1gary

How light can you get a third gen with lexon,glass front end,doors,deck lid,bumpers,with a BBC,glide,9",frame tied??.

1BADRZ28

iTrader: (2)

I'm 3104 25.5 bbc, glide, 9 inch with a glass hood,lexan front and rear glass and fiberglass rear decklid. the rest is steel and factory parts. . I'd say there is another 250 plus with doors and glass front end. I know with a glass nose and a few other things I could be 3020. I could lose a good bit more getting rid of the rear plastics and factory carpet also

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

with proper strut bars tied into the cage, you can cut quite a bit off the front. use a rack and pinion and everything in front of the kmember can be wacked off basically.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i would think in the 2700's with a driver in it.

1gary

I'm looking at the sportsman class NHRA 12.00 or IRHA 11.50 in the 1/4 and 7.50 in the 1/8 so to save numbers 11.30's.60' of 1.5's.
No cut floors,no box racing with two step's allowed.

Fiberglass and lexon allowed,so to go super light is one way to gain edge.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

11.30's with a bbc? you could do that at 4000lbs with a 10:1 mid 4xx" engine and street exhaust.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

By "sportsman class NHRA", do you mean "Sportsman ET", which has a 12.00 lower ET dial-in allowed? That's what I'm running. At our altitude, it's 12.75.

I've had my car as light as 3275 going down the track. With a tad over 200 in the driver's seat. I've run high-12.5's in the lightweight configuration at our altitude. Admittedly on very good air days.

At 3400 going down the track at sea level, it's gone 11.95.

This is my DD, by the way.

If I got it any lighter with all the stuff you listed and ran a Glide, I'd probably at least run 11.7's at sea level. With an all-GM internals 346.

I don't see the need for a BBC here. More weight, not necessary to run the number.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i agree with tim. a stripped down car with a simple carb'd junkyard 5.3 would meet the goals and leave lots of money in your pocket.

but i thought you didn't build cars? only bought already-built cars?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

That would be the class I race. But there is no 2 step aloud so im not sure where you heard that from. I wish it was as id like to use mine, but if I do other racers will wana kill me for it, exspecially if I win.

NHRA Sportsman ET

Listed below are the Rules
1. 12:00-19:99 ET 1/4 mile
2. No Delay Box
3. No Trans Brake
4. Single Stage
5. Line Lock Allowed
6. Slicks Permitted
7. RPM limiting device permitted
except down track controller
8. Two step prohibited

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

While division or track rules may differ, I have spent a lot of time going through the current NHRA rulebook on this. At least from the national NHRA perspective, that is NOT true.

What the NHRA rulebook does say is:
"Timed ignition-interruption devices (stutter boxes) prohibited. Starting-line and/or “high-side” rev limiters permitted. Two-steps, rev limiters, or any other rpm-limiting devices, legal unto themselves but altered or installed so as to function as a downtrack rpm controller, prohibited." Super Pro, Pro, Sportsman, Section 4A, Page 7

And:
"In categories that prohibit delay devices: ...Two-steps or other rev limiters that are adjustable by thumbwheel, replaceable chips, and the like may not be within the driver’s reach and will preferably be located outside the driver compartment." General Regulations, Section 20, Page 33, Electrical/Control, 8:2 (at the end of the paragraph)

So, unless your track or division prohibits it, a two-step is legal in Sportsman.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

sounds like they are trying to eliminate "throttle stop racing" with that rule. which i am all for. i think that is the worst thing to watch is throttle stop racing.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I need to be able to run 12.75 or quicker tomorrow to qualify for the class I'll be running in. I had hoped to have the '57 running by now, which should be able to run that easily, but that's a different story.

Short of a nitrous kit, the easiest way to reduce ET is to reduce weight. I pulled out passenger seat, rear seats, rear cargo cover, rear carpet, rear storage box, plastic rear panel, spare tire & jack, windshield washer reservoir, hood mat, and high beam head lights (class requires head lights, otherwise I'd pull the low beams as well). All told, that comes to 130 pounds. I didn't take off the door panels or dash pad, although I considered it. Could also take out the stereo. I was going to take the front carpet out tonight, but I couldn't get the driver seat to go forward enough to get to the back bolts - that, I figure, is a good 15, maybe 20 pounds.

I also fabricated a little heat shield for the air filter to keep engine compartment and radiator heat away from it (the filter sits in the left front corner of the engine compartment - right behind the removed high beam).

Last race two weeks ago I had about 80 pounds of that in the car, when it was running high-12.8's. For whatever reason, the car always seems slower for that race series. I also had at least 5 gallons more gas in the car (and it was bargain brand premium, not major brand like I usually run). I had hoped to run more of that gas out this week (was out of town all last week), but I'll get some race unleaded at the track tomorrow and put about a gallon of that in before 1st pass.

