AlkyIROC

Last week when power was dropping off, I thought I had the problem fixed with a loose crank mandrel but I was wrong. I fired the engine up last night and it seemed to run fine. First pass down the track today and something let go around the 1000' mark. Even during the burnout, there's didn't appear to be anything wrong. No unusual noises etc. There's pieces of con rod in the front of the belly pan. The crank mandrel is loose again and I stripped all the teeth off the fuel pump drive pulley. I do have video

I do highly suspect a balance problem but could be a failed rod bolt or main bearing from improper torquing. If that's the case, I have no one to blame except myself.

First video my girlfriend shot of the launch. Before the engine let go she decided to start filming the ground so I had to cut it short. It's a great side shot of the car launching and I've been playing it back and forth in slow motion to watch the car launch. The new double adjustable shocks were installed and I tightened up the front end so the wheelstand isn't very high and I only carry the front wheels for 30-40 feet.

http://www.streetfire.net/video/laun...11_2301736.htm

This is my in car camera shot of the same pass. I left the camera on until I got back in the car when the deck truck arrived. I've shortened the video considerably but left enough in to see me and the safety truck guy checking under the hood.

http://www.streetfire.net/video/in-c...re_2301739.htm

Pics. First pic shows parts in the oil containment pan. Second pic shows the hole in the oil pan. I still put oil down on the top end of the track but far less than if I wasn't using a pan.

A.Delaney

Wow! I would be sick to my stomach right now. All that time and money you spent to make it back to the track this season gone in seconds. How are you holding up? Whats the plan now?

AlkyIROC

I've broken a lot of parts in the last 10+ years. Even my girlfriend said I'm not acting freaked out about it. I go out expecting to break something.

Race season starts in May. I have 9 months to get everything back together. If nothing else, it's mental therapy to get it back together.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

dang that sucks! thats a kick square in the kibbles.

AlkyIROC

Oh and on that only pass I did, I cut a .003 reaction time.

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

Well that sucks :/

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

yikes...turbo lsx?

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

lol funny you mentioned that... there is a local guy who is building his 4th ls engine right now. (turbo car with a 91mm.) he's had some bad luck with it like the bbc in this thread.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

they all fail. make/model regardless.

AlkyIROC

Push any engine to it's limits and parts start to fail. 1000 HP out of an LS engine isn't exactly a high mileage engine.

I was out in the garage tonight. I wanted to install the 110 pound springs on the rear shocks before I put the back end up on jack stands.

I started into the teardown just because I wanted to see what else might be damaged. Pulling the rocker covers off, I saw a rocker sitting sideways under the stud girdle which isn't a good sign.

Pulled the girdle off, took off all the rockers and pulled all the pushrods. None of the pushrods are bent, at least not visibly but I did discover that a bunch of the Comp Cams Pro magnum rockers are seized up.

This is the first year that I'm running a belt driven vacuum pump. The Big M block has oil restricters for the top end. I highly suspect with the limited oil reaching the top end plus the crankcase being in a vacuum, the rockers starved for oil which caused them to seize. They seized up enough to hold valves open which hit the pistons causing con rods to break. My valve springs are set up for 330 pounds on the seat and 880 pounds open so they would have to be really seized to hold a valve open.

Once I tear into the engine a lot more, I'll get a better idea on the extent of the damage. I'm in no big rush so this may take a while. I got a funny feeling not much of the rotating assembly will be salvageable. Buy new pistons and rods again and keep the good ones for spares. Just hope the crank survived. The block I'm not worried about. It's still cheaper to put 8 new sleeves in it if required than to buy a new block.

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

Gotta hand it to ya---
VERY cool-headed about this!!!
I felt my heart sink into my stomach!!!

Yes sir, season is coming to an end, but you seem to be able to work all winter, get stuff done, & get results!!!

Best of luck

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

Sorry to hear about your luck....again. Did you ever post some pics of your containment pan or when you built it? Maybe I missed that thread but I'd like to view it.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Speaking of which, this thread was full of LSX pride, they thought they made 1200 HP from a stock short block 5.3 and it ended up being a damn 4.8, LOL:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/forced...agazine-5.html

They tried to break it with no success.

