Kingtal0n

Are the way to go. I want one. Just went for a drive with somone who had a nice 25 shot progressive to 200 shot. very very evil. starts out slow, easy, nice, felt very good. felt almost like a
supercharger or turbo building boost...

now im very curious whos running one and what they paid and just how practical are they? You would think more people would run them considering they obviouselly reduce the strain of the motor by removing that sudden hit. you can shoot the stuff right off idle...

CrazyHawaiian

I'm looking into this as well. Getting ready to rebuild my engine and I want it built for top end power (boosted). It just fits my style of driving better, which would be very rare off the line races, and more top end freeway races. When I finally get a drivetrain strong enough to handle hard launching, I will be looking into a progressive nitrous system to get me into boost faster @ the 1/4 mile strip. I want to spray 25 - 50 shot progressive at the very low rpm's in each gear. I want it to cut out as soon as I'm on boost. Should get me into my powerband faster for better 1/4 mile times.

The spray at low rpm's can really help cars with high rpm powerbands. My friend proved this to me once with his Nissan 240sx. He ran 16.8 all motor (LOL!), but with a 40 spray at the low rpm's in each gear he posted a 14.2 .... pretty nuts. I mean still slow as heck, but it was amazing how different the car performed when the spray pushed it into the powerband right away.

I just dont like the idea of a big shot of nitrous at high rpm's. Dont trust it. The progressive spray seems alot safer (then again, this is just how I 'feel' dosnt have any real world bearing).

aziroc

hmm. that sounds interesting. who makes it? cuase the only think i know of is liek what im getting and it a dual stage nirtous so i can do 100 off the line and 200 once i get traction aka 3rd

but im thinking about going the NX version of the NOSsle way, so only think i have to worry about is air into the engine, and this way makes sure each cylinder gets the even amout of nitrous.

Kingtal0n

I did a little searching and found out the "nitrous mastermind" from summit is like $280 and will add progressive nitrous to a pre-existing nitrous system. I looked around and also found out the progressive nitrous is actually a box that "cycles" the N20 Selenoids, causing them to open and shut rapidly to limit N20 flow, progressivly opening up to max flow.

this apparently reduces the life of the selenoids, but they are supposed to be easy to rebuild and cheap too.

the nitrous mastermind also controls RPM Points and safety switches and the like. check it out on summit, i forgot to copy the link...

sleepybu

if you want to soffen the hit, use a -3 nitrous line from the nitrous selenoid to the plate that is about twice as long as the fuel line (fuel selenoid to plate)

89ProchargedROC

25-50 shot is too small of a shot to use a progressive system on, it is not their intention. For what you are describing to want to do you only need a window switch:

set the rpm you want the nitrous to activate
set the rpm you want the nitrous to deactivate



honestly, this is no flame to you....but do some more searching. The nitrous mastermind by jacobs is GARBAGE. I'm not a nitrous guy but i have heard many many many MANY horror stories about that thing. I hear the NOS one works well and i also remember that the NOS version is actually just a copied version of someone else's with their name on it to probably help with sales

Bobalos

IMO, I would stay away from it. I have used one & it worked well @ first, but as the noids started to wear in, it seemed to be rather flakey. It was on a small tire, box nova, & we needed to bring it in slow or it would blow the tires away. It was an NOS box, btw.

What we started getting was hit & miss detonation. I can only guess it was the noids wearing out. I suppose that a rebuild would have fixed it up, but its not worth it, IMO.

What we ended up doing was adding a second plate, & just brining it in in 2nd gear. works fine last LONG time.......

Probably what we should have done, was put more tire in it & brought both systems in @ the launch.


BW

12 Sec GTA

How big is your budget?


For the money, the Jacob's unit works well... But, if you have the $$, get the F.R.E.D. from NX... It's a bad *** controller.. best on the market. (around $500 though..)

B4Ctom1

alot of the progressive controllers Ive seen pulse a dedicated set of selenoids, I dont like that.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Well, I ran one (Jacobs NMM) on my ’97 WS6 with my NX GenX setup and I was very happy with it. I mostly ran it because I didn’t like the thought of the spray just being on or off, especially since I did not run on super sticky tires (nittos) and a 6 speed. The thing I like about the NMM as opposed to most other setups is that the rate is proportionate to the rpm, so not only does it come in gradually but it always makes the same power at the same rpm every time. Other controllers are time based, so if you lift to regain traction, when you put your foot back in it you start the progressive rate all over again, and time based stuff never works well no the street.

