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Organized Drag Racing and AutocrossDrag racing and autocross discussions and questions. Techniques, tips, suggestions, and "what will I run?" questions.
You every just think you had a build in mind to be told its not going to be what you expected... that's how i feel ... I thought i did a good amount of research and people say it wont even put down the HP i think it should be... Believe me i didnt build it for a all out race car if i did it wouldnt have been this combo...Guess time will tell?...
build is a 383 stroker fully forged 4 bolt main.
First Performance intake with a ported TB
113 alum vette heads ported and polished done by tpis flow 250 cfm
lpe219 cam
1.6 roller rockers,255 lph walbro fuel pump
edelbrock headers into a 3 inch y-pipe into a 4.5 mufflex exhaust
36 lb injectors,holley dual sync dist,holley HP EFI system,
700r4 built ,precesion 9.5 inch billet 2600 stall convertor
s60 rear by strange 3.54 gears all UMI suspension.
What was your expectation vs what others are reporting you should be getting ?
I was hoping for at least 350 rwhp....i know its an old school build much better parts out there...some say ill be lucky to make 300 rwhp looking for the car to run a solid mid 12s possible low 12s.. future plans will be to add a supercharger hense why i went fully forged...to be able to throw some boost at it...
Just finish the build, get it tuned and driving, and see what it does and have fun with it. Built cars are never done anyway. Most learning comes from being in the seat driving and figuring out what works and what doesn't, AND learning what you like in a car. There are a lot of people that would love my car on the first drive and be sick of it within 6 months. The right car is the one you enjoy spending time in.
I'm having the same struggle with mind. Over 20k into my car and it's not what I was hoping for exactly...just keep at it and turn it into what you do expect.
I'm having the same struggle with mind. Over 20k into my car and it's not what I was hoping for exactly...just keep at it and turn it into what you do expect.
I'm thinking it will be fine..but other people say it wont be wont im expecting
I'm thinking it will be fine..but other people say it wont be wont im expecting
It will never be what you expected. I was hoping for more power out of mine, but when it hit the dyno I was disappointed in the outcome. The money I've put into the suspension, I was expecting more out of it but it still feels sloppy and loose to me. Others say it's quick and handles amazing, but to me its just not what I was expecting. We are always hyper critical about our own vehicles. Just keep working at it.
The limiting factor I see are your Corvette heads; stock LS heads put that 250 CFM to shame...
If you want more power with a SBC invest in better cylinder heads; 300+ CFM options are out there.
If you add a supercharger later on you will make more power with better flowing heads.
The limiting factor I see are your Corvette heads; stock LS heads put that 250 CFM to shame...
If you want more power with a SBC invest in better cylinder heads; 300+ CFM options are out there.
If you add a supercharger later on you will make more power with better flowing heads.
doing some further research I found that lingenfelter used the same heads on there 383 builds over 400 hp and took there cars into the 11s im.happy with that especially for what I got the heads for.
do you have the low lift flow specs of your cylinder heads? While 250 CFM in today's world of LS/ Gen V LT engines is similar to stock numbers (and a matter of testing procedure, but that is an argument for another day), it is still not to bad for stock ported heads. For comparison, an AFR 195cc Street head flows about 280 CFM at .550 In lift. ( I used this number as your cam is a .560/.560 with 1.6 Ratio Rockers).
Now, a quick and dirty formula for calculating flow potential of a cylinder head using "Hot Rod" power numbers, as in flywheel horsepower with no accessories, headers, and no air induction system, is generally CFM x 2 = Horsepower potential. utilizing the formula, you should expect the power potential of the cylinder heads to be roughly around 500 "Hot Rod" horsepower. That Sounds GREAT!, but there is a catch.
You are utilizing a "Long Runner" intake design. The intake runner length is one of the MOST important factors in determining the peak torque point in the RPM range, and inadvertently, the peak horsepower number. You will find a large amount of torque down low in the RPM Range. However, you did choose one of the best "Long Runner" intake designs for a Small Block Chevy, and it shouldn't hinder power up top, but don't expect it to help either.
