Kingtal0n

This is a new one for me. I wouldnt have bothered to post but... I just can't seem to figure this one out.

Today I started my twin turbo camaro. It drove fine, until boost. Under boost it misses and runs like total crap, almost like pre-ignition but without all the noise. Normally, i would attribute this to a tuning issue, but just the other day I tuned it to what I thought was nearly perfect.

So i continue on my way, i get on the highway. about 20 miles later, the symptoms are going away. car actually moves better under boost... but still not making the power it should be.

50 miles later, Its running perfect again. Boosting 8PSI like nothing, PERFECT with MAT temps of 140* the whole time. coolant 189*. Spark advance (28* @ 8PSI 32* @ 2PSI) Fuel stayed rich on the narrowband and no evidence of ANY problems.

Shut car off, let cool down, and its running crappy again.

Thing I noticed: The car has an oil leak in one of the oil-return lines. it only leaks under boost, and when it does it leaks all over the exhaust. when the car is running "crappy-cold", it tends to SPILL oil all over my exhaust. but when the car is warmed up, there is little/no oil leak evident even under 8PSI of boost for 15+ seconds on the highway. This is the only thing consistant with my weird power increase, the oil leak seems to go away.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Are you soaking your O2 sensor or a flange with oil?

Kingtal0n

no the O2 is in the downpipe right after the turbo. the oil leak is in the oil pan. way down below.

I noted something else, the whole car seems to run better after 30 miles of driving. for instance, at part throttle cruise on the highway, at first its around 10" of vacuum (60MPH 4th gear) as time goes on, it will get up to around 15" of vacuum (same MPH & gear) so the car sort of gets "better"

I have a theory. what if the oil is getting thinner as i drive and thats causing the car to run better, because the oils are getting too much oil. I ran #4 from the back of the intake to both turbos, no restriction as I have heard is important.

Kingtal0n

I found more information. its not turbo related, its engine related. the turbos have built in restrictors in the center section castings. ive ruled them out, since they obviouselly work just fine...

its engine related. the only thing that comes to mind when i think of oil pressure is the pushrods and lifters. I just did a roller cam swap, but never checked pushrod geometry, just the contact pattern on the valve stems, which looked fine.

but they are too long. like .3"-.4" too long. they ride way up on the valve stem before it opens. can this be my loss of power problem? im talking like from 120 horsepower to 500 horsepower difference when the car loses oil pressure.

xtremeirocz

i had something close to this with a boost motor and it ended up that i didnt have enough oil pressure to keep the lifters pumpud all the time. i modified a melling pump and installed it and gained 20 psi and all the problems like kinda what you are describing went away, how much oil pressure is it holding when it is running like crap, i had 45-50 psi and thought that was sufficient but i was wrong, also how much pressure you have at idle?

Kingtal0n

Your backwards. My motor runs like **** with 80PSI of oil pressure. It runs GODLY at 2PSI of oil pressure. less pressure = more horsepower for me. the question is, WHY?

xtremeirocz

man you have me stumped on that one, that really doesnt even make sense? is the machine work sound? bearing issues maybe?

89JYturbo

I have seen a few newer Volkswagens in our shop that had excessive oil pressure cause a no start/poor running condition. The one actually was towed in because it would start and stall, and we found it had 200psi oil pressure. this was an extreme case, but the local VW specialist said they see this often. Apperently the high oil pressure causes the lifters to pump up and crack open all the valves, bleeding off compression. These VW pumps had problems with the pressure control valving.

I don't know if this could be your problem, but you could back off your valve adjustment (no preload on the lifters) as a quick and dirty diagnosis. If it runs better with no preload on the lifters, you know they are recieving too much oil pressure and opening the valves.

Hope this helps.

Kingtal0n

Well this whole problem started when I changed two things:
I swapped in a Roller cam with the V6 Roller lifters.
I swapped in twin turbos. I dont think the problem is the turbos...

It could very well be these lifters were never designed to run with a high volume oil pump in a V8, they came from a V6

89305RS

if the lifters were recieving too much oil pressure and keeping the valves the motor would backfire through the exhaust and intake. Is the car doing that?

Kingtal0n

Bingo;

Actually now that you mention it, The car was making "lean backfire / misses" when I originally got it running with OPEN downpipes. ever since I welded up the exhaust, the problem seemed to go away, except...

