InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

The question was asked on another board, I thought it was an interesting conversation so I figured I'd ask it here. With new cars coming off the factory line running 10s and 11s with little modifications, are 12s respectable anymore.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I would say no in the modern age but depends on the motor.

For a 305 car, 12's are really good. For a 350, 12's are pretty good. Lower 12's more impressive than high 12's for sure. Bolt on L98 350's can touch 12.9's, and cam swap can do mid 12's. Mild heads/cam package can do low 12's. Not bad for stock bottom end but then again with new head technology and new cam technology, you should beable to build a streetable 11 second 350. There are guys who have done heads/cam/intake and have power to go 11's or have gone 11's. If you built a higher compression bottom end, 11's shouldnt be an issue
If you build a short runner intake 383 or larger, I'd think 11's are a given..thats an easy 375-400whp with off the shelf parts..not really that hard to do and keep it streetable.

There are lots of guys running high 8's in street turbo/blower combos these days. The envelope of performance has been raised to the point that 11 second cars have been common, so 12's are really not that impressive anymore.

Simple bolt on LS1 4th gen is a mid 12 second car now...thats my daily driver and it has 2.73 highway gears. A mild cam and gears on sticky tires with my converter should beable to touch high 11's and not give up much streetability. Its just insane

skinny z

I suppose it depends entirely on the intended use.
While it's JUST a matter of assembling the appropriate parts to run quicker than 12's it often leaves something to be desired in the utility of the vehicle.
While todays technology leaves yesterdays in the dust when it comes to an all round package, making your 3rd gen achieve that kind of status will take some serious upgrading and dollars. By serious I'm talking either highly strung 350's, larger cubes or engine swaps (and all the attending bits and pieces to make it work).
Make the car a lightweight and you sacrifice comfort and functionality. No rear seats, sound deadeners or insulation, good bye a/c, etc. Aftermarket k-members, drag racing brakes and ridiculous suspensions are generally items which don't have the durability to survive through the daily grind.
Buy an 2010 Camaro and stick a supercharger on it and you have sub 12 second potential. It would take a lot of work to squeeze that kind of performance AND comfort out of a 3rd gen. It's getting easier to be sure but it's still a challenge.
I'm not saying it hasn't been done (as retorts to this post will undoubtedly attest) however take an 86 Sport Coupe, build 350-400 chp with enough suspension to make it work and you have solid 12's, excellent mileage and a vehicle that doesn't look like a dragster.
I'd say that's respectable.

stealthroc89

For a daily driver, yes. A street/strip car that was built with horsepower in mind, no. Most cars on the streets can hardly keep up with a stock L98, let alone a modified one, just depends on what you run into also. The new Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers are are in the high 12s to mid 13s, so for a daily driven 3rd gen to take one of them is pretty resectable. Thats well modified vs. stock, so once they get thier go fast goodies, it pretty much lights out.

Camaro305SB

I love how people care so much what others think.... 12's is quick. Period. Take your grandma for a ride in a 12 second car you'll probably scare the **** out of her. But, at the same time there is always someone faster. One of the mechanics at my work has a 6 second Mustang - so a 10 second car isn't fast to him, but its fast to me(whos fastest car at the moment only goes high 12s).

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

12s haven't been fast for a decade now probably. Even then, since the ls1 came out in 98, there were guys running 10s on a 200 shot with bolt ons basically. In fact in 2000 or so I was running 11.60s on a 150 shot with a 305, and I was one of the slower cars at the track....so it's all subjective

Doom86

We're talking daily drivers I hope? 12 second race car is laughable. Hell there's NA 9 second hondas out there

I think it's respectable depending on how it's achieved.

12's on a lease, not impressive to me.

But go ask one of the guys who show up every week to drag race their civic hatches that run 18's if 12's is impressive. Those guys impress me TBH, they are slow but come to just have fun.

pancherj

12's are good if you can do it on a budget. Sure, I could go out and plunk $35K down on a new camaro and another $6k in upgrades and go much faster (if my wife would let me!). However, if I put $41k into my 3rd gen it would be going a lot faster than the current 11.60's...or that new camaro!