So, hopefully, with the reduced weight, air intake heat shield, high beam removed (direct fresh air to the air filter), early morning air, typically better track, and staging as shallow as humanly possible, I should make the qualifying cut tomorrow. If it doesn't run the 12.75 1st pass, I'll start taking out the door panels, dash pad, stereo, console, and may cut out the front carpet...

1gary

I'm sorry.I should have said this first.I still have a pc of the parts business I've been telling you guys about.But I have retired from the racing part of the partnership I've told all you guys about.Now I am researching a sportsman ET car to have fun doing rounds.A retirement ride open trailer-ed race car only for myself.And I do not want to return to a 9.90 car.On purpose limit the car for NHRA to a tad under 12.00 or 11.50 for IHRA. Now if I run faster than 12.00 or 11.50 it involved roll cages,running against 9.00 cars being the car that is going to be chased.My whole racing career I have shod one of the fastest if not the fastest car in the class.I do want to do easy rounds with this car covering the numbers without much trouble.The BBC torque for the 60' numbers as as light as I can make the car too and considering a 3th gen for the areo for the MPH part of it.Looking at redistrictor plate racing to keep the ET and maybe the top haft MPH part of it.Build the racing edge in the light wt of the car without tube frame component part of it.Again can't cut the floor board.Can't go faster than 135 mph without a roll bar.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i am not bracket racing minded at all.... but seems like you would just toss a mild sbc in there? would be good for 11.50's all day long, and you wont have as many headaches as putting a bbc in there. its also lighter than the bbc. i would save some money in that area and dump it into the chassis/drivetrain stuff instead.
at the end of the day you still need a good r/t from you AND the car, consistency, and run be able to run 12.00/11.50.

1gary

Yeah,you know I'm not much different than anyone else thinking I still have some 5.0's on the tree left in me.LOL.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

so, you're telling me you want a 135mph capable car limited down to 11.50/12.00? or a car that will run 11.50 @ 135? cause those are two different things. you may want to look at the msd 7531 box and what it can do for you with a timing curve. it can pull timing as a function of time, you could activate it off the brake light switch.

i still don't think you need a bbc for this, but what do i know?

1gary

It can't go faster than 135 in the 1/4.

Really because the track it will be mostly raced at is 1/8 the mph would be in the high 90's.Most of the race ET wise would be in the first 60'/330',then mph to close the deal.
I've been told the restrictor plates does somewhat build torque which converts to ET.The other haft I have to be sure to cover in mph without breaking out of the class which would be 7.50 in the 1/8.
Correct me if in your opinion I'm wrong,but I do think the wt and areo are two keys in this situation.
I'm in the research part right now and you opinion does count big.

1gary

It is also true where you guys have seen me post that I buy only rollers.If the right deal came along that is what I would do here too.Thing is what I am looking for is more towards going back to my roots here.No business pressures or sponsors tell me what we(I) have to do.No commitments other than to myself and giving credits to the people/forums that helped me along the way.Just do the right thing for all the good people I have around me supporting me with info.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

won't a restrictor plate build torque at the hit and cause a restriction on the big end? seems that would do the opposite of what you want it to do. i think high 90's will be tough at 7.50 without a throttle stop, which you can't run.

a trick that some folks use in a lot of 6.50/7.00 type index classes: launch at full timing, pull timing a second or two into the run, then ramp timing back in over the next 4 or 5 seconds. this will slow the et down but still run good mph. 99-102mph is not uncommon this way in 7.00. doing this even more dramatically will dial you into a 7.50 range i'm sure. this fucnction in the ignition box can be activated via a brake light switch or whatever for a foot brake class. i think you can do 7.50 at 93-94 if you do it this way.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I agree, torque is the wrong way to do this. And, a restrictor plate would also be the wrong direction.

For instance, the LS1/4L60E Camaro doesn't have as good a 60' as the '57 with 396 did, but the Camaro both is quicker in the quarter (by about .3), and faster (by about 5 mph). So, a light car, with mild 60', with power that comes on at the top end, is the way to accomplish what you're talking about.

By the way, had it down to 3205 lbs going down the track today. Still had the front carpet and dash pad in, but taking out the door panels took out 20 lbs according to the track scale. Also think I still had too much gas left in it.