I think it is backfiring through the exhaust still, when I get the RPMS up a little, and as for the intake, it is now complete through the intercoolers, so it would be hard to hear the little pops that I was hearing before (which explains another mystery...)

I originally thought the backfires were, like i said a lean miss. I added a little bit of fuel to the base map, but the problem persisted. I forgot about it, and welded up the exhaust. the problem "went away" I assumed it was because the backpressure from the exhaust reduced the air-inducted to the motor, lowering the requirements for FUEL. apparently, I was WRONG. when the car begins to lose oil pressure, it runs right and doesnt MISS and suffer the lack of POWER.

89305RS, I would have never thought about that, THANK YOU. It all makes sense to me now.. .

So what sort of pre-load should I put on these lifters then? maybe just under a 1/4 turn? I was running 1/2, but apparently thats TOO MUCH!

89JYturbo

For now, adjust the lifters to zero lash. That way, if it fixes your problem, you will know for sure that the theory was correct. Then you can do some surgery to figure out the root cause of the problem.

Kingtal0n

Im waiting for the correct length pushrods to arrive; and the new oil pan (who rail isnt all bent up...)

Im brazing new return fittings into the new steel oil pan that will arrive tommarow with my new pushrods, and doing it all at once.

then ill adjust the lifters with just a TINCTURE of pre-load, enough to keep them seated. I think with the correct length pushrod, it will do just fine. I found some metal material in my OIL today apparently it ran low enough on oil to do some damage to my bearings. I may consider pulling the motor and doing a rebuild, while im "in there anyways." sigh* the things I do for my car... er ... country.

89305RS

It sounds like your exhaust pushrod lengths are too long. buy an adjustable pushrod kit too see how long they NEED to be and compare what you have..

Kingtal0n

I bought the correct length pushrods (7.400") which put the rockers at the correct geometry according to my adjustable pushrods. I also got the oil pan off and back on, hooked everything back up, and did about 1/4 turn of pre-load on the lifters.


Its doing the same thing. not just running crappy, but blowing oil from somewhere in the back of the motor as well. I found oil all over the back of the intake, its like its coming from the distributor hole, but around the dist. its mosty dry. it runs down the back of the motor and burns on the exhaust. Under the intake manifold is dry, and the part of the head near the intake is dry too, as is the silicone on the back of the intake. ONLY under boost it blows out. no the PCV is not hooked up.

So now what do you suppose the problem is? could 1/4 turn also be too much? would it hurt to run a little actual LASH between the rocker and the valve? maybe comp screwed up and sent a solid roller istead??

Im sure if i dump 4 quarts of oil out of my pan, it will run FLAWLESS again. what he HECK could this mean?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Funny.. same exact thing happened to my setup.

Lots of oil pressure floated the valves a little.

HIgh rpm with my cam floated teh valves a lot (under boost).

I (was) using 100# springs. Not enough for roller camshaft with .510 lift.

-- Joe

Kingtal0n

Well thats good news, except that Im using the springs recommended for this cam by comp... They are something like 220# seat and 3XX open. doubles, WITH dampers. very stiff from the looks of it.

when you changed springs, the problem went away? mines not going away. Im thinking of doing the lash with the motor running. maybe the springs inside the lifters are weak, and what Im thinking is ZERO lash, maybe isnt? I even tried a thinner oil, from 15-50 to 10-30, but that didnt do $@#&, if anything made it worse.

another thing i thought of, maybe the cam is walking forward which would cause .... ????? just another thought, of something that oil pressure would do and wouldnt do.

what else activates / deactivates with and without oil? obviouselly engine bearings go into destruction mode, mine did, but besides that...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You *HAVE* to adjust the valves with the motor running.
You can't do it correctly the other way with hydraulic lifters, unless you verify the lifters are pumped up!

-- Joe

89JYturbo

I worked at GM for several years, and owned my own repair shop for several more, and have never seen anyone adjusting hydraulic lifters with the engine running. I also never seen it suggested in any service manual. Most people resort to this because they don't know how to adjust the valves the correct way.

