ZZ3Astro

Yep I've been watching your car and Orr89's for some time, keep the updates coming! I got my new muffler on and ran out of argon before I got the second tail pipe welded LOL. But it was good enough to drive and I had my wife working the laptop for an hour or so. Very good results to report...

I've never put any time into tuning the boost range of the VE and spark tables. Basically I threw in a fairly flat spark map and enough fuel that I wasn't leaning out anywhere and that was that. I didn't see the need to put effort into it until I had everything more or less finished with the exhaust. We took it out and got a huge improvement with higher RPM. I had been hitting a wall over 4300 and it was because of my nearly flat timing curve ranging from about 11 to 13 from 3500 to 6000 rpm. I couldn't increase the area below 4200 without detonating, but it's now close to 20 degrees at 5500 and no sign of detonation. Better yet, it actually pulls and keeps pulling now like it should. Adding the timing also made fuel demand go up and huge amounds of fuel were added over what I had. I'm going to go back in and add more fuel betweeen 3000 and 4000 and see if I can get a couple more degrees of timing. AFR's in that range were in the mid 12's at 8 psi so I know I could use some more fuel there.

It's running stronger though for sure.. Nothing like brake boosting at 40 mph and spinning the tires LOL... fun stuff

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Glad to hear, that setup will definately improve with timing and proper air fuel. I seen a big gain in hp with adjusting the air fuel on my car and didnt even play with timing yet. 13 to 20 deg on that setup will yeild alot of power. I wouldnt go too much more than 20 on that setup tho. Get air fuel in the mid high 11's and it should be good to go.

turbo cars are fun

ZZ3Astro

Another dyno session.. now that I have a dyno available for my use I'm gonna have some real fun. We were able to start the test at a lower RPM and as expected I picked up about 50 ft lbs of torque (at a lower rpm than the previous test started). I'm very pleased with the numbers: 272 rwhp / 378 ft lbs rwtq SAE. That is over 450 ft lbs at the crank accounting for 18% drivetrain loss! Still, we couldn't get the start RPM as low as I wanted because the transmission wouldn't stay in 3rd below about 2200 rpm. I didn't want to risk setting the TV cable any further in (we had it disconnected and set to about 80%). This makes me want to go to a 4L60E so I can manually set the gear and dial up full line pressure at the same time. Plus it would be nice to be able to get the shift points perfect.

Video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvT3gmtFA-M

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

From that graph it looks like the torque peak will be higher if you could hold 3rd to lower rpms. IT looks like its starts reading at 3500 rpm. Peak by 3000 or so would be another 20lbft i think. Good numbers. How much timing you try on that ruN? whats the air fuel ratio like?

noboostnogo

iTrader: (4)

thats alot of torque!!! great job.

ZZ3Astro

I watched the AFR and it pegged 10.5 for the entire pull. Actually a bit richer than I wanted. I haven't gone over the data log yet to look at everything. Timing from 3500 to 5500 goes from about 12 to 18 degrees at 10 psi. When I get my intercooler I hope to be able to increase timing a bit in the 3000-4000 range which should improve torque even more.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Can lean it out some, 10.5 is kinda richer than what i'd like to see but its pretty safe

ZZ3Astro

Yeah for sure. For my original tune I just kept the timing ultra conservative and the AFR's relatively safe (but quite a bit leaner than now). Basically I set the numbers and drove it. This past couple of weeks was the first time I really spent a lot of time tuning the boost range and I richened everything a bunch and focused on timing. I can bring the 10 psi AFR back up to around 10.9 to 11.2 and pick up a bit of power. Luckily my friend just bought this dyno and I have free access to it, so maybe I'll get this stuff tuned right in the near future.

ZZ3Astro

Good news and bad news...

The good news is I finally switched over to MS2Extra code on the megasquirt. I got the closed loop idle working decently well for now (requested idle RPM like factory, instead of the standard megasquirt method of setting the IAC position based on temp). It still stalls out under certain conditions but I just need to tweak it some more. Nice to have the same rpm whether in gear or out, with or without AC running.

More good news, I finally tied my two factory fan relays in to control by the MS. Seems to work well.

Move good news, I installed the circuit for the boost controller as well as acquired a GM boost control solenoid.

