3rdGenFireFox

i just bought a 1993 firebird for 750$ 3 days ago
I just finished put the engine in tonight and testing tomorrow

I will be running at firebird international in 2 weeks to see what it really is.

plans of the future include 200hp nitrous shot and twin turbo in the future... but for now i want to know what the current build could do

The car has a 2bolt 400small block ported iron 327 heads 2.02" in valves 1.9" ex with holley pro street itk mani and 1.7/8" O/D exhuast, forged 8-1 JE pistons on unknown cc heads or head mill

has th350 with a 2800stall, new bands?, b&m shift kit

Its fully gutted(everything that can be removed), .7mil lexan front window, 3gal fuel cell, wrinkle walls MT 30 x 9 x 15, 6point cage, driveshaft hoop, basially everything you need to run 130mph+

the whole system has all new gaskets and cleaned everything out

motor ran 11.78 at 122mph in a 4500lbs car with a 6-71 blower on the stock 327head and cam... which after the blower came off the head were fully done up with 1.6ratio rollers and a huge unknown cam(sounded mean as hell in the implala)

run sheet shows ~ 575hp(wheel?) @ 4 psi with the old setup

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

guessing 8.50's-9.0's in the 1/8? 13.teens-13.50's in the 1/4?

AlkyIROC

Not quite. The 6 point roll bar limits you to 11.50 ET which should be around 115-118 MPH.

I'd also guess a low to mid 13's pass. If you're really, really lucky, maybe a very high 12 but I doubt it. Just not enough information to give any kind of guess.

You're got the foundation to make a good drag car but now it needs some planning to make the most of what you're got. Without knowing what kind of work was done to the heads, putting on 1.6 rockers with a "huge unknown cam" can be just asking for trouble. Blower cams don't run too well in a NA engine. There's too much overlap to make big power.

flyjum

Im firefox's brother here is a little more info about the car we are trying to race.

1.6 exhaust valves not 1.9
Its a 406 with 9.5:1 compression ratio (i belive 64cc heads).

The guy we bought the car from gave us a slip.

It ran a 12.400 at 108 with a 1.798 60'.
He had a 355 with gm heads 1.94 valves home ported (iron), holley 650 carb, single plane edelbrock manifold, stock bottom end and a decent size cam.

He said it went as fast as 12.1's with same setup.

Also car has a 10 bolt in it with spool he said might have axle but does not know for sure.

I think it should run mid 12's or so and weigh around 2750 (was a 83 lg4 car with a4 stock weight is 3041). Should be making 1 hp per cubic inch at least.

We will see soon.

pancherj

Find out what you can about the camshaft. With weak cylinder heads and low compression, you will be shooting yourself in the foot if it is a big camshaft (lots of duration and overlap). Hard to give you any direction without knowing a little more. I had a pretty simple 406 in a 1975 Nova years ago. Ran 12.20's no problem (3700lbs with me in it). I had a mechanical Lunati Bracketmaster cam, Victor Jr., 750 Double Pumper and a set of Twisted Wedge heads.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

McDonalds stickers on the dash = Classic - keep'em


Decals on the windows = Razor and Windex - loose'em

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

you mean limit him to 9.99 or 135mph with a roll bar?

and it looks like he has a full cage in the car, so it could go much faster if it certs.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

what the heck is that printout? some kind of simulated dyno 1/4 mile deal? thos numbers seem kinda fishy.

i also don't think it'll be 2750lbs. that weight on the door vin sticker is not what it actually weighs. put it on a scale...i imagine that car weighs ~3300lbs with driver.

motor is kinda slapped together huh? i agree with the guys above. i think it'll run mid 13's.

whatever84

That's not a time slip, It looks like a desk top dyno simulator (or quarter Jr)printout to me Anyway good luck at the track, A wild guess would be mid to low 13's.

Mark.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

post up a pic of the 30" slicks on the car

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i'm curious to see how you fit them as well, what wheel size and backspacing did you go with?