KingtalOn-
I would recommend adjusting your valves to zero lash to see if that cures your problem. Then you will know for sure that you have a lifter/pressure problem. By zero lash, I mean tighten the adjuster just until there is no vertical movement in the pushrod- I don't recommend twisting the pushrod between your fingers because it can be hard to feel the point of zero lash that way (especially if, like you said, your plunger springs in the lifter are weak).

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Adjusting them while it’s running is less accurate, I haven’t seen anyone that can get them as close to 0 lash while running as you can by doing it correctly not running. The lifter have a spring in them that should keep the plunger up while doing this, even without any oil pressure, and is more then enough tension to properly adjust against. If it isn’t then the lifter needs to be replaced.

As far as what I do, I will not run factory lifters at 0 lash, if you get a little wear in the drivetrain you suddenly have the top of the plunger slamming into the retaining wire and you’re just asking for failure. Instead I go for 0 lash (sorta a combination of methods, I pull it up and down to know where I’m at, and then twirl once I’m in the right place) + 1/8-1/6 turn (one hex flat).

To be honest, since the beginning of this thread I haven’t really had a clear idea of what you’re trying to trace down with all of this lifter stuff and why you’re sure it’s the lifters... or even oil pressure related

Kingtal0n

Well, I beleive it to be oil pressure related for 2 reasons:

It didnt do this until the roller cam swap. the only non NEW part was the lifters.

and the problem dissapears when the oil pressure dissapears. As in, when the oil pressure guage goes to 0PSI during WOT, the motor picks up 500 horsepower, no joke. When the oil pressure guage reads, 50-60PSI, it runs like a stock L03 with a clogged throttle body and some burnt plug wires.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've got a handful of books you can borrow if you wanna swing by my shop later.

btw, when adjusting them while engine running, most race engine builders recommend this so you don't get oil everywhere: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...M-140355&N=120 302283

Mr. gasket, and many other vendors make 'em so you should be able to get 'em local.


The factory does things to whip out cars quickly. Not for performance.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

0psi at wot? I'm guessing this is a typo.

I've heard and read many stories of high pressure oil pumps opening valves and causing valve float. But you say your springs are rated for your cam. I guess I'm at a loss.

-- Joe

jwscab

I have never read anywhere where the lifters should be adjusted while running, other than to set the valves when the engine is completely assembled, and its tough to grab the pushrods. Setting the lash per cylinder finding zero lash on a non-running is the factory way to do it, and its also the right way to do it, I have never had a problem with lifter lash using this method, plus usually a half a turn.

this is a bizzare problem that will require some inspection inside to know what is really going on. I suspect something, though, since it was just mentioned. How are your retaining the cam to preventing it from walking around? if the cam has too much play, it could walk, and take off the corners of the cam lobe, and the sides of the lifters, which could explain the metal you are finding, and also a major loss of power. Since the distributor and pump are driven from the cam, this could also affect either. Is the metal you found magnetic? bearing metal is usually copper/lead/etc, and will look like fine gray silt, that doesn't stick to a magnet........unless the bearing is so far gone you're worn out the soft wear layer into the steel backing.

if it is the cam wallking, you just need to pop the distributor out and look at the gear, if its chewed up, you know its has something to do with it.

Kingtal0n

<b>0psi at wot? I'm guessing this is a typo. </b>
nope, like i said before, the motor RAN OUT OF OIL during a few WOT runs. during this time, it ran FLAWLESSLY with 0PSI On the guage of oil pressure. this is what sparked the idea that its the lifters.

<b>if it is the cam wallking, you just need to pop the distributor out and look at the gear, if its chewed up, you know its has something to do with it.</b>

I got a look at the cam lobes when i pulled the oil pan, they look brand new. I got a look at the dist. when i pulled the motor, it looks brand new still also. I guess the cam isnt walking.. Im using a nylon button to hold it back, with a little end play like comp recommends.

The motor is knocking now, obviouselly running without oil has damaged it. Im not going to tear into it yet, and rebuild it, until I know what is causing my problems. I took some datalogs of the problem occuring, and a datalog of after the oil drained out. Ill post them in a few minutes...

Kingtal0n

<b> here is a Datalog of the motor with plenty of oil pressure present. As you can see, it doesnt build boost well at all, doesnt make any power at all, and picks up a ton of knock for some reason. I took this datalog a few minutes ago, It could be picking up knock because of the engine knock that is now present, so that may or may not be a factor that has to do with the problem.