Next, you are using a cam that accentuates to low end torque production of the intake manifold, thus don't expect large horsepower numbers up top, but TONs of torque down low/ 3,000-4,000 range. You do have an advantage, however, in the form of cubic inches. The slight overbore and increase in stroke length should improve cylinder fill volume by both unshrouding the valves and increasing total capacity.
So don't get caught up in peak horsepower numbers, especially in a fun street car. GM designed the TPI design to make low, usable torque to make the Third-Gens snapping and fun without the need for high horsepower numbers. For more of a engine dyno comparison to the FIRST intake on a 10:1 383, it should be similar to the TPIS intake in this video, abet you have a lot less cam timing, thus exagurating more low end torque and less horsepower after peak torque.
I know the first performance intake the runner length is 2 inches shorter then a tpi intake that helps a little.. In building this I wanted a fun street car with a decent ET for what it is..the trans is built 700r4, 2600 stall s60 dana rear with 3.54s and using a Holley hp efi system were hoping for mid to low 12s and eventually it will be supercharged I had the motor built thinking that way..4 bolt main fully forged right around 9.8 to 10.0 compression it should be a fun car..I hope lol
There is no doubt that it will be a fun street car! While it is a single pattern cam, it will still make the car a blast on the street and should still perform well when under boost. Just don't be to discouraged when the motor is a little "tame" and doesn't make crazy power up top. I think you will struggle to put the power to the ground when you flash the converter on a good launch. Unless you have a sticky tire.
You can discuss your engine output in one breath but the vehicles overall drag strip performance is something else.
As for your engine, 250 CFM of port flow can realize nearly 500 HP at the crank as seen on an engine dyno. The 219 cam is a little small for this though. For output numbers to brag about, something in the 480-490 HP range, 283/287 advertised on a tight LSA of 106 will get it done. Whether that will work for you is another matter. That's the kind of approach I would take if drag racing or open road racing was the primary purpose with street driving second.
As for track perfomance, while the engine is what provides the propulsion, it's all the rest that produces the results. It's very easy for a chassis with good suspension and gearing to beat a more powerful combination that isn't suited to the track.
Once you lay down a few passes, you'll see which direction you need to go should your results not meet up with your expectations.
If you can get it to stick, I can see mid 12's easily. I did it with less. Little Vortec heads on a 350, a 224 @ .050" cam and transmission and gearing similar to yours pushed that portly chassis (3650 lbs) to nearly 109 MPH too. ET's would have probably improved by a couple of tenths had I been able to get my 60' closer to my personal best of 1.7 flat rather than the slick spinning 1.9 I was seeing.
You might not be bummed at all!
Thanks guys. I copied lingenfelter his lpe383 build only difference was the intake he used a super ram...our car with driver is 3400 lbs and that was with a 350 tpi and all emissions thats gone plus cast heads I bet we lost 100 lbs.. we have a bullet proof rear with the strange s60 dana so its getting MT ET street SS drag radials should hook...if not I'll throw on a set of slicks..car has all umi suspension relocated torque arm too..hopefully we get it back soon the rear is getting installed
Your 383, especially with that cam, is going to make a ton of torque and probably put your converter to the test. Lightweight(ish) too. It'll take your drag radials and possibly some shock/strut adjustability to get it to hook. Air bags helped my cause considerably but I still need a more drag orientated shock and strut arrangement to get the weight transfer needed.
Should be interesting and I'm looking forward to your results.
350 whp? Seems abit optimistic but i would have expected over 300. But then again last one i did with afr 180’s which are similar to ported 113’s, hotcam 218/228 clone and big tube tpi intake only made 272 whp. But it had blowby so im not sure it was as healthy as could be. I thought 300 whp would have been easy.
my stealth ram 383 at 11:1 and alot more cam with afr 195’s made 392 heat soaked. Was 11.4 car at 3400 lbs
300 whp will get you along way with the proper setup. Gotta 60 ft in the 1.6-1.7 range. 254 whp got me 12.90’s at 3300 ish? Maybe. 308 whp ls1 at 3550-3600 lbs went 12.52 at my track at 108 mph.