88TransAmGuy

iTrader: (3)

Damn man im sorry. I cant even imagine how that must feel. Id be torn if just a pulley on my new 350 went out!

greezemonkey

iTrader: (14)

awful awful to see, my condolences man... Why would you have doubts about the rod bolt torques though? You did replace all the rods with the new build didn`t you? The laboring sound it was making just before the smoke out is all too familiar.

I gotta say, I had a valve hang and it just chewed up the piston and valve tulip and bore, rod actually had a slight twist/bend in the beam, eagle H beam with 2000 bolts..OHH! it bent the crank at the middle main as well, I find it difficult to believe the valve sticking could do that to a rod.. I`m interested to find out what happened, I agree it was probably an oiling issue since this happened in just a handful of passes.

Btw the launch looks good almost got that wheelie out of it.

R.I.P 582

AlkyIROC

I wasn't trying for a wheelie but there were enough photographers around me expecting a big one. You can see a couple of them on the left through the windshield as I pull up to the line.

The DA shocks were set up 3 clicks from firm on compression and 3 clicks from soft on extension. The front shocks were tighter than last week to help slow the front extension. Watching the launch, it wasn't that bad a setting. When I watch the video in slow motion, there's zero tire spin off the line. Diff drops down squishing the tires and the tires dig right in. I might need a half pound more air in the tires. Traction that day was very good for a change. Walking the starting line before racing started and my shoes were trying to come off my feet.

Discussing the engine failure on DRR, it looks like the lack of oil to the rockers is part of the problem. The wrist pins probably have the same problem. Solution is to decrease the amount of vacuum. Also since my engine never really gets hot, I'll use a lighter grade of oil. Instead of 20w50, drop down to something like 10w30 or 15w40.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

did you have your bearing tolerances right on this engine to use 20w50? that is thick oil, and without enough clearance in the bearings/oiling system you may have problems getting oil to the top end.
i would think the oil pressure would stay the same, regardless of how much vacuum you were running.... so could excessive vacuum really hinder the oil getting to where it needs to go?
i do not think a valve could launch a rod. normally with a forged piston it just mushes the valve into the piston top and breaks the valve off. or punches through the piston. im thinking the piston would have to be pretty well ripped completely apart to lose control of the rod.
could a lack of oil have caused a wrist pin to seize up and break the rod?

AlkyIROC

Seized wrist pins normally cause a knocking sound. Sort of like piston slap.

My oil pressure light comes on when pressure drops below around 20 PSI. During the entire in car footage, the light never comes on at all. It's a big 2" red light in the dash. When I turn off the ignition at the finish line, power to the pressure light is disconnected so the light never comes on after that even after I stop.

It will be a while before the engine is out and on a stand to look at the bottom end.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

well, back to the 20/50 oil..... you may have had pressure, but was it FLOWING? you can get plenty of water through a garden hose, but if that water was thick like mud you may not get very much out to the garden where you need it. the spigot will still see the same amount of pressure, but your garden still isnt getting enough water. to get the flow back up, you would need to step up the size of the hose to a fire hose.
bearing clearance = size of hose

snooping around on the net real quick, i am seeing many rod failures due to seizing up on the piston. whether its truth or a bunch of speculation, i donno. but there is alot of people claiming it.
before your other engine let go, had you changed oils? was the same thing going on with that engine?

Shagwell

Wow, sucks to see this! - I've been there a time or ten; if you play much it will happen and you either have to take it as a learning experience or stop doing it. - The uneasy feeling of having been kicked in the nads is still there though, everytime.