Kingtal0n

Here is a datalog with, 0 PSI of oil pressure present. thats right, 0 PSI not a typo. as you can see here, it runs flawlessly. perfect timing, no knock detection, builds boost VERY fast.... etc....

and runs a bit faster than 0-25MPH

and that MPH, by the way, is me rolling into the throttle for the first 2.5seconds.

vwdave

This is such a weird problem, I dont even know where to start.

The only things I can possibly think of, is maybe you did something dumb like have a line in the wrong spot or something dumb.

Or possibly your turbo is leaking oil and shooting it into the intake and its trying to hydrolock.

Who knows. I would have to actually look.

Kingtal0n

One more thing. the very first rocker on the driver side, piston number 1, shot a STREAM of oil from the moment it started to when I shut the motor off. NONE of the other rockers did that, they barelly dribbled oil down. it was just that one... very inconsistant.. eh ?

TechSmurf

Aren't the lifters supposed to meter oil? Sounds like that one's shot.

Kingtal0n

While it does seem like that, the problem doesnt feel like its JUST one cylinder, its definetelly ALL of them when the problem occurs during WOT. I could unplug 2 spark plugs and still spin my tires before this, now It feels like Ive left out 7 plugs/wire and im running on 1 cylinder during WOT. seriouselly. i mean look at the datalog...

I think I have a good plan to fix this. Im going to find a 1-piece rear main block, and use the factory roller setup inside of it. Im going to buy myself a new crank (this ones probably SHOT from running without oil) and transfer all of the rest of my "things" from this 2-piece block to the 1-piece block. As far as I can think of, it should all drop right in, except the crank (which is being replaced with new) right?

Other option is... Part it out on ebay. anyone want to buy a complete twin turbo setup for $1600? taking offers... LOL

280Z28

The only thing I can think of is the valves float if the lifters pump up too much, which happens with oil pressure (well, it can't happen with no oil pressure ) and with high rpm usage (at the where the lifters can't release the oil at the same rate it's sucking it in). Maybe your 7 lifters are clogged somehow, preventing oil from escaping them, or the holes to bring oil in are flooding them due to being damaged (misshaped) or something strange about the way the holes they sit in (don't know what to call them) are shaped? Either way, massive pump up with oil pressure, collapsing again with none.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Where is your fuel pressure guage/sender plumbed? How about the oil for the turbos?

Kingtal0n

Fuel pressure sender is plumbed in the Fuel rail, before the regulator (obviouselly)

Oil pressure sender is located in the T-fitting in the back of the block (by distributor) where it has always been, except now it feeds 2 turbos. Yes there are restrictors in the turbo's housings, it is cast into the turbos center sections, so I am seeing engine oil pressure not "turbo" oil pressure.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Yea, I meant oil pressure…

OK, I just reread this whole thing from the beginning, and I still think you’re barking up the wrong tree, but to be honest, you’re saying all sorts of somewhat contradictory things so I’m somewhat confused.

First thing, if you have leaks under boost you have blowby. If you have problems with the oil return you have blowby. If your finding new leaks faster then you can fix them you have blowby.

Have you done a leakdown test?

Just to make sure I have this clear, what is your oil pressure at:
Cold idle
Cold cruise
Cold (cool WOT, I’ll understand if you don’t want to do this)
Hot idle
Hot cruise
Hot WOT
(what is your coolant temp when it’s hot?)

My guess right from what you’ve said is that you’ve got some broken rings/ring lands or maybe a head gasket, possibly some crap in the pan/pickup and that the reason for the pressure differential across the lifters is that you’re taking the oil from the back of the cam oil galley.