Like it’s already been said, it’s really sneaky. You can set it so there is no obvious hit and it makes the spray very useable on the street. With a 75-125hp shot I ended up rigging a light that pulsed with the solenoids just to make sure that it was working when testing it, I couldn’t feel it, it just felt like a fast NA car. At the track on street tires I saw 7mph and .82 seconds with either the 75 or 100hp jets in it and a really gradual hit. I tried it with up to 175hp pills and was able to tune it to come in gently enough not to blow away the radials (gained something like 15mph over NA, I’d have to find the timeslip)

It’s pretty cool, and kills a bunch of birds with one stone (mostly safety issues). It’s got a **** to set the turn on rpm and full on rpm, so if you set them for say 3000 and 5000, you’ll start getting spray at 3000rpm and you’ll be spraying the full shot at 5000. It’s got a built in rev limiter and shuts off the N2O 150rpm lower then that (I think, don’t have the manual in front of me, but it’s just enough that you don’t have to worry about hitting the limiter spraying). With the on and off settings it serves the function of a window switch. It also has a timing retard setting, which retards the timing by the setting on the **** only when the spray is turned on. Another really cool thing is that it controls the fuel and N2O solenoid separately and has a trim **** so you can set it to deliver more or less fuel while it’s ramping up to the full shot (ramp the fuel delivery at a different rate), a really cool tuning feature if you’re into getting everything perfect.

If you want a full shot (say you’re on slicks at the track) you just set the full on RPM lower then the turn on RPM and it will not pulse the solenoids. I usually drove around with the 175 hp pills in all the time but set the full on rpm to much higher then I’d ever see (I think the max is something like 14000rpm) so I’d only see roughly half the power on the street

One really nice surprise is that even with a big shot, by limiting how much you’re spraying when you can’t really use all the power a bottle lasts MUCH longer. Between it and the 15# bottle I was running I could usually go 3 track sessions and assorted “tuning” on the street between bottle fillups without actually running low.

The only real problem with it is Jacobs generic problem, that they overengineer their solutions and people end up having problems when they don’t understand them. If you run big solenoids like the NX ones you’re best off running relays for each solenoid (that’s what I did, so I was never triggering a real load, just the relays that turned the solenoids on and off), so you end up running one set of wiring for each solenoid. If you’re running smaller ‘noids like the NOS setup you don’t need relays. You also have to tie in to the ignition trigger wire so that it can get it’s rpm signal and retard the timing (easy with an ignition box, that’s just the wire to the coil that the box gets installed in). It also has a separate connection for a fuel pressure safety switch, if you want to use that (disables the N2O system at the controller if the fuel pressure drops, it’s just as easy to wire the safety switch into the solenoid relay circuilt).

BTW, I might be interested in selling it since I don’t race that car anymore (and much more interested in turbos these days), and took the N2O system off the car and packed everything up in boxes in sitting in my office. If someone is interested, contact me privately (and I’ll go looking for things like the manual, I think I’ve got stuff like the mounting brackets that I’ve never used…). I think I only used it for about half a season.

25THRSS

Bringing this post back from the dead, I am interested in the nitrous mastermind, but there is only one drawback for me. Lets say you have the nitrous set to start at 3k rpm and full shot at 5k, since it is rpm based, won't it be doing that every time you shift? So you will never have the full shot the entire time in any gear correct? It will be pulsing not only off the line, but crossing the finish line as well. That sucks IMO!

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

Yes, you are correct. I'm using Shnitz (sp?) box. They make nitrous stuff for bikes. It is time based, but you have an option of wiring it up as a "wait and hold" system. By doing this, if you lift and get back into the throttle (like when I shift my 6spd) it'll remember where it left off and pick up there.

The box was $230 and it was the best investment I've ever made. That, and a FPSS. Not sure if the other boxes offer the "wait and hold" option, but this is the only one that I've found.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

And that’s exactly what was intended by the design. Do you have full power NA at 3000rpm? If you did your torque numbers would be through the roof, you’d be chasing detonation issues and your tranny wouldn’t live very long. 150hp at 6000rpm is 131 lb-ft. At 3000rpm that same 150hp is 263lb-ft. Torque = Cylinder pressure. Torque is what breaks driveline parts. Cylinder pressure is what breaks pistons and head gaskets. HP is what gets you your ET and MPH.

The whole object of this setup is to let you spray more where your engine and drivetrain can use it. Lets say you’re spraying 150hp worth, have it set to come in at 3000 to be full in at 5000rpm and your shift point is 6000rpm (you can use the NMM to set a shift light and a turn off point also). When you hit your 1-2 shift at 6K your rpm will drop to about 3200 (assuming that that is not below your stall speed or if you have your converter locked), where the NMM will drop the spray rate down to about 96 hp worth which is still about 158lb-ft of torque and will ramp up delivery to 100%, 150hp at 5000rpm… this all prevents things from breaking on the shift, loosing traction…

OTOH, if you wanted to it would be very easy to rig a microswitch on your shifter that would only allow the NMM to pulse the solenoids when the shifter is in 1st, and have them full open as long as the throttle is at WOT in the rest of the gears.