Your 383, especially with that cam, is going to make a ton of torque and probably put your converter to the test. Lightweight(ish) too. It'll take your drag radials and possibly some shock/strut adjustability to get it to hook. Air bags helped my cause considerably but I still need a more drag orientated shock and strut arrangement to get the weight transfer needed.
Should be interesting and I'm looking forward to your results.
Thank god we went with a vigilante precesion 9.5 inch billet convertor I hear there strong...
350 whp? Seems abit optimistic but i would have expected over 300. But then again last one i did with afr 180’s which are similar to ported 113’s, hotcam 218/228 clone and big tube tpi intake only made 272 whp. But it had blowby so im not sure it was as healthy as could be. I thought 300 whp would have been easy.
my stealth ram 383 at 11:1 and alot more cam with afr 195’s made 392 heat soaked. Was 11.4 car at 3400 lbs
300 whp will get you along way with the proper setup. Gotta 60 ft in the 1.6-1.7 range. 254 whp got me 12.90’s at 3300 ish? Maybe. 308 whp ls1 at 3550-3600 lbs went 12.52 at my track at 108 mph.
I sure hope it's better then 12.9s but who knows convertor is matched to the cam specs 2600 stall.. rear is a s60 dana rear from strange and 3.54 gears..we need a good tire were getting a set of MT ET SS drag radials..we also had the TB ported to 76mm vs the stock 71mm TB first comes with...it will be fun to see hopefully it will surprise us..car has alot of nice parts..holley hp efi system, 36 lb injectors walbro 255 lph fuel pump all umi suspension torque arm relocated..its going to be a learning experience but should be fun.
350 whp? Seems abit optimistic but i would have expected over 300. But then again last one i did with afr 180’s which are similar to ported 113’s, hotcam 218/228 clone and big tube tpi intake only made 272 whp. But it had blowby so im not sure it was as healthy as could be. I thought 300 whp would have been easy.
my stealth ram 383 at 11:1 and alot more cam with afr 195’s made 392 heat soaked. Was 11.4 car at 3400 lbs
300 whp will get you along way with the proper setup. Gotta 60 ft in the 1.6-1.7 range. 254 whp got me 12.90’s at 3300 ish? Maybe. 308 whp ls1 at 3550-3600 lbs went 12.52 at my track at 108 mph.
What's a reasonable % drivetrain loss with these automatics. Can we say 20%.
A couple of dyno runs gave 282 rwhp with stock Vortecs and 224 @ .050 cam in 2009. That street chassis, with cheap Monroe shocks, cheap 10" converter, 3.27 gear went 12.7x @ 106. 3700 lbs with a 1.71 60'. Not sure how that translates to CHP but not a whole hell of a lot by my reckoning. I'd think hemi's 383 could be making 100 HP more. So 80 more at the tire. That's gotta be good for bottom 12's don't you think? It'd be a good guess that your stealth ram 383 was making 525 to go 11's.
Last edited by skinny z; 06-22-2020 at 03:06 PM.
Reason: a
What's a reasonable % drivetrain loss with these automatics. Can we say 20%.
A couple of dyno runs gave 282 rwhp with stock Vortecs and 224 @ .050 cam in 2009. That street chassis, with cheap Monroe shocks, cheap 10" converter, 3.27 gear went 12.7x @ 106. 3700 lbs with a 1.71 60'. Not sure how that translates to CHP but not a whole hell of lot by my reckoning. I'd think hemi's 383 could be making 100 HP more. So 80 more at the tire. That's gotta be good for bottom 12's don't you think? It'd be a good guess that your stealth ram 383 was making 525 to go 11's.
Im hoping bottom 12s that would be great I know it's a decent combo...we shall see...I would be kinda bummed if it didnt..especially after what we spent on it...lol 🤣🤣
Yes 20% isnt far off. Locked 700r4 might even be closer to 16-18%.
stock bolt on ls1 rated at 350 flywheel probably 20 hp with headers and exhaust Untuned made 308 whp and went 12.5’s at 3600 ish lbs at 1200 ish ft density altitude. it went 12.11 at 3400 lbs in negative air density altitude.
my 3300-3350 ish lb iroc went 12.90’s with only 254 whp.