As for oil, I run straight 50w in the nitrous combo and straight 70w in the blown combo. I set the mains around .003-.0032 and the rods around .0035-.0038; typically see around 70-80psi oil pressure, and I still run restrictors. - Every single time we've tightened the tolerances up and run lighter oil we've hurt bearings, so i just stick with what works. The heavy oil may be "giving up hp", but it doesn't give up nearly as much as trashed bearings do.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

.003-.0032 is plenty of room for 50w oil... but did Alkyiroc's engine have that much? i would be interested to know what everything measured out to in there, just for future knowlege. it is very odd to me that the rockers were seizing up as well as tossing a rod.

AlkyIROC

My tolerances were closer to .002" and may have been the issue.

Shagwell

Even with steel rods I like .0025-.003. With aluminums, .003 is an absolute bare minimum.

I was told for a lot of years that if we'd bring our tolerances down to around .002 and run thinner oil we'd make more power. Three crankshafts, 2 sets of rods, 1 complete engine, and many re-bearing jobs later I went back to looser tolerances and(knock on wood) haven't had a bearing problem since.



I will also agree that too much vaccum can easily cause a problem in a BBC, though it's usually a bottom end problem due to the vaccum helping keep too much oil in the valve covers. - That would make your rocker situation seem very odd. Ya'll would crap if you knew how old the harland rockers are on our blown combo, and they're sitting on a set of springs making around 360# of seat and just at 1200# open.

AlkyIROC

I still haven't pulled the engine yet but it does sound like a combination of problems. I'll probably have the machine shop put the rotating assemble together so all the tolerances can be checked and adjusted as required.

I found the invoice for the rockers. I asked Comp Cams how much it would cost to rebuild the rockers and they wanted the part number. The invoice is dated 2000 so I've had these rockers for 11 years. The part number is obsolete. CC doesn't even make them any more. They sell an updated version now with a different part number.

Not that it really matters. I have a new set of Comp Cams shaft rockers to install now. They look just like T&D rockers. I didn't like the way Jesel did their shaft rockers.

Shagwell

Shafts are really nice, I just haven't been able to justify the $.


The one set of harland's were bought new in 1976.....still have the original boxes they came in(used to be their warranty; unlimited as long as you have the original box). - I have two newer sets of harlands, a set of crane golds, and some off-brand ones for a couple milder street motors. I've pulled these off motors and put new on just to keep them around, hard to give up old friends that have never let me down.

DeltaElite121

I guess it gives you an excuse to try different things that maybe you haven't tried yet. Either way - your outlook is good. I guess life has a funny way of making everyone pay their dues, and usually at the wrong time.

AlkyIROC

I've been e-mailing back and forth to comp Cams. As long as the pushrod seat in the rocker isn't too worn or damaged, to rebuild all 16 rockers is $184.80.

Our exchange rate was terrible 10 years ago and when I bought the rockers, they were close to $500.

I got a great deal on the shaft rockers. New and only installed as a display. In my hands and I saved about $300. New, they're worth around $1400.

AlkyIROC

This has to be the strangest engine failure I've had yet. Pictures later today. I need to get them into my computer and resized for the forum.

I pulled the exhaust and heads off today. I looked in through the hole in the oil pan and can already determine that the crankshaft is scrap metal. Once I pull the pan, I can see just how bad it looks inside. There's a lot of other dents in the pan probably from pieces of con rod and piston being thrown around.

Now the strange part. 4 of the rockers were seized, well 3 seized and 1 partially seized. This allowed the valves to hang open and the pistons hit the valves however except for a few circular valve marks on the pistons, there doesn't appear to be any damaged valves. Looking at the circular marks you would expect I had piston to valve clearance issues but only on a couple of valves. The rest are fine. It's like the pistons came up and touched the valves just enough to close them but they were not open enough or solidly held open enough to cause any problems. Until I check the heads better I can't say if any valves are slightly bent but so far they all look ok. A simple fluid containment test can tell if they're seated. Alcohol works good for that as it will flow thorough an opening better than water will. I'll still strip the valves to check all the seats for dents but with no damage to the tops of the pistons, no hard parts should have gone through the valves.

There's no head damage. #1 cylinder which threw the rod had a mild dent onto the thread face of the spark plug but the ground strap wasn't touched. Even looking at that piston inside the cylinder you couldn't tell that the rod was broken under it. There is an underside dent in the #4 piston so something hit it from the underside.