3rdGenFireFox

took a few off... still gotta do the rest

I put the mcdonalds sticker on as soon as i got it and its staying. those are my passengers



slip says new jersey speedway... not 100% sure if its real or not.




more pics

3rdGenFireFox

flyjum

Thats not a slip its exactly what you guys are saying a program where u put a time in and it gives other info like horsepower and what not.

You put in weight if was on slicks time and mph and it will give you some other info.

The car ran a 11.78 at 122 mph with slicks this was a 76 impala 2 door (4000+ lbs)

The engine was slaped in the car as you can see.

This is a cheap project (we have around 950$ into it so far including fluids)

This is not trying to be the coolest fastest car on the track by any means.

We still need to buy some things we just got the car last Wednesday.

Wheels are stock SE. Tires are 30x9x15's

I think it will weigh 2750 without driver. I think 300 lbs at least has been taken out of the car.



1982 camaro z28 (LG4/200c)......3296 (front 1945 [59.0%], rear 1351)
1982 pontiac S/E (LG4/4sp)........3041 (front 1978 [65.0%], rear 1063)
1983 camaro z28 (LG4/700r4).....3241 (front 1931 [59.6%], rear 1310)
1986 pontiac firebird (LB8/T5).....3002
1986 camaro z28 (LB9/700R4).....3403
1987 camaro iroc (L98/700r4).....3478 (front 2064 [59.3%], rear 1414)
1987 camaro iroc (L98/700r4).....3461 (front 2064 [59.6%], rear 1397)
1987 pontiac firebird (LG4/700r4).3635
1987 camaro RS (LB8/700r4).......3106 (front 1722 [55.4%], rear 1384)
1989 pontiac gta......................3389
1990 camaro RS (LO3/700r4)......3267
1991 pontiac T/A Vert (LB9/t5)...3455 (front 1996 [57.7%], rear 1459)
1991 camaro z28 (L98/700r4).....3413
1991 camaro vert (LO3/700r4)....3425
1991 pontiac firebird(LH0/700r4)..3117

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

weigh the car, don't go by that list, it's not nearly as accurate as you might think.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

interesting on that list the '87 firebird is heavier than the gta....

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

hope you're prepared to get turned away at tech that car's not going to be legal to go down the track

3rdGenFireFox

and why is that? why wouldn't it pass tech?

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

your fuel cell and battery are mounted illegally. you need a firewall between them and the cockpit. or put the cell under the car and put the battery in an approved, sealed box. you should also have the sump on the cell facing the rear of the car, so that when it accelerates it doesn't risk pushing the fuel away from the sump

3rdGenFireFox

I do have a battery box that came with the car... and the fuel cell has a dump tube to the outside of the car. I asked the same thing when i got the car, and dude said you need a dump tube to the outside just like a nitrous bottle in a hatch.

The lines do face forward, but im only running one pass then refill. So im not concerned



anything else? i would gladly take the advice because I would like to have it pass tech first time out.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

you really do need a firewall between the fuel cell and the passenger compartment. your friend was mistaken.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

flip the cell around, it won't feed fuel under acceleration. Also you need a rear bulkhead between the battery and cell and the passenger compartment. Look in the NHRA rule book.

3rdGenFireFox

alright i'll just weld a hinged sheetmetal piece in place to cover the whole rear compartment.

i've never had anything this fast, so ill take any advice I can.

Also what happens if I run faster then what its speced for?

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

your not going to be too fast....too fast would be 8.49.

3rdGenFireFox

we are going to run a 100-250 shot of nitrous

so

based on what you see, will it spec for 10.5s 1/4?

minus little stuff like the terminals covers etc

built91Z28

I have a sumped stock fuel tank and if I'm under 1/4 tank and hit the brakes hard, I can hear the difference in the fuel pump as it goes dry for a second or too. Same thing would happen under acceleration with the sump facing the other way than mine.