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

I had under 5k total in my old 305 camaro back in the day to run those times. Doesn't cost much to run 11s or 12s at all. Now to do it n/a it's just a cam only ls1 that can get 25+mpg to and from the track, technology is a great thing

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'm in the mid-12's with a stock LS1 (however with more stall in the shift kitted 4L60E, 3.73 gears, DOT slicks). I drove the car to work this morning (and usually do year-round).

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

12s is OK for a daily driver. But, it is just OK. But, 13s or slower has basically become turd territory, LOL.

kerplunk318

iTrader: (3)

To gear heads and drag racers yes, 12's are slow. Forget your grandma, I put my 23 year old friends in my camaro and they get out like theyve seen a ghost, it 'only' runs mid 12s.

In conclusion, to 98% of the population 12's are effin fast.
To you and me... effin fast aint fast enough

J91

12's are respectable, especially if you can do it NA, w/o the juice or boost. I know my car has more in it, but at what cost? Sacrifice highway comfort for gearing, supension that doesn't handle in the twisties, my car is all-purpose, road trips, open track, autoX, dragracing, it's all fun. if you can run 12's in a daily street driven car that is dependable, I say you are doing ok....

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

If your a car guy that likes to compete with your modern car freinds, then no, 12's aren't fast whatsoever. Back when I was 17 12's would have been real quick. Now though? I had a 2008 shelby GT that ran 13.5's. It was a joke compared to 80% of my car buddies rides. The majority of my freinds cars are making over 400 RWHP and a few are in the 500-600 range. Plain and simple, when modern day performance cars are running 12's stock and your average joe can go buy one and get that potential, you need a mid 11 or quicker car to be "fast."

I'm sure in certain parts of the country a 12 second car would be fast. Here in CT with our huge car scene, 12's are average, and if you try to brag about running a 13 you'll get laughed at. Just how it is now I guess.

Gabe88

12's are good for a daily driver, 2010 camaro according to pop mechanics runs 13 at 111mph. obviously 12 sec drag car isnt fast but stand on the side of the road as a 12 sec car passes by and tell me its slow.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

The MPH of that camaro should explain it all. 111 mph is a 12 second pass hands down. Magazines never achieve a cars full potential. There are plenty of guys that have gotten the new camaros to run 12's in stock trim. My bro's mustang did a 12.6 at 111 mph.

Of course 12's are going to be fast for generally most of the standard cars on the road but as far as gear heads and performance cars are concerned, they are just not very impressive anymore. Especially with all the technology out now and cheapness of turbo's and LS truck motors and all, running quicker than a 12 should be no problem with a decent set up.

A freind of mine has a 98 buick regal GS that runs high 12's....and it's his winter car. Just has more boost on the supercharger and a cam with bolt ons. Bone stock bottom end. Get beat by that in your camaro or trans am and tell me 12's are still fast.

By all means if thats all you are looking for and if it makes you happy, thats great. It still makes for a fun car thats a blast to drive. The original question was are 12's still impressive these days, and the simple answer is no, there not.

zraffz

12's are very respectable for a street car. I don't think anything of a 12 second track car though unless you're using oldschool technology.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Now, i will say about the new camaro, 12s is hauling *** in a fat **** pig like those, LOL.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Haha, took my thoughts and put them into words.

skinny z

I lifted this from another forum.

2010 Camaro SS stick.
Tires used on the pass: stock
Performance Mods (if any): stock
Category submitted for: stock
60′…………. 2.046
330′……….. 5.562
660′……….. 8.409
660’ mph… 86.59
1000′………. 10.840
1320′………. 12.874
1320’ mph… 109.08
Name of the track: Cordova Dragway
Date of pass: 7/17/2009
Weather conditions: DA 986 temp 61F
Launch control was not used on this run and this car has dyno’d at 365whp.

I'd say that's respectable too.

Shagwell

IMO - 12's are respectable pending the $ spent to get there and how it was built(OE, a custom shop, or by your own hands). Big difference between a $5k car with $3k in mods vs a $30k car.

A guy on one of my local forums has a newer CTS-V with the supercharger; completely stock with just some nitto dr's on the back it ran 11.81. - It's a freakin 4-door CADILLAC!

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

The question needs to be more specific otherwise it's only gonna bring opinions and no real facts.

My opinion is that 12's are great for a street car that can haul the family around and still be respectable to other people around it. Ex... A new muscle car, an old muscle car, a quiet turbo car, etc.....

