chicken to ride them. I usually find that the poorer a person is at driving a car then the more afraid they are at riding a bike. Probably because they think everyone drives as bad as they do and will run into people on bikes.
Airplanes are not good at MPG. Look at the weight to person ratio for flying a 1-person plane.
If you have smarts and fab skills then you put a cheap v-8 into a light car with a turbo. You can go 8/9s and get 30 MPG. You need the smarts for the engineering and the fab skills for actually building it. Lots of people only have one of the two.........that is where these kinds of threads come from.
Although, look at Orr89RocZ's car. An example of both. Not completely perfect, but getting there.
If you wanna go fast then get something light (tin can 4-banger car body) with big HP (GM LSx engine) and stick a turbo on it. The LSx in the tin can will also get good MPG because of the light load. You can pick one up out of the yard for $1000 which is way under 3.5K.
4-bangers can make "800 RWHP" by luck once using nitro-methane on a speculative rear wheel dyno and then they are talked about like they always making the 800 RWHP. Put a LSx engine up against a 4-banger engine and run dyno pulls at 800 RWHP and see which one comes apart first.
Bikes are the best performance vs money, but you can't be too chicken to ride them. I usually find that the poorer a person is at driving a car then the more afraid they are at riding a bike. Probably because they think everyone drives as bad as they do and will run into people on bikes.
Airplanes are not good at MPG. Look at the weight to person ratio for flying a 1-person plane.
If you have smarts and fab skills then you put a cheap v-8 into a light car with a turbo. You can go 8/9s and get 30 MPG. You need the smarts for the engineering and the fab skills for actually building it. Lots of people only have one of the two.........that is where these kinds of threads come from.
Although, look at Orr89RocZ's car. An example of both. Not completely perfect, but getting there.
12-14-2009, 02:41 PM
#21
Re: random thoughts
True, it needs work but its getting there.. I have some engineering smarts and some fab skills haha. Not quite what I wanted it to be, but it is working. I may change it so its more of what i wanted, but thats down the road for sure. In the end i hope it gets good mileage and runs better/smoother/stronger than it does now and no more issues with things such as fluid leaks, backpressure issues, clearance issues etc.
12-14-2009, 04:44 PM
#22
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Re: random thoughts
I think the conclusion is: Put a turbo on anything you want good MPG and good 1/4 mile ET. Period.
If you wanna go fast then get something light (tin can 4-banger car body) with big HP (GM LSx engine) and stick a turbo on it. The LSx in the tin can will also get good MPG because of the light load. You can pick one up out of the yard for $1000 which is way under 3.5K.
If you wanna go fast then get something light (tin can 4-banger car body) with big HP (GM LSx engine) and stick a turbo on it. The LSx in the tin can will also get good MPG because of the light load. You can pick one up out of the yard for $1000 which is way under 3.5K.
Wire it
make mounts
make driveshaft
change differential
custom shifter
and of course... custom plumbing and all the fun little quarks that come from doing a swap like this the first time around.
I bent around that, because I wanted a car driving with a performance engine in just 2 days, and an SR20 swap takes 2 days to finish. If I had a backup vehicle then maybe, just maybe I could get away with the fab work and wiring.
and fuel economy in gasoline engine vehicles with tires is mainly regulated by vehicle WEIGHT alone. A V8 has only a SLIGHTLY worse BSFC than a 4-cylinder, in fact an LS engine is damn close to the 4-cylinder thanks simply to compression alone, and ANY engine in ANY configuration will do very well Fuel economy in a light vehicle (30+mpg highway @ 2800~ lbs)
12-14-2009, 05:02 PM
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Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: random thoughts
The engine alone is not the issue. Sure the engine could be free... but i would still have to:
Wire it
make mounts
make driveshaft
change differential
custom shifter
and of course... custom plumbing and all the fun little quarks that come from doing a swap like this the first time around.