That combo def should be over 300 whp and welll into the 12’s at reasonable altitude. 1000-2000 ft
Yes 20% isnt far off. Locked 700r4 might even be closer to 16-18%.
stock bolt on ls1 rated at 350 flywheel probably 20 hp with headers and exhaust Untuned made 308 whp and went 12.5’s at 3600 ish lbs at 1200 ish ft density altitude. it went 12.11 at 3400 lbs in negative air density altitude.
my 3300-3350 ish lb iroc went 12.90’s with only 254 whp.
That combo def should be over 300 whp and welll into the 12’s at reasonable altitude. 1000-2000 ft
We live in NJ so we race at island and use some of that low cold DA in atco in November some nice negative DA ... I would be so happy if it did hit low 12s..
Lol you know Eric too I did reach out haven't heard anything yet. Lol
I literally just called him, picking up a hood from him tomorrow. By the way, it is freaking 95 degrees out lol. Out hear baking while scraping off the rubber from the burn out box...
I literally just called him, picking up a hood from him tomorrow. By the way, it is freaking 95 degrees out lol. Out hear baking while scraping off the rubber from the burn out box...
- Rob
Can you do me a favor when you see him ask if he has a rear or a whole 93 to 97 brake setup everything lol ...I tried getting him with no response thanks
I don't mean to bring the mood down here on this thread, but FYI, surprising news as of today, ATCO dragstrip (south jersey) is about to be sold, and turned into a car parking lot! what. in.the.actual. heck. !!!
jeeez
If that happens, that will leave Island Dragstrip as the only dragstrip in New Jersey. WOW
I don't mean to bring the mood down here on this thread, but FYI, surprising news as of today, ATCO dragstrip (south jersey) is about to be sold, and turned into a car parking lot! what. in.the.actual. heck. !!!
jeeez
If that happens, that will leave Island Dragstrip as the only dragstrip in New Jersey. WOW
Can't really blame the Capone's, to be fair. When they purchased Atco in 2012, they didn't make nearly as much as they hoped for over the years thereafter. With the Corona Virus outbreak, they, like many others, applied for and had gotten approved for the Payment Protection Plan implemented by the Government. However, this incident, I am sure, caused them to contemplate future earnings. After hearing how much Englishtown Raceway Park owners had received from a similar offer, it was a no brainer for the Capone family. It sucks... but, what can ya do.
It's just terrible for drag racing when they close strips. I moved to Wittmann (Surprise,AZ) so I could be close to Speedworld raceway, and street-drive my then-drag '90 RS, without having to put it on the trailer. I got located just 2 miles away, and could take back roads, right to the entrance gate. Then, several years later, they shut it down. Now the track just sits there, empty. So sad.
DR.K.
let me know if/when you might head up to Island dragway.
this weekend I am racing my car at the UMI autocross event way out in Pa, but the following weekend, (july 31, Aug 1,2) I might try to get the car over to Island dragway for Test and Tune
let me know if/when you might head up to Island dragway.
this weekend I am racing my car at the UMI autocross event way out in Pa, but the following weekend, (july 31, Aug 1,2) I might try to get the car over to Island dragway for Test and Tune
I'll definitely will let you know for sure..im.trying to get miles on it so we can break the rear end In so we can race it.
I did try and see if anyone else asked but the string appears to have been somewhat hijacked so I hope you don't mind me coming back to your build .
I have four questions:
Whats the dynamic compression? IE where does the intake valve close on the compression stroke?
Whats the quench? As someone noted the heads are so big it may not matter but is it zero decked?
Whats your cold air strategy? You may have one however I didn't see it in your post.
What have you done to reduce frictional HP loses? IE electric fan? Good oil pan and windage tray for example? You may have done all of those and thats good.
Doing this stuff just a bit off or flat out wrong can render your build disappointing. For me even street/strip engines are more than just a collection of parts.
I did try and see if anyone else asked but the string appears to have been somewhat hijacked so I hope you don't mind me coming back to your build .
I have four questions:
Whats the dynamic compression? IE where does the intake valve close on the compression stroke?
Whats the quench? As someone noted the heads are so big it may not matter but is it zero decked?
Whats your cold air strategy? You may have one however I didn't see it in your post.