The guy with the 248 duration cam, flowmaster 2 chambers and turndowns and missing interior, primer and slicks driving around with a 12.50 car is a joke.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I LOVE that car. Someday I will have money and buy one.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I was looking for opinions/discussions.

stealthroc89

Ok, so your low 12sec daily driver is fast on the streets, just don't take it to the track and expect it to be fast there.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Couldn't have said it better myself. Kid I know has a 94 5.0 mustang, huge cam, flowmasters with turndowns, a 4 point cage, and 325 rear tires. Sounds like a drag car at idle.......runs a 13.0.

Your look on it is exactly how I feel as well. If you can do it more low key, good for you.....but if you have a purpose built car for speed, don't go bragging it runs 12's.

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

I think a 12 second car is still fast - Again, on the streets. It seems that most people on the streets think their 13-14 second cars are wicked fast and having a 12 second car to go stop light racing would still be impressive. On the track, not so much.

That being said, I drive a 13.0 car daily (SRT4) and I now think its too slow.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

It also depends on the car and engine.

A C6 Corvette running 12s is unimpressive. A Ford Festiva running 12s is damn impressive. And hilarious.

An LSx swapped 3rd gen running 12s is standard. A 2.8 Berlinetta running 12s is great.

84firebird383

Going a 1/4 mile in 12 seconds from a standstill is pretty quick regardless of how you do it. wether or not its respectable depends on the competition. For a daily driver/mild hotrod its respectable. for a serious street strip car not so much.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I hadn't really thought about it much before now, but I probably drive a faster car every day on the streets than the racers with drag-only 7-11 second race cars.

Hasn't always been the case. I remember several years ago a racer's car broke during time trials, so he unhooked his tow vehicle to sub it, and his tow vehicle was faster than my "race" car of the time (which I drove to the track).

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

LOL, nearly reminded me of my car a couple years back, but it was a 11 second car then.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

Last year I was prowling for 12 seconed cars. Shoot, I was prowling for 10 seconed cars. Couldn't find any. I almost got a light with a Termy Cobra and I actually got a light with a new Ferrari but he wouldn't acknowlage my existence. Lucky guy! I could have had a 13 seconed car and probably caught 10 races....

Fact is that there is no "streets" anymore. So a 12 seconed car is fast when there's nothing to compare it to. But take that car to the track and get mopped up by civics and Neons. It's a tough world we race in these days.

Zone....That car is what I described down to the hood pins but something about it just works! I like it!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I get more races in my stock/bolt on L98 than I ever did with the 383 all motor setup or the twin turbo setup now...no one wants to play when they can see intercooler and turbos.
Its more fun to stop light to stoplight race on the street with a "slower" car because they can get better traction. The faster higher hp stuff just cant hook up unless its a faster roll race. In that sense 12 second cars can be fun. I enjoy my bolt on LS1 car but it would be tons better if it had a mild cam and ran high 11's.
I like how people like to compare stop light to stop light races to the track. I never seen the faster car at the track lose in a stop light race if there is any sort of traction... a faster car ET's better in 330 ft, 1/8 mile as well as 1/4 mile than a slower car, so on the street its the same deal.

To be honest, all my motors have felt stronger at the track than on the street. When I went to the track I was pleasantly surprised at what it ran.

87_TA

Funny, when I built my first thirdgen in 1995, I thew in a 350 with ported dart heads, 4.11s and 3500 stall an got the car to high 11s N/A @ 112 and it was really fast street or track.. Then LS1s came along in 98 and with bolt ons only were right with me and faster on the street - that sucked! I then threw on a blow through procharger and was running 10.6 best on pump gas driving to track every week and people noticing it was a very fast street machine - I would say I had one of fastest around at that time and was very proud of..
I then built another third gen efi running high 10s on motor alone and 10.0 on spray, totalled that car and thew combo into my current 93 shell still with 90's ecm - My brother in law said "How do you feel, you went from having a fast third gen to slow 4th gen with the same combo" It was true..
My current combo has just gone 9.8s on pump gas with a 6 speed on spray, something I am really proud of, and optimized I think will go bottom 10 on motor alone - and its really slow compared to the heavy hitters in my area! That sucks, there are guys street racing 8 second cars around here that trap near 160! WTF?