I bent around that, because I wanted a car driving with a performance engine in just 2 days, and an SR20 swap takes 2 days to finish. If I had a backup vehicle then maybe, just maybe I could get away with the fab work and wiring.
and fuel economy in gasoline engine vehicles with tires is mainly regulated by vehicle WEIGHT alone. A V8 has only a SLIGHTLY worse BSFC than a 4-cylinder, in fact an LS engine is damn close to the 4-cylinder thanks simply to compression alone, and ANY engine in ANY configuration will do very well Fuel economy in a light vehicle (30+mpg highway @ 2800~ lbs)
Wire it
make mounts
make driveshaft
change differential
custom shifter
and of course... custom plumbing and all the fun little quarks that come from doing a swap like this the first time around.
I bent around that, because I wanted a car driving with a performance engine in just 2 days, and an SR20 swap takes 2 days to finish. If I had a backup vehicle then maybe, just maybe I could get away with the fab work and wiring.
and fuel economy in gasoline engine vehicles with tires is mainly regulated by vehicle WEIGHT alone. A V8 has only a SLIGHTLY worse BSFC than a 4-cylinder, in fact an LS engine is damn close to the 4-cylinder thanks simply to compression alone, and ANY engine in ANY configuration will do very well Fuel economy in a light vehicle (30+mpg highway @ 2800~ lbs)
Yes, the LSx has a good BSFC because of the design, not just compression. Heads,cam, intake, exhaust, etc. Yes, it is mainly about weight and aerodynamics.
EDIT: You could save some time by skipping the turbo. Instead put an old CR250 2-stroke engine in the trunk spinning a blower that feeds the LSx engine. It adds minimal weight and doesn't rob the crank of any lost HP.
12-15-2009, 03:21 PM
#24
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Re: random thoughts
That is about $1000 worth of parts. Still way under 3.5K. A smart guy like you could wire in an MS-II in about 4 hours. Probably a day for the mounts, a day for the trans. stuff, a week for the turbo stuff. I bet you could do it in under two weeks.
Yes, the LSx has a good BSFC because of the design, not just compression. Heads,cam, intake, exhaust, etc. Yes, it is mainly about weight and aerodynamics.
EDIT: You could save some time by skipping the turbo. Instead put an old CR250 2-stroke engine in the trunk spinning a blower that feeds the LSx engine. It adds minimal weight and doesn't rob the crank of any lost HP.
Yes, the LSx has a good BSFC because of the design, not just compression. Heads,cam, intake, exhaust, etc. Yes, it is mainly about weight and aerodynamics.
EDIT: You could save some time by skipping the turbo. Instead put an old CR250 2-stroke engine in the trunk spinning a blower that feeds the LSx engine. It adds minimal weight and doesn't rob the crank of any lost HP.
As to the wiring, again I dont have the time (to gain the skill necessary) so this would also be done by one of my "people" probably cost about $500 to get it done right...
As to "right" I would certainly skip the turbo that would add serious $$ to the project. An LS-1 is about $6000 to install I have already priced the option out several times. My ideal setup is OEM as possible. there would be no weird combinations of parts or oddities in the trunk to break or fail. The car needs to be reliable and anytime you deviate from the OEM you risk more than you need to.
Time is a problem only for doing things myself. I could have the LS-1 in a 240sx and running in just 3-4 days but its $$$. The sr20 engine drops right in, makes almost the same power, and gets the same fuel economy... and I have tons of parts sitting around for breakage... did I mention it drops right in?
12-15-2009, 10:25 PM
#25
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Re: random thoughts
I think if you had minimal skills and time, you could buy a decent 90s mustang (dime a dozen) for 1K and do a used diesel setup w/turbo tuned for low 11s right around $3500. Junkyard setups arent that expensive. I know the little costs add up but Im sure someone thrifty enough could do it.
Plus, did you keep receipts of all your expenditures etc..that show you only spent $3500? A lot of people stretch the truth if its trying to make a point and $3750 or $4000becomes $3500. Additionally, do you have dyno sheets of the power claims you are making or have made?
"800RWHP without touching the internals... is something I do on a consistent basis."