When I dropped the oil containment pan and removed parts from it. The end of the rod still has the broken off rod bolts in it so the bolts didn't back themselves out.

I checked out the Comp Cams rockers. The Pro Magnums that I have are now called Hi-Tech stainless rockers and they're still worth around $500

AlkyIROC

Had to put a couple of pictures in the Sacrifices sticky first.

When I first pulled the valve covers, seeing something like this isn't a good sign.



This is the con rod I pulled out of the oil containment pan.





Driver's side pistons. The thrown rod is #1 cylinder on the left

AlkyIROC

Oil pan damage





Passenger side pistons. You can see the underside dent in the top of cylinder #4 and the circular valve marks on the #6 piston which had the crooked rocker under the stud girdle.





Finally piston number 1 which has the broken con rod under it.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

judging by the blueing around the bearing end, i'd say you spun a bearing...how were clearances checked?

greezemonkey

iTrader: (14)

blue rod journal..eewwhh...something starved it for oil being furthest from the pump or it was just plain tight, thats all I can think, whats your idea?

AlkyIROC

Until I get the bottom end apart to check the rest of the bearings, it's only a guess. First guess would be that the tolerance was too tight on that bearing. If the rest of the bearings look fine then that one was too tight. If all the bearings got too hot then it was an oil feed issue or all were too tight.

The Big M block has priority oiling meaning the mains get oil first then the galleries in the front of the block feed the cam and top end.

Shagwell

agreed. - Oil starvation could have been at least partially caused by the vaccum pump. A BBC can easily hold 2-2.5 quarts in each valvecover, so there's 4-5qts, plus at least 1 more just for the gallies to be full(but not neccessarily pushing anything out); doesn't leave much in the pan for the pump to keep the system fully charged/under pressure.

I run a 1/2 hose off the back of each head down to the oil pan on all mine. Doing so negated a top end/shut-down drop/loss of oil pressure we had seen for many years.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

how much vacuum were you pulling on it? im thinking, though... if the valvecovers were full of oil, the rockers shouldn't be seizing up? i think he also has an oil accumulator, which is an extra couple quarts if the oil pressure drops.

deff. looks like maybe it was too tight or something with the bluing on the rods. or just lack of oil for some reason. a shot of the bearings would be interesting to see.

AlkyIROC

I had 4 shims in the vacuum regulator. According to the Moroso instructions, the relief valve should open at 18 inches. If no shims are inside, it will open at 10 inches. The datalogger is using a MAP sensor to read the vacuum but I've never calibrated it because as the barometric pressure changes, so does the reading. Map sensors read absolute pressure so it depends on how much pressure is on the back side. With the engine shut off and the altitude I'm at, the MAP normally says the voltage output is around 2-4 inches of vacuum. I don't have a vacuum gauge in the dash either. It was hard enough trying to watch a pyrometer, there's little chance I could watch a vacuum gauge.

This is the first year using a belt driven vacuum pump. I've run restricters in the front of the block for years with no issues. Looks like the restricters and vacuum pump with a high relief setting don't mix so the restricters come out before the engine goes back together and shims come out of the relief valve.

The accumulator only pushes oil back into the galleries if the supply from the oil pump drops off. As long as the pump is pushing oil, the accumulator is just going along for the ride. Accumulator works mainly when slowing down at the top end when there's too much oil in the top of the engine and g-forces are pushing the oil forward and away from the pickup.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i figure if there is oil in the pan, the oil pump will be pulling it and pumping oil through the engine. or at least trying to. if the vacuum pump was preventing the oil from draining back out of the heads at high rpms, i would think the pan could go dry, the oil psi gauge would be falling off on top end, your accumulator would empty, and you would have lots of oil in your breather tank for the vacuum pump.

Shagwell

agreed - for some reason the rocker issue had escaped my mind in my last response. If the oil was being held up top, there's no reason the rockers should have seized.