Kingtal0n

Originally posted by 83 Crossfire TA

First thing, if you have leaks under boost you have blowby. <b> not boost, just any high RPM. with 20" of vacuum cruising at 5000RPMS in 1ST gear (25MPH?) it blows oil all over the place. its an RPM associated leak.</b> If you have problems with the oil return you have blowby. <b>no problems there anymore, brazed fitting fixed that </b> If your finding new leaks faster then you can fix them you have blowby. <b> just 1 leak, somewhere in the back of the motor, that I cannot pin point. I have a puddle of oil building between the intake plenum and the distributor. I am thinking... intake manifold seal? </b>

Have you done a leakdown test? <b> yes, before the engine was knocking I made less than 11% on all cylinders. this was when the motor actually had oil in it, and wasnt making power </b>

Just to make sure I have this clear, what is your oil pressure at:
Cold idle <b> 1000 RPM cold startup, 60PSI </b>
Cold cruise <b> 55-75PSI </b>
Cold (cool WOT, I’ll understand if you don’t want to do this) <b> 75PSI~ </b>
Hot idle <b> 800RPM in gear, 12PSI </b>
Hot cruise <b> 2000RPM 4th gear 80MPH = 28-35PSI</b>
Hot WOT <b> from 40-60PSI </b>
(what is your coolant temp when it’s hot?) <b> never goes over 190*F Never goes below 184*F</b>

My guess right from what you’ve said is that you’ve got some broken rings/ring lands or maybe a head gasket, possibly some crap in the pan/pickup and that the reason for the pressure differential across the lifters is that you’re taking the oil from the back of the cam oil galley.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

To be honest with you, this doesn’t entirely agree with what you’ve said and tried to diagnose earlier. If you’re not consistent it’s just about impossible for someone to diagnose something over the net, since we have to rely on what you saw and reported. For that matter, how do you know that it “blows oil all over the place” with 20” of vacuum at 5000rpm? 1, you had to accelerate to that point, if you got to 3K you had to accelerate to get there, and 2, high rpms/low loads can cause oil control problems even when everything else is OK, it’s the source of a lot of the oil control recalls with the gen 3 engines.

“actually had oil in it?” What does that mean?

11% leakdown is in the “this engine is AFU but you could probably get away with running it for a little while like this.” Most people put “fix it now” at between 12 and 15%. To be honest, if I saw 11% leakdown on any of the cylinders I woudn’t be wondering why you’re having oil/crankcase problems at al.

What I said before, I was right. I doubt that it’s a headgasket problem if you get the same leakdown in all the cylinders, but unless you’ve messed up a valve in every chamber you’re having some sort of ring/piston problem.

Kingtal0n

When i said "when it had oil in it" i meant when there was oil in the oil pan. at some point, it all leaked out, and the motor ran good. it ran that way long enough to destroy the bearings in the motor, so now it knocks. but it runs good without oil. I filled it back up, and now it runs crappy again.


Crossfire, I could go outside right now, and empty my oil pan (save 1 1/2 quart) and the motor would run FLAWLESSLY until it blew.

Im going to probably build a different motor, get a new crank, etc.. and go from there. at this point, its my only option, other than selling it for parts.

Damon

King- I've read this thread since you first posted it. I really feel bad for you. This sounds like such an awesome low-buck combo, but you've had this unfortunate incident with the valvetrain/lifters for some reason. Obviously, you don't want to try to re-use this valvetrain. You're SOOOOO close to a bucks-down butt-kicking combo here I can almost taste it. I WANT this thing to work for you. If I could make jsut ONE suggestion to you it would be this....

Forget the roller cam crap.

Yes, I said it. It's more complication for very little gain, and it obviously has a down-side, as you have found out. Nothing wrong with roller cams, but they are costly and only give a slight benefit over older flat tappet cams.

Rebuild the bottom end, salvaging what you can. Get rid of the roller cam and shove in a cheap, reliable flat tappet hydraulic cam. Heck, even a $89 Summint cam and lifters set will work fantastic for what you are doing. Something with about 214/214 duration @ .050 on a 112 LSA. Reliable, simple, readily available, easy to set up, no special parts required, easy on the valve springs and OH, BY THE WAY, dirt-cheap. So what if you give up 25 HP to a roller cam? Turn the boost up another 1/2 a pound.

You've done all the hard work. Now just build the engine simple, straight forward and reliable. No way out teeny bopper trick stuff.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

With boost, chances are that you break even or even come out ahead with a well designed flat tappet. That turbo makes low lift conditions more important/more useful, and a lot of flat tappet designs lift the valve off the seat faster then a comparable roller would (after the valve is moving the roller will accelerate the valve faster allowing for a greater total lift). In addition, a lot of roller cams are likely to open the valves in stockish heads past their port stall point. You could actually take this pretty far if you wanted to, have the valve seats and port work done to optimize low lift conditions…

Kingtal0n

Well its a shame at this point. I did the roller conversion with the twin turbo setup, and your right it really wasnt worth it now that I look back.