JPrevost

Here's an idea; stepper motor and remote bottle valve opener. Only issue would be the actual opening rate.
Another idea; electronicly adjustable pressure regulator for the nitrous. Believe it or not but the regulators for nitrous aren't all that expensive, finding one that can be made into an adjustable unit is another story. I bet you could use engine vacuum and rig something up but it would take some engineering knowledge to accomplish this.

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

Crossfire brings up a good point, but I'll never see 3000rpms when I'm racing. And if I did, then I'm not going fasting enough.

Another point, if his driveline can't take it, then he might want to think about not spraying. Or upgrading to something that'll take it.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

So you’re suggesting that you’re going to use a stepper motor and the bottle valve to regulate flow more accurately then something like a .020 jet will? Huh… REALLY?

And what do you plan to do for fuel?



I usually do



What does restricting your diet have to do with what rpms your engine is turning?

Well, I’m just addressing what was asked. What I used to do with my NMM was pop jets into the setup that are way more then I could ever safely spray (something in the >250hp range) and then turn down the full on point (can be set somewhere north of 10k rpm, a point that you’ll never see) until I was getting all the power that I could possibly use. If conditions weren’t as good I could turn it down a little, if they were or I was trying to smoke the tires at 65mph I could turn the **** the other way.

What I really like about the thing is that you can adjust the N2O to fuel ratio delivered, so that you could lean the fuel jet out for max power uptop but still have it deliver a slightly richer mixture closer to your torque peak helping control detonation.

Again, if you just want it for the launch, then wire it so it only works in 1st gear and the solenoids are full open the rest of the time.

JPrevost

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 83 Crossfire TA
So you’re suggesting that you’re going to use a stepper motor and the bottle valve to regulate flow more accurately then something like a .020 jet will? Huh… REALLY?

And what do you plan to do for fuel?

[/b]
Huh... YEAH. In all of the remote bottle valve openers I've seen they all use gear reduction to an extream. So with a stepper motor control similar to the iac you could theoretically control with excellent resolution. Not to mention if you had it hooked to a microprocessor with bottle temp and pressure you could effectively have a perfect flow control. Again, the biggest problem with this isn't the actual accuracy of flow, it's the rate of which it can be accomplished. Going from nearly no flow to full would take a few seconds at least .

As for fuel, that's the easy part. It's called dryflow . Use larger or extra fuel injectors with some code synced to the nitrous flowrate. I can't tell you how easy this is because I've never done it but in theory it all checks out.

Make sence now?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

No, not really (heh, seems like I’ve set out on a mission to pick on you tonight… sorry about that).

You’re attempting to use something that was never designed for metering to do some rather precise metering and trying to actuate it with something that will never achieve the rate of change that you need in a controlled manner at a reasonable cost.

Assuming that you put those 2 together into something that you get to work reasonably OK, then you’re faced with the lag time that 14-20’ of line will give you between when the valve moves and your engine sees the N2O. Not only is the lag time a problem, but without the pressure in the line as the valve gradually opens the N2O will evaporate and you’ll get gas rather then liquid at the nossle causing a whole new range of problems (the reason why racers run purge valves)

Assuming that you fix all that, you’ll have one hell of a time trying to synchronize your auxiliary fuel delivery to what is surely not going to be a linear increase in N2O both because of the imprecise valve and the lag line.

If you really wanted to do this, I’d suggest skipping messing with the bottle valve and instead rig the stepper motor with a needle and seat style valve which you will have some chance of getting some sort of usable curve from assuming that you can work out the stepper motor deal. Mount the valve right by the nozzle, and finally regulate fuel delivery proportionately to the pressure at the nozzle (either use the same scheme that a dry kit uses to add fuel or use a pressure transducer and an aux fuel ecm).

For a good model for the stepper motor/valve assembly you could look at gm IAC designs, the differences in their pintle designs and then probably even scale the whole deal down to something reasonable for the application… maybe use something like a q-jet metering rod assembly and possibly even making the whole deal a wet flow assembly.

I’d still keep the standard solenoids in the setup just as a safety.

I’m sure that I could make something work to do EXACTLY what you intend, but I honestly fail to see the point all together. Some heavy duty solenoids and a simple PLL circuit (or again, something like a NMM) would accomplish everything you’re trying to do (functionally) with only a fraction of the complexity and cost.

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

Typo, I meant "going fast enough".