AlkyIROC

One other issue I hadn't considered. I misplaced an o-ring for my System 1 filter so I installed a Moroso filter instead. I wonder if the Moroso filter caused too much of a restriction. The System 1 doesn't have the smaller micro size so it doesn't trap the smaller particles but flows much more oil through it.

Once I get the filter off, I'll cut it open. I already know it's full of metal. I'll have to find that missing o-ring for the System 1 filter or buy a replacement o-ring set and put the System 1 back onto the new engine. I like a filter that can be removed, cleaned, inspected and reinstalled.

I'm being lazy. Although I have a lot of parts off it, the engine is still in the car. It's not like I'm in a big rush. I have until May 2012 to get it finished. When the engine is finally out, I think I'll finally tackle the firewall and cut a lot of it out around the tranny tunnel. I'm tired of fighting bellhousing bolts with the tranny/flexplate shields.

Shagwell

Be interesting to see how much trash/debris you find in the oil restrictors.

AlkyIROC

I'm curious myself but still too lazy to pull the engine out of the car. The restrictors are nothing more than 1/4" pipe plug with a small hole drilled through them. I think mine were a 1/16" hole.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

I say its time to move on.. to 5" bore spacing . Just kidding .i hope you can
salvage as much of the engine as you can.

AlkyIROC

Time to move on is right. A complete new shortblock may be in order.

I managed a little more tear down today. I started by pulling the driveshaft and draining the tranny in preparation for it's removal. I didn't try unbolting the converter yet so I don't know if the engine is seized or not. When I went to take off the crank trigger wheel, the crankshaft rotated freely which was really good so I know it wasn't seized up however the camshaft wasn't turning. Now I was curious.

I pulled the balancer and timing cover to discover a big mess behind the cover. The 3 bolts that hold the gear to the camshaft were sheared off. I was able to unscrew the bolts but the pin may be difficult to remove. The torrington bearing behind the gear was destroyed. I pulled the camshaft to see one damaged lobe. Guess I don't need to worry about the pin now. Once the cam was out, I was able to look down the lifter valley to see the bottoms of the cylinders all have small chunks taken out of them. They're not as bad as the back 2 cylinders which already have sleeves in them from throwing a rod years ago but it's still damage.

Now the worst part is, after removing the timing chain, I can see the front crank bearing pushed up to the timing gear on the crank. I can slide it in and out and spin it around. This means either the main bolts are loose or the main bearings got hot and warped the mains but either way, the block will need to be line honed providing the damage isn't too excessive.

A completely new shortblock assembly in either a 540, 555, 565 or straight out to 582 or 588 again may be cheaper in the long run than trying to replace just about everything below the heads. Jumping to a talldeck would be nice but also adds a lot more accessory expenses such as headers etc.

I liked the configuration of the 582 short deck and would like to repeat it's performance. The exchange rate is getting worse so ordering anything from the USA right now isn't going to be cheap. It's still a lot better than it was 10+ years ago when I did buy a lot of expensive parts. A complete shortblock the way I would like it should be around $8000+. Bottom end with low end parts is around $5000. It's hard to spec a complete engine with an alcohol injection system but if I wanted a complete carb to pan engine, $20,000 to $40,000 could buy around 1000 HP. Since I already have a good set of conventional heads and the induction system, I only need the shortblock.

Depending on finances, parts availability, exchange rate etc, I may actually sit out next season and spend the next 18 months rebuilding or replacing. There's a few things I want to also do to the car itself.

The racing here in Calgary is now over. The track closes at the end of this year thanks to city planning and so far there's no talk of building somewhere else close to the city. That means if I want to race, I need to do a 2-1/2 hour road trip to Edmonton's track starting next year.

overdriv

Bummer. You may have already said, but how many runs are on that engine? Approximate if you're not sure?

AlkyIROC

5.

I just finished putting it back together after snapping a rod bolt at the beginning of June. It was only a 540 back then. The 582 is a nicer combination.