BTW, xpndbl3, what do you mean by rear bulkhead for the battery? This probably would apply to me too as my battery is in the trunk.

AlkyIROC

As per all the sanctioning body rulebooks.

Battery and fuel cell must be isolated from the driver's compartment. Since a third gen is a hatch back, there is no real "trunk" area that can easily be sealed off. This means that when you mount the battery and fuel cell in the back like that, there needs to be some sort of firewall to isolate it.

Years ago when I had mine mounted like that, I fabricated a firewall that completely sealed the back when the hatch was closed. I only ran it like that for a couple of years before moving the fuel cell to the front and putting the battery in an enclosed approved box. A marine battery box is not approved as a sealed box. You need to use a Taylor or Moroso sealed battery box.

When the battery has been relocated, you also need a master kill switch mounted at the rear. As per the rulebook, the switch can not be made of plastic. Can not be keyed, Off must be clearly marked. If installed as a push/pull, push is off. With the engine running and the switch is turned off, the engine and all the electrical has to quit. This means the alternator needs to be isolated out so that it doesn't backfeed the ignition to keep the engine running. The switch must be wired into the positive side of the battery.

That long rubber fuel line to the carb is also a no-no. No more than 12" of rubber hose is allowed in the fuel system. You can change that to steel braided line to pass tech.

I see now that the car has a full cage. Unless it's been certified, the cage still won't let you run quicker than 10.0, the same as a roll bar. To run that quick, you need a whole bunch of other things as well so the full cage, although it adds some stiffness to the car, is extra weight.

Don't be surprised when you find out how heavy the car really is. My car is fully gutted. I have a full cage with a lot more tubes than what you have. Last winter, I finally installed some fiberglass doors. My race weight this year, car, driver, fuel etc sitting on the starting line is 3020 pounds. I'm around 175 pounds so that means the car alone is around 2845 but all that number is good for is to let me know how much weight is in my trailer. The engine needs to move the full race weight, not just what the car weighs. In all the years I've had my car, I don't think the race weight has ever been below 3000 pounds.

3rdGenFireFox

would the rule considering the firewalled bat and cell be different for different tracks?(not what the tech says but the actual rules)
im just saying, cuz i've seen people running high 9s around here with the same setup i havein 3rd gen cameros


its got copper hardline for everything except for that temporary line just to get her going. I'll cut it down to less then 12" once i get the kinks worked out (im out of town for a week so its on hold till i get back)


ill have to get a sealed bat box cuz mine is a marine box

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

the firewall is NHRA mandated. if you run at an outlaw track then it may not matter, but those rules are there for a reason. most of it is common sense.

AlkyIROC

Can't use copper for fuel line either. Steel hard line or steel braided hose only. Rubber only to join connections together such as an inline fuel filter, line to tank, hard line to the carb hard line etc.

As for the rear firewall, it depends on your local track and how they check your car. Chances are, it would fail tech because the battery and fuel call are in the driver's compartment and because you don't have a master shut off switch at the rear. You can risk trying to race but if it fails a tech inspection, you don't race until the problem is fixed. Just because you saw a "similar car" doesn't mean yours will pass. If it's done properly as per the rulebook, you won't have a problem passing a tech inspection at any track.

If you don't want to run on a track and have it as a street car, you can do whatever you want. To run at a track, it must be built to follow the rulebook recommendations to be track safe. If your local track is lax on the rules, don't expect all tracks to be.

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

and as far as cage etc, i don't think you'll be going fast enough to have to worry about it. i'm thinking around mid 11's on the 200 shot at best

3rdGenFireFox

I finally tracked down all the leaks and fixed them

the trans cooler line flare fittings are SUCH A PAIN IN MY *** to tighten and **** FELPRO AND THEIR SHITTY FITTING 1 PIECE OILPAN GASKETS

anyways i got a little video of me staring it and a little rev
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-U1Fas_gyU
that idle is like 1350rpm @ showing 16" vacuum


ill try to put up some driving vids tomorrow

i did take it for a test drive... burned some old 245 tires from a stand still all the way the down the street just rolling into it in 3rd. smoked up the whole neighborhood

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

More like a crappy oil pan, I've installed probably 20 of those 1 piece fel pro gaskets with a little ultra grey RTV in the corners and not had a single leak.