1gary

Matt I've been reading about that method on YB.Guys say it works.Just gotta build a drag log in test and tune with a weather station.
The situation with BBC's is getting harder to find a good deal.Well atleast with 454's and tall deck 427's.I think I'm finding for the yrs I've been away from the OEM's they have been getting used up.Sure you can still buy used 502's,but the pricing seems to be up there.My machinist friend suggested by the time you clean,machine,and check,a 454,you might as well buy a aftermarket block.I'm not quite convinced it's that bad yet.I still think I can build a 468 cheaply enough to make the torque and extra wt worth it.I've drawn a line in costs where I refuse to buy aluminum aftermarket heads for it.Instead get steel Merlin's or Iron Dukes.I have always been lucky to just trip over donors at a good price it seems so I have good cores around my shop in the open engine stands I have.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

keep us posted on the updates and once you get the car.

1gary

And yes I do very much want a LSx core in the shop as well.When I say a core I mean a used take out engine.The price on those engines aftermarket heads is still abit scarey.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

but you don't NEED aftermarket heads for an ls motor build! my engine is using ported stock castings!!! if my engine was in a 3000lb car it'd run 10.2's at 135 i bet! maybe quicker! my combo is as run of the mill as you can get, and you could even damn near duplicate the results with a stock bottom end 6.0.

bbc for all out racing sure, but for this type of build, it's silly not to use an ls motor.

1gary

Matt.Not putting words in your mouth.But what your saying is with the lighting parts I listed and a 6.0,the lightest I could get the car would be 3,000lbs??.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

no, that's not what i said. i said if you put my engine in a 3000lb car (mine weighs 3500 with me in it) it'd run 10.2's. the car with lots of attention to detail can get down to 2700lbs, maybe lighter (less driver). i refuse to have a cut-up race only car, so i have a lot of street equipment on mine, which is why it's hovering around more around 3200 (less driver).

why are you making this so complicated? buy thirdgen, buy 6.0, put cam in, go shred your 11.50 index class.

1gary

Oh for sure it's me.All those yrs all I had around me was Super Gas wt cars way over powered doing very low stress laps.It just makes it seem to me everything is so darn heavy.And yet I do not want to go back to that style of racing.Super Gas that is.Hell I'm even dropping my own personal wt to below 200lbs for the first time in 40 yrs.Yeah I got this thing about wt.........

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

mild small block will do what you need. If you wanted to go REALLY cheap I would do a vortec headed 355, around 10.5:1 and a decent hydraulic roller. this will get you pretty damn close to where you want to be. I would use a th350 with it too. easy/cheap to build and will help it get out of the hole. I usually buy the vortec 350 cores for about $300 and that's for one that runs.


FWIW my car with a 10 bolt, z28 wheels, no interior, all steel, all glass was about 2800lbs empty. I can't wait to see what it weighs once I start REALLY cutting weight out of it.

1gary

Yeah daddy.The other part of the reason for this race car only is I am so damm tired of having to deal with SCR's/DCR's for today's pump gas.I wanta hot rod.Reasonable priced over powered wt to power ratio hot rod.One because of the power to wt ratio I can race and not either have to think about blowing it up trying to get to my numbers and is bullet proof drive train.Just have to think about how to slow it down and cut good numbers on the tree while having fun.A smile by the 1/4 mile fun.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

What is the lightest anyone on here has got a third gen with stock glass and all factory sheet metal except a glass hood?

I was at 3150 with my 89 and a T56 with the good comp engineering sub frames, 6.0 liter and a moser 12 bolt. Wish it would have been lighter. I know a formula or a older no GFX body like Matt's will shed more of course. I had a stock K member and A arms. So there was weight to be shed with $$$, but i am not easy to justify the price of those parts. The rustang i have now is stupid light, but i want to build another third gen for drag if i can get it closer to what the mustang weights. It is about 2680 and i still have a steel hood and all the interior dash stuff for the AC is still in it.

My 89 had a heater and manual steering, the mustang has no heater HVAC box but has power steering. I really want to do a formula. Picked up a 89 formy but i am going t scrap it. Was free, but too rough to save. I think the aerodynamics of the firebird win over the camaro. Not much, but since i dont see that many on the road, it may be the future project.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

a few years ago i rolled across the scales at 2950 with no nitrous bottle in the car and about 1 gallon of fuel. thats with me in the car- all glass with a fiberglass hood. i figure it could have been another 100lbs+ lighter if i removed the rear bumper support, glide instead of th400, door crash bars, headlight doors/motors, trunk pulldown motor, cut bumper snouts off the frame, fuel cell instead of stock tank, and a few other things.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

That was a TA right? That's pretty good. The non Gfx bird is worth some for sure.

1gary

!!!!!

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

yea mine is a gta. still has the stock gfx and wing on it. they will not be getting removed.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

No way, could never do that to a TA.