Now the bad news, I installed the circuit for the boost controller as well as acquired a GM boost control solenoid.

Reason? Well I did a lot of searching and the MS2Extra code is just poorly documented. I couldn't figure out the boost limiter settings with the documentation, so did my best. Well, first the solenoid stayed closed and I got my 5 psi I had mechanically dialed in. I changed some settings and this time it stayed open, so the turbo spooled to 10 psi and I backed out. Some more tweaking of the settings and this time it seemed to stay at 5 for a second then shot up to 14.7 psi. The engine detonated (only 10 degrees of timing and tons of fuel there too) about three pings before I could back out. Everything seemed normal, it sounds and drives normal until I get into boost. As soon as I hit about 3 to 4 psi, it stops firing on one cylinder. It acts like when you have a burned plug wire and the fuel/air mixture gets too dense under boost, so the spark jumps out of the wire instead of at the plug tip. My guess/hope is a cracked insulator from the detonation. No compression problems that I can tell, but it could be a damaged valve. Time will tell!

Drac0nic

Leak down time IMO.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

build looks good! impressive numbers and i cant believe ur running that much boost on a stock rotating assembly and cast pistons lol.

im planning to twin turbo my 383 HSR and i only want like 5-7psi. your build has given me ideas for the headers im gona make but i was wondering where u got your turbo from? i kno its from ebay but what store? im looking for a t3/t4 i think that will max out at 10psi and i want like 650hp at 5-7psi, and ill turn it up to 10psi for the track, but im sticking wit MAF! yes i know i still cant find the turbo i want

anyway... it could be a burnt wire, but do a leak down test. how do the plugs look?

ZZ3Astro

Today I took off the downpipe and got to the other four plugs. Other than some strange looking deposits on one side of #2 they look perfect. The deposits were very slight, kind of crystal looking. When I checked the other side yesterday, #7 has some slight oil fouling, but this has been the case with that cylinder for a while. I replaced that plug so I will check it again tomorrow.

I did find #4's plug wire was severly baked for the last three inches (inside of a fiberglass boot no less), so I made a new longer wire that runs around the front like #2. Before, it came straight out between the manifold and downpipe. I drove it and all was perfect, problem solved... for about the first five minutes again. Then it began losing the one cylinder under full boost, eventually within 10 minutes or so, any time I accelerate at all.

If the #7 plug shows oil fouling, I might have to go with the idea that a ring land got pinged to death. No smoke or blowby though, that's what's got me right now. There is one other wire that might have heat damage, #8. The fiberglass boot shows some heat damage. I'll change that wire also tomorrow and hope for the best.

Drac0nic

For a warm 383 you may be able to get away with a pair of T3/T4 hybrids, a pair of T4s is going to work better and a T6 would be the only way you'd be able to get a single to feed that beast. GM MAFs will probably be maxed out with that much engine so you'll be into WOT tables. SD would be better in that case JMO because otherwise you're not compensating based on boost levels really. Don't get me wrong this is how the Grand National guys do it but at the same time probably not optimal by any means.

Hopefully it will wind up being some wires. The amount of heat one of these can put off is amazing. What color were the plugs? White, brown or black?

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

not this MAF

MAF is designed for supercharger/turbos
http://blowerworks.net/
scroll to L98 MAF.

i was thinking of the t3/t4s bc they allow fast spool times and the T4 compressor allows for greater flow. ive been looking but i cant seem to find the correct size for my needs, i was thinking 57-60trim. i only want 650hp which is a 150hp boost over my current 383. my MAF in my datalogs ive only gotten it up to 4000ish and its only reading 166-188Grams on the MAF so idk if im maxing it out at 6000.