What have you done to reduce frictional HP loses? IE electric fan? Good oil pan and windage tray for example? You may have done all of those and thats good.
Doing this stuff just a bit off or flat out wrong can render your build disappointing. For me even street/strip engines are more than just a collection of parts.
The motor was built with 9:8.1 compression no clue of those other things you asked i.told the company were we bought the short block.what heads and cam we were using they built us the short block told us which head gaskets to use to achieve that compression.. using the stock oil pan no windage tray...stock dual electric fans..this wasn't a all out race build it's a fun car to race on the weekends and go to shows...looking for mid 12s never built it for all out...
The motor was built with 9:8.1 compression no clue of those other things you asked i.told the company were we bought the short block.what heads and cam we were using they built us the short block told us which head gaskets to use to achieve that compression.. using the stock oil pan no windage tray...stock dual electric fans..this wasn't a all out race build it's a fun car to race on the weekends and go to shows...looking for mid 12s never built it for all out...
Good for you going electric that frees up 8-10-12 HP. Keeping oil off a crankshaft can free up up 5-10 HP more in a 350hp/350.
Dynamic Compression is complicated but worthwhile.
IMHO knowing and using dynamic compression is important on a street engine. You know one data point 9.8:1 static compression. The intake valve always closes AFTER Bottom Dead Center (ABDC) meaning some of the squeeze depends on just when the closing intake valve gets to that point at .050 lift closing and or .006 with some calculators. If you close that valve too late with to long a duration cam your bleeding away power and it won't perform the way you hoped. If on the other hand you close the valve too early now it'll run but you'll need octane boost. Get it just right and it'll perform like a champ on pump premium. In 60-70%?? of cases a performance cam works for most guys who don't compute this and run well. Sometimes the cam selection is just plain a miss and thats usually why. Odds are your cam is close enough. I myself like to know that number on every engine I stick my nose into and not hope the cam works, is I guess the best way to put it. It what Vizard means when he says the engine selects the cam, not vice versa.
Just right is to achieve a pump gas friendly max of say 7.9- 8.3:1 Dynamic Compression. You need your static number and have it. You may not know how far down the hole the pistons are though. You need detailed cam info and Intake Valve ABDC can be computed. Ask the machine shop if the surfaced the decks at all. They may have cleaned them say .004 but that's not zero decked. They'd take off .020-.025..
Wallace Racing has great calculators and Go Fast Math has a good dynamic one. MGI Speedware has a dynamite cam valve play tool.
Quench is just a good building practice.
Quench is important however I'm sure you'll fine, its cheap easy power but unlike a bad miss on the cam, it won't cost you power. Its simply put, how close the piston crown comes to the head. SBC stock deck quench with no machining would be I think .066-.061 or so. If you can "zero deck" the the block cut it down the .025 on each side IE the pistons now comes right to the top and get as close as .041-.037 or so the intake charge benefits, mixes better and burns better = I'm not guessing with say .041 quench you'll see a noticeable increase in power over an exact identical engine with .066 quench. Note also increase static compression.
These 3rd gens are tight under the hood. You want cold air getting into your set up. Air from outside, not under the hood. You also want to give it time to turn into the carb.
Regards working out a dynamic compression number might be doable for you. You know your piston TDC down the hole say .020-.025 and have the basic cam data including duration at .050 and LCA then the rest can be calculated and you can advance or retard a cam a few degrees to try and improve it.
Look up the LPE 219 cam for specs. They are hard to come by and there are two conflicting cam cards. Seems there was an early version and a later one. At least that's what the conversation here and some internet research revealed.
I was working my way through your list and a conclusion was never really arrived at. Deck height and quench are undetermined. But the 9.8:1 is fixed so that's a data point to work from. As I mentioned the IVC is different depending on the source of the info. Lingenfelter doesn't want to give it up. No advertised numbers so a DCR can't really be calculated. https://www.lingenfelter.com/product/L210035087.html
For what it's worth, based on the flow numbers for the heads in question, at 250 CFM, there's the potential for considerable output. Whether the 219 will curtail that is matter of speculation. But it WILL make a lot of torque!
05-15-2020, 02:39 PM