3rdGenFireFox

k it might have been the oilpan and/or the timing chain cover
had like an 1/8 inch gap in the corners and a 1/16 on the hump

back hump was fine, even without rtv


I just took an 1/8" thick piece of rubber strip and put it in the front hump and gooped grey rtv in the corners and a thin coat on the hump. I didn't do anything on the back one
Works for now because it's only temporary until i get a high capacity pan.




after fixing that stuff, my only problem at the moment... the car came with a mallory 60gph? efi pump.

so should I get a regulator for it?
or rebuild my Carter mechanical 175gph(or so im told) and keep the other pump for my future nitrous setup?

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

if that's an efi pump you have to have a regulator, have you put a pressure gauge on it?

1BADRZ28

iTrader: (2)

Threads like these make me want to burn my car and never admit I own a 3rd gen.

3rdGenFireFox

After it started pouring out the carb... I put a carb fuel pressure gage on it and it spiked it instantly. So just to see what i was working with I put an oil pressure gage on it and when to 100psi within a second. (deadheading it)



I know it needs a regulator. I'm going to rebuild the mechanical pump and use the efi pump with a nice efi regulator solely for the nitrous.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

For sure that long rubber fuel hose going from the chassis line to the carb has got to go. You could probably fab a cover to go over the cell and battery, but the guys are right, it won't pass as is.

Firebird International is an NHRA track, and will enforce NHRA safety rules.

BlueBeast

LOL

3rdGenFireFox

I was reading the NHRA techbook

- Need to fab a cover
- cut the rubber fuel line to <12"
- run a thick steel(1/8" wall)or braided fuel line from the flywheel to the end of the trans.

also need to get an SFI flywheel and scatter blanket once we do nitrous

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Note that is 12" total rubber line, not each individual piece can be up to 12".

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

how you been stranger?

1BADRZ28

iTrader: (2)

made $1200 at a 10.5 shootout last weekend won both days. Hopeing for some cool weather to maybe hit an 8.30 in Tulsa on the same tune. I went

I'd guess the car isn't running yet?

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

nope still not yet, fired it for about 5 seconds a few weeks ago, finally finished the last car I was building for someone so my garage is somewhat more open, then my DD truck decided to spit out it's catback exhaust and a few other issues popped up so after work I've been wrenching/welding/cussing at it instead of finishing my car. Supposed to be at a race up in wisconsin this friday to do some grudge races but it's still no where near completed enough, so it'll be a tight schedule, we'll see what happens.

3rdGenFireFox

stupid rule... but ill do what it takes to pass first time. thanks


Im going for AZ pinks all out here in November, i would like it to pass flawlessly.

Are there any special rules for pinks?

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

i would get to the track to make sure that you can get under the max ET cap before trying to just swing it out to a large event.........its no fun to work out the bugs on a night you've paid a lot of money to get in. and this way you can do some actually testing and tuning and get some seat time before winging it in front of a good sized crowd

3rdGenFireFox

For sure. We have at least 4 events before Pinks

Ill be using those to test,tune and fix stuff before the big day.


im 99% sure ill run faster then 12.99 tho

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Other than Rich makes them up as they go?

No.

built91Z28

I wouldnt count on running faster than that. I thought I would do atleast mid 13's but wound up with a best of 14.9 when I went. I found several things wrong I didnt know about till I finally ran it down the track.

You also have low compression with a huge unknown cam. Those two dont mix well.

1BADRZ28

iTrader: (2)

Full of Win!