ZZ3astro... if oil isnt getting past the rings the only way for it to get in is through the exhaust/turbo and the valve stems. maybe a worn valve guide or seal? im sure the oil plug is black. a bad valve guide could cause lost of boost also

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

they sell a bin file to go with the MAF. I am wondering what exactly they did to the bin file to make it handle 500g/s flow. Stock bin/ecm only handles 255 g/s so they would have to rewrite the code to handle more flow. i believe. I dont know anyone who has done this successfully yet.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

id give tequilaboy a call... he helped develop the MAF, he knows of one being used on a 406.

i kno this MAF isnt a direct bolt on... u have to repin the ECM harness etc. sure its not cheap but MAF is way easier to tune than SD. just food for thought.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

some people go both ways on the MAF vs MAP thing. I dont mind either but MAP does take abit more effort to tune. Its more fine than MAF from my experience with both. I had my 383 up and running farily well at all rpm ranges in a week or 2. The MAP stuff for my turbo car didnt go as smoothly. I barely had it idling in the first few days and driveable in the first few weeks I was new to it, so it took me a little to get the hang of it. WOT obviously is more involved in a turbo car than a n/a car so that took alittle longer but once you get the hang of it, i dont find MAP a problem.

If a MAF can handle the high flow that boosted setups give, then I'm all for it.

ZZ3Astro

The wires look good except for right the couple (#4 and 6) that are kinda surrounded by all kinds of tubing. The problem on 4 was my fault for thinking I could get away with that routing. I needed a long wire with a 90, so I just changed the end on a spare long wire form straight to a 90 and the problem is gone forever. Now as for #6, I can't bolt the dipstick tube bracket to the block any more (clearance for the downpipe) so I used the bracket that sticks out as a holder to keep #6 wire away from the downpipe. It's also got a fiberglass boot on it, but it occurred to me that the heat may have gotten to that wire as well. It could be arcing to the dipstick tube bracket and I didn't pull the fiberglass back to inspect it since I thought I'd nailed the problem with #4. I'm going to change it to a long wire also and run it over to and along with #8's wire.

Haven't messed with it any more since my last post but I think I'm gonna go check that #6 wire now.

I've had all the symptoms of bad valve guide seals since I bought this car with the nice puff of smoke every morning. No signs of oil leaking at the turbo. Everything looked fantastic in fact. Go Ebay turbo, go!

ZZ3Astro

Great news!! It WAS the other plug wire that goes across the dipstick tube support. Wow was it ever burnt up too. I'm gonna have to rethink my downpipe heat shielding situation. There is a 3 inch section of downpipe without header wrap right below #6 because of the narrow clearance between the manifold and frame-rail. The burned area of wire runs above this section. I re-routed it straight back to #8 and then up, so we'll see. Runs great now - in fact better than it has been running in a few weeks.

Also have the boost control somewhat working. It's quite tricky to get right but I do have some control going on now.

Drac0nic

Great to hear! Was thinking the worse, even stock it's fairly funny how durable these engines can be. Really hit and miss. So when are you getting the intercooler and cranking it to 15 PSI?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah heat from downpipes will bake alot of things. I have alot of wires close to my setup and I heatshielded everything the best I could and so far so good. I got the sparkplug heat boots, header wrap, and double sided foil heat matting I used to make a heat barrier. Works great so far. No plug wire problems for me yet.

project89

iTrader: (1)

just curious did u ever redyno the car or were these the final numbers

my 3.1L v6 at 9 psi put down almost identical numbers 268/370 rwhp/rwtq with a total of *8 btdc ignition timing

this wasnt my best pull but i cant find the picture of my last pull on the dyno which was my best but this should give u an idea


so ur numbers just seem really low to me and i didnt see a mention of new numbers or u having issues when u dynoed

ZZ3Astro

Wow that is pretty much identical to my numbers. Do you have a sheet scale by rpm instead of time? I will have to print up my last runs with a time scale, but I know my average 3rd gear pull lasts 7 seconds. I'm making over 300 ft lbs for over 6.5 seconds while yours is only above 300 for about 2.5 on that graph. I suspect that is where the difference is.

Have you ran yours in the 1/8 mile yet? Would be interesting to see how they compare there.

ZZ3Astro

Drove it again tonight (Taco night ) and it's happy as can be. I made a last minute change last night to the boost controller config and I think it put me really close to getting it right. I hopped on it this evening and it went right to 9 psi and settled around 8.6. I never hit overboost protection (10 psi) and I was trying everything I could to get it there. I really should start logging my drives.