But looking forward, I have a roller cam, and all of the required accessories (minus working lifters, i suppose) already that I just got brand new. If i was going to keep this whole setup instead of just ditching it, I would surelly want a new block and new crank because this block / crank has had it. thats a whole lot of work and Ive only got another 2 weeks before school again, so i dont think its going to happen...

I think im going to just sell it, as is, or part it out. whichever comes first... Ill advertise it in the local ads for a few weeks, and in the mean time ill just grab my friends 240SX for a daily driver.

blah. then again, i suppose i could sell all this roller cam crap and do (YET AGAIN) another on-motor valve spring change and replace the engine bearings with the motor in the car (pull it up and pull the pan, unbolt mains / rod caps replace bearings re-assemble... RIGHT??? WRONG? ugh... ) what a friggin PAIN! arrrggg....

Xceleratemaro

your my insperateion to do this project...

please dont give up..i just majored in welding and i wanted to do this same thing soon ...keep with it man it will pay off

good luck

chris

92blue

iTrader: (1)

Dude, you have gone through so much trouble and work on your car...don't sell it. I seriously think you are going to regret it after you buy yourself a 240, and end up buying another camaro. Then you'll just have to start all over.

Give me a call this week. I can get a roller long block for $80. Sell the crank on Ebay for $50 or so, and you picked up a block with a factory lifter setup for $30.

I think you need to take a step back and see what kind of setup it is that you REALLY want to run. Since I've known you, you have run carb, tpi, n/a stealthram, and a stealthram with turbos. Before all that you had crossfire, tbi, and a carb with a roots blower I believe. Anymore that I'm not aware of? You change your dam intake everytime you brush your teeth!!

Build your car with a set goal in mind. I'm not saying not to make any changes once you set your mind, but you wander all over the place.

After spending 45 + hours this week on ONE freakin programming assignment, I am catching up with my hw, and I see myself having some spare time throughout the coming weeks. I'm gonna be assembling the heads and preparing all I can. As soon as finals are over, the same freakin day actually, that 305 is coming out, I'm setting it on fire, and I'm gonna dance around it. :lala:

I would really hate to see you sell your car, or part it out. If you do feel thats what you want to do, give me a call. I'll buy a couple of things from you.

Kingtal0n

hey guys, just thought I would get back to everyone since its been a while. So far I havnt touched the car... Ive had 2 people come look at and both want to buy it too. One is offering a trade/cash deal, the other is offering just below what im asking for it. Ill probably take the trade though, if by the end of this week I cant get a better deal.

guy has a 94' camaro, Lt1/6-speed, leather, power, a/c etc... with some basic mods (headers, exhaust, cai, cowl hood, suspension lowered/modded, injectors / pump, etc..) it seems to make some pretty good power for what I know of Lt-1's. even comes with dark tint and a nice system installed oh yeah and he wants to give me $1500 cash. ill probably take it...

in other news I bought another car. I jumped on the 240SX bandwagon this time, I found a near-mint Nissan 240SX 1992' with NO power option (perfect!) white color (rare!). It is an S13 chassis, and in Japan the body style is called the "sylvia" here in the USA it comes with a 2.4Liter truck motor, but in Japan it comes with a turbo 2.0Liter called the SR20DET. a common thing around here is to buy a front clip from japan from the Sylvia (they are common there like civics are here) and basically take the motor/tranny/rims/suspension/body kit etc.. from the clip and install it into the 240 (my USA version) the great thing is the motor comes stock with 200horsepower, and everything bolts right up to my car.. no fabrication! and there is a local nissan 240 club to me (miami area) with which many of them are using this motor (stock internals/head/cams) making 330+RWHP (yes rear wheel these are Rear wheel drive cars) which in a 2650Lb vehicle (mine is a little less, that weight figure is with options/sunroof) feels like 500 horsepower in a camaro (ask me how i know!) So this is probably where my next project will take me, (either that or a skyline RB25DET swap! but thats a bit more $$) So we will see, theres your update!

89JYturbo

I can't believe you gave up already!

The LT1 Camaro trade sounds sweet though. At least you aren't going all import.