I've talked to Comp Cams and sent them a better picture of the cam lobe. The lobe has too much of a dent in it to be reground so the cam is scrap metal.

From what I can figure, the the rod broke, something got loose inside and went up to the cam. The cam hit it and jammed which stopped the cam solid. That's why the gear bolts were sheared off and the came gear and chain were a mess. I have absolutely no idea why valves didn't get bent after that unless I clicked off the engine fast enough.

I'm currently debating on getting a new block. I can't make the decision until I eventually get this one on an engine stand so I can see just how much damage is done to the bottom end. Basically, I'm looking at a complete new short block. There are a few good package deals from places like Sunset or Shariroff. Shipping across the border would be expensive plus the value of our dollar is dropping again.

http://www.shafiroff.com/shortblocks/582_shortblock.asp
That's basic. I'd upgrade a few parts. I'd change the crank, rods and pistons.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

wow, that's CHEAP for nearly 600"! makes me rethink some things for sure....

could an engine of that cubic displacement be kept cool enough on the street for hour long cruises?

overdriv

Only 5 runs on the 582 when it let loose. Oh my.

How many runs on the 540 when it give up?

AlkyIROC

That's just a short block price for the block and rotating assembly. The upgrades I'd want would put that close to $6000. I already have about $6000 worth of heads and valve train plus about $2000 worth of induction. Need another $400 camshaft now. That damaged cam is really nice for my combination. Designed for low rpm bracket racing with good heads. Low rpm means below 8000 rpm. I was shifting around 7200 with this cam.

Earlier this year my neighbor asked me how much my engine was worth. I ballparked it at $20,000 and looking at complete carb to pan engines available making around 1000 HP, I'm probably pretty close.

For street use, how much power a big CID engine makes depends on what pistons you put into it for compression ratio, what heads you install and what cam you use. You'll probably need a really good rad to help cool it but even on pump gas, there's no reason you can't make 1 HP per CID and keep it cool. The 582 is still a short deck block so anywhere a normal 454 will fit, so will it. You could still overbore out to 588 but that's the maximum in a short deck block. It is possible to put a 4.5" stroke crank in but anything bigger than 582 and you need to get into a tall deck block to get the wrist pin out of the rings.

Want to go ultimate? It won't fit in out cars from Sonny's Engines now makes a 1005 CID and 2150 HP without a power adder! If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it. My guess would be a little over $100k. http://www.sonnysracingengines.com/e...p-new-for-2011

I last broke the 540 back in 2006. It's run very well and went through a few changes since then. Switched from carbs to injection, changed the cam, changed the heads. Each change made more power. No idea on exactly how many runs it's made. My race season is short. Somewhere between 100 and 200 total passes in 5 years. I'm finally making more power than the parts can handle although the failed rod/bearing was probably a clearance issue.

Years ago, everyone was building 540's to beat the 496 or 502 engines. Now the 582 is being built to beat the 540's. If you have room for a talldeck block, even the 572 is being left behind for the 632 engines.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i make near 582fwhp now, i certainly wouldn't go through all the trouble of putting a BBC in the car to only make 10% more hp. i'm looking at my next engine to be around 800hp. i'd like to keep it n/a, and that pigblock would do it with ease. an 800hp lsx is going to need custom headers and such, so going with a short deck bbc that i could get some lemons for or the like would be cool.

just throwing around daydreams while i finish up school. staying lsx has it's advantages too, and an l92/ls3 based combo would make 800hp n/a for close to the same cost of that 582 with a decent cylinder head, maybe even cheaper.

AlkyIROC

1 HP per CID is easy. 1.3-1.5 per CID is a moderate build so there's no reason with some good performance parts that 756-873HP can't be reached. Although I've never had my engine on a dyno, I'm probably pushing right around 2 HP per CID.

The nice thing about the 582, you could tell someone that it's a 396, 427 or 454 and they couldn't tell the difference by looking at it.

Big cubic inches also don't need to rev as high as a smaller engine to make the same amount of power. My powerband dropped with the displacement increase. Everything else about the engine was the same as the 540.