Surely, you don't go around the internet saying that without proof to back it, right?
Plus, did you keep receipts of all your expenditures etc..that show you only spent $3500? A lot of people stretch the truth if its trying to make a point and $3750 or $4000becomes $3500. Additionally, do you have dyno sheets of the power claims you are making or have made?
"800RWHP without touching the internals... is something I do on a consistent basis."
Surely, you don't go around the internet saying that without proof to back it, right?
12-15-2009, 11:38 PM
#26
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Re: random thoughts
I had a twin turbo camaro. I did the sbc thing. It was still pretty cheap... but it was not reliable, mostly because I made some stupid mistakes at the time learning. I have gotten my fingers dirty plenty, so much so that I grew tired of it. Working on the vehicle became a chore as it is becoming to many I am sure.
I NEED a reliable car that will go 200k with little/no maint.
of COURSE it needs plugs. but guess what? they are not hidden under headers like a V8 does- they are located in a place so easy to get to I dont even consider it maintenance. But I have never changed them, My engine still has the same plugs from the FACTORY. Yes, the original OEM spark plugs in my 4-cylinder are STILL THERE. YES the engine has plus 50,000miles so far, maybe more!
When I got the engine of course I did preventive maintenances... I changed the turbocharger for a new one, I re installed new gaskets for everything I could even the oil pan. I bought a new water pump and a timing chain set. I wanted it to be ready for years of abuse and I prepared it for this as cheaply as possible using OEM parts.
The 4-cylinder OEM market especially for nissan/toyota is very geared towards the high performance. The oem head on my 4-cylinder engine supports 500horsepower with simply a camshaft / turbo swap. Yes the ports are designed in such a way that this is possible with EASE!
one season?? 2 years???unlimited???
800RWHP without touching the internals... is something I do on a consistent basis. Let me show you some cars within the last year that were assembled with 100% OEM internals engines with 800+RWHP so you can see through the same glasses that I have
12-16-2009, 12:22 AM
#27
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Re: random thoughts
I've got a truck thats rolling around pensacola with somewhere around 300000 on the clock(350 V8), I say somewhere because the odometer stopped at 187000 about 10 years ago! So far all I have in the motor is a water pump, a distributor, and an alternator. but, a suburban wont run 12's unless you drop it out of the back of a C-130!
12-16-2009, 03:00 AM
#28
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Car: 1984 camaro berlinetta,86 300zx
Engine: crappy 305
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: stock
Re: random thoughts
Hey i just wanted to say if your looking a Nissans of course it can handle 800 hp in a rb26 a few times but your a pushing it even at 500 you are.If you even wanted to do that you would still have to replace the injectors and ecu and still do some tuning which i have to say from personal experience it is not cheap at all.When i had bought a pair of nismo 740cc for my 300zx it ran me about 1100.00 for 6 and yeah you can go with cheaper ones but they will not last you for longer than a year at the most coming from experience on that one to take it from a former nissan entusist stick with v8's you will thank your self in the long run.A good cheep and fast combo is a 240sx with a 350 or lsx i have a lot of friends that have done that and love it.But i have to agree with every one else theres some main factors on what you want one is you get what you pay for always 2. is how you build it if you build it right and build it to last it will.
12-17-2009, 09:47 PM
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Re: random thoughts
Has anyone mentioned the 3.8L buick turbo motor? That drivetrain can be had for under $3500 and drops right into a v6 ($500) firebird or camaro. People have gone well into the 11s with stock internals and they are known to be pretty durable. Buy one, upgrade the turbo and add meth injection and run 11s with good MPG.
I read where one guy took his turbo trans am and added a meth kit, bigger turbo (I think) and probably injectors (I would think its a must: more air needs more fuel) and was running 10s. It was in Car Craft a couple years back!
I read where one guy took his turbo trans am and added a meth kit, bigger turbo (I think) and probably injectors (I would think its a must: more air needs more fuel) and was running 10s. It was in Car Craft a couple years back!
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