Are they street cars? hardly! IMO, funny thing is, I got im my cousins mid 12 turbo buick and it felt wicked fast to me and mine feels slow to me.. He is pround of his car as well am I, its all about what you have, what your goals are and how much work you put into it..
Nothing wrong with a 12 sec race car IMO, are you gonna wow the crowd, hell no, are you gonna have fun, hell yes. Are you gonna be satisfied,never!

b1lk1

I am dreaming of hign 12's low 13's with the 83 Z28 I just bought. I paid $500 for a really nice shell and another $400 for a 350 motor that was supposed to be alot more than it was. I'm sourcing out used parts where I can find them for the little spare cash I have. I have spent another $200 on a carb, intake and ignition system, now I just need to find a set of heads. Sadly, I can only spend a couple hundred on them.

To me, my car even in the 14's will be fast but I realize that it is gonna be slow to the racing community. I don't care, I am building my car within my means and it will be what it is, but no matter what, 12's are not slow.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i have noticed, that i got more action in my car on the street when it ran 12's, then i do now with it running 10's.

10's are a strange time frame to be in...too fast for "average" go-fast street car stuff, too slow for racecars....most of the go fast street car guys in my area are in the bottom 12's/upper 11's on motor...and run bottom 10's or better on spray. i don't spray my car, so i can't hang with them when they spray, but they won't run me on motor...it's frustrating.

for example, i had a guy come into my work (local parts house) and tell me that whenever i was ready for a dusting, to let him know. i turned around and got really excited, i responded with "on motor?!"...his big goofy smile slowly turned more serious...then i said "i run all motor, so if you beat me with spray, what's that prove?" his smile was gone at this point...i found it very funny. now i know that a win is a win, regardless of how you do it, but all these guys running 200 shots wanting to "show me tail lights" is a bit annoying, lol!

stealthroc89

No replacement for displacement my @ss LOL!! I get more races now than ever, new engine and tranny Ugh....must....not.....push.....accelerator!!! One of these years I'll make it past the break in period. Ya I said years!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

break in period of years? please dont do that.. few hundred miles under the right procedure motor is broken in

kerplunk318

iTrader: (3)

Were you riding shotgun? I had someone who can drive take me for a ride in my camaro and was scared shitless, but I dont feel like its that fast when I'm driving

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

It proves that whats under his hood can handle whats under yours.
lol

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

true...i've been an NA advocate for a long time, and i'm finding that i'm my own breed, lol.

skinny z

You're not entirely on your own.
Around here, NOS is now illegal when it comes to the street (and I can't say that I race on the street) so NA is the yardstick that everybody is measured by. That doesn't mean that folks aren't breaking the law...

Shagwell

Break-in period? What's this jibberish you're speaking of? - If it ain't broke in by the time the oil is at temp it best get used-to it as is.




Come on Matt, time for a little blue bottle of bog-be-gone!

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

i thought blue bottles were for seating rings? hehehehehehehehehehehe




modern motors really don't need that much break in, i usually let it get up to temp, a little bit of putting around, and then run the hell out of it.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

Jp, you gotta plate kit you wanna send my way? Lol

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

i've got a kit i could send out to you just to get some numbers on the spray lol.

Primetime91

iTrader: (15)

Kinda late to the discussion here, but 12's are still respectable where I'm at. -Shrug- But I'm at 5-6000 feet elevation, big difference

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

HUGE difference if your at high altitude. I assume corrected to sealevel or near sealevel times where DA is anywhere from 0-2500 ft.

stealthroc89

It's been a loooooong road. I'll just say, if I didn't have bad luck I wouldn't have any luck at all. Kinda hard to rack up miles when I don't go anywhere and I live 3 miles away from work. Can't wait to take it to the track and see what she'll run. I think even with the 2.77s and stock tune I should pull off a low 13, maybe a high 12. kerplunk318's right, you have to take a ride to feel the power, I let my brother drive mine so I can see how it felt and I was wondering what the hell he did, I was shaking with exitement lol!

Lol, forgot my license was suspended for a year...... not for racing.

Shagwell

exactly. I fire it and bring the oil up to temp 2-3x. After that, all bets are off.

I could send you a loaner.....just remember all I own are the gangsta pills; great for checking bumper mounts.......