Now I have to figure out this AFR issue I have. I think I've narrowed it down to MAT correction. There is a built in algorythm that puts a correction in to the fueling based on the MAT reading. The problem is the sensor is in the back/bottom of the intake and it seems to get heat soaked and reads insanely high temps of 150 after being off for 45 mins. It actually cools down with boost faster than without. So anyway I think the MS is taking fuel away because of the high air temp reading, but the actual charge air is not that high, thus leading to a lean condition. I can counteract it with the IAT based correction table, but that causes other issues.

project89

iTrader: (1)

unfortunatly no i dont my graphs are all in time instead of rpm cause my converter was making a big *** loop in the rpm graph lol tq starts at 308flbs and the reason it drops off in the end of the pull is because my ignition was locked to 8* i had no advance at all we hit the track with the car after fixing that issue and the car picked up 8mph and about .700 with no other changes

with the timing locked to 8* we couldnt get the car to rev up over 5300 ish

timing is now in the 16* range under full boost

t

heres a time slip im in the right lane( this was a lil bit before i dynoed 2-3 weeks i think)


check out the dyno video

TURBO V6 CAMARO DYNO #1

project89

iTrader: (1)

move ur iat sensor into the charge pipe instead of the intake should be ur simplest fix for that

calebzman

iTrader: (3)

Before I moved the MAT sensor to the charge pipe, I was also getting heat-soaked readings. Now, the IAT's seem more in line with the actual air temp.

Drac0nic

The other thing is there are "open" and "closed" element sensors. The "closed" element AIT looks like a CTS where it's just a solid copper piece, the open one is plastic and has a grid in it. supposedly they respond quicker as well.

ZZ3Astro

Yep the F-Body TPI's seem to come with the closed 'coolant temp' style IAT sensors. I went through the catalog at O'Rielly's and found the WT382 open element style. It has a slightly different plug key but you could grind the key on the stock connector and make it work. I went to my friend's shop and dug through his connectors and found the right one. Thankfully I left the factor IAT sensor wire harness intact, with the second plug about eight inches from the IAT sensor. So I just made a new extended wire and connector and left the old sensor in place. That way I didn't have to remove the intake.

Now for the fun stuff. Because of the terrible stock sensor, I had been fooled into believing my IAT was not bad at all. Well during a single gear acceleration at 9 psi, I'm seeing the temps going into the 140 range. This is with 85 degree outside air temp. Cruise settles around 110 degrees once the turbo has warmed up good. I did a second gear brake boost to simulate a run and I had to let out when I saw 160 degrees approaching!

Intercooler time!

In other news, I built the knock sensor circuit (a voltage limiting diode and resistor and a jumper to J4) and connected the oem knock module output to a spare pin. Now I have to pull the new style (speed density compatible) knock sensor out and put the old style back in so the knock module will be happy. Then I'll set up the knock sensor in the MS and have one more layer of protection in place.

And of course now I'll have to go back and work on my tuning again with the now accurate IAT numbers.

project89

iTrader: (1)

im curious did u ever measure the inducer on ur turbo?

alot of the ebay t70 turbos are actually t4 50 trims and not 70 mm turbos

ZZ3Astro

60mm is what I measured if I recall correctly.

project89

iTrader: (1)

that sounds right the ebay turbos would either measure 48/52/60 or 69 mm

sounds like u got urself a 60-1 spec turbo pretty much the same turbo im runnin except mine is a t3/60-1 garret

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I need to change my IAT sensor from the manifold to the intake charge pipe and go to a open style sensor too. My IATs just sit at 1 value and never deviate much. Its got to be heat soak.

Drac0nic

You're not doing terrible then with those dyno numbers. If the garrett map is accurate, then that means that you're getting pretty close to the edge of efficiency. You could possibly crank it up a bit higher and make the turbo work a bit more in its efficiency range. I really think a worked over TPI intake or a few other light mods would push this turbo totally out of its efficiency range but for a stone stock motor it's not actually a terrible match.

In regards to the knock sensor, something else cool that you may be interested to know about is that the Buick guys have an audiable knock detector based on the stock system they designed. Since their module is like your TPI setup's, you can use it as well. Linky here:

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/proj...nock/knock.zip

I have a built one here somewhere, never tested it though. Should see if I can locate it one day and find out if it works. It's a simple enough circuit.

Tri'all

sweet thread i gotta come back and read some more. just working on issues on mine and its priority unfortunately