nelapse

iTrader: (17)

My biggest question....
Does NHRA and IHRA consider a t-top car a convertible?

11.99 or quicker for the cages?

I think it has been changed to 11.49 or quicker.... beats me...

Anyways, I am installing a 4pt roll bar in my car, primarily for the use of seat harnesses... I will be using 6pt SFI 16.1 approved harnesses, however I do not want any trouble with tech inspection. Will that setup pass?

I am not interested in a 8pt cage unless I am 11.49 or whatever it is now.

Also DS loop... 13.99 or quicker?


Just trying to get my car ready for spring..
thanks

AlkyIROC

T-top cars fall under the same rules as a hard top car

11.49 needs a minimum of a 6 point roll bar. A full cage is at 9.99 or if the floor or firewall have been modified not including a back half.

A 4 point roll bar will only allow you to 11.50. You can easily install swingout door bars to go down to 10.00.

DS loop required for any cars using slicks and running quicker than 14.00. Cars running 13.00 and slower on street tires do not need the loop. All cars no matter what tires they use must use a loop if quicker than 13.00

Buy a new rulebook.

Trevor86TA

You only need one door bar from 11.49 to 10.00. As Stephen said it/they can have a removeable swingout.

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

Well my questions were all answered.... any place on the net I can attain a rule book?

brutalform

You will have to head to your local speed shop for that one. IIRC, they are only $10.00. You might be able to order one from NHRA.com, but not totally sure.

DBLTKE

iTrader: (1)

Your local drag strip should also carry NHRA rule books for sale. BTW, a driveshaft loop is required for any car running full slicks regardless of ET. this does not however apply to a car with drag radials. In the case of drag radials it is 13.99 or faster that a driveshaft loop is required.

ross

For a rule book from national hot rod assocition call 626-914-4761 is the contact # thay are in Ca.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

They must only check for a driveshaft loop at national events or big points races, 'cause the only track I've ever been to that checked was Milan Dragway near Ann Arbor, MI back in the early 90's. I've run at tracks in OH, KY, TX, TN, GA and FL and no one ever checks for driveshaft loops and I've run et streets or slicks at all of 'em. Most of the tracks I've been to you don't even have to open your hood to get through tech.

Not sayin' that it's OK not to have the proper safety equipment, I'm just saying that everything in the rule book doesn't get checked. I've never had my helmet checked either.

AlkyIROC

#1 rule in the rule book. It's the driver's responsibility that the car falls within all the rules.

With high car counts and a short amount of time, tech can't look over everything on your car. Just because they don't catch something one day doesn't mean it will be missed the next time you go through tech. If tech had the time, they could spend 10-15 minutes going over your car but how long would the tech lines be if there's only a couple of inspectors?

Going to the track that one time just to see what the car can do isn't bad. Going to the track for every race means you should be aware of the safety equipment required and have it installed.

I have a driveshaft loop on my 15 second daily driver truck. I'd be more worried about blowing a front u-joint going 60 mph down the highway in traffic than at the dragstrip.

brutalform

At my track, one week they check helmets, the next week might be driveshaft loops, and the next might be underhood, etc.

Like Stephen said, its the drivers responsibility. Skimp on the safety equipment, and it just might come back and bite you later on.

DBLTKE

iTrader: (1)

at my track (PIR) I always make sure to check everything on the car. Even fuel lines down to seat belts on stock cars. Not once does a car roll through tech without getting thoroughly checked. I not only check for the equipment, i make sure it is SFI, NHRA, Snell, etc approved and up to date. I do not want to have any mishaps or safety hazards on the track. When I'm on the starting line I don't like having to pick up snapped drive shafts and cleaning up after a leak down, and i feel that when anybody else is on starting line they shouldn't have to deal with those hassles either. However we are stricter than most tracks. We typically spend about 4-5 minutes on an average car to tech it in and we have 5 technical inspectors. We can get in big trouble if we tech in an illegal car and something happens on the track. I Don't mean to come off as a stickler but I just want to keep the drivers safe and things running smoothly.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Yea, well… there’s a big difference between safe and legal. There’s lots of little examples of this (like sealed and dry cell batteries being treated the same as a conventional), but there are a few bigger things that really rub me the wrong way (the new engine diaper regs being phased in in the next 2 years and the roll cage regs are just stupid, faster cars are allowed to have less safe cages by design)

ross

My track infoced the eng diaper thing a year ago. and I believe thay want a 20psi rad cap also.

brutalform

How about the SFI seat belts either being recertified, or replaced. I'll bet that the seatbelt makers, (Simpson, RCI) got together with NHRA, and in a combined effort, came up with this rule, so everyone can make some $$$.

MrDude_1

no. its because of inherent nature of the nylon webbing. it does need to be checked, by someone with the tools to do so.

brutalform

So the "stock" seatbelts are fine in a car capable of 12.00s with out a roll bar indefinatley? Does not make sense to me.

MrDude_1

you're right.

you should replace your stock seatbelts after they become exposed to enough UV light to lose strength..... or when they become frayed, stretched or otherwise worn... if anypart of the woven pattern is missing, replaced with a flat line, this is a good sign that the belt has been in an accident....



but this goes back to the idea posted above..... if you're only "seeing what the car can do"... you'd be pissed to find they wont let you run unless you put new GM belts in.....


there is a certin amount of "give" in the rules they make, because they need to keep people happy.... for example, it would make sense that a removable roof car, like ttops, doesnt have any more rollover protection then a vert.... so why isnt it classified like that?.... well, its been tried... the backlash by racers is pretty harsh.

nick05

So does the cage have to be a weld in cage or can it be a bolt on?

AlkyIROC

It can be bolt in with the 6x6 steel plates on the top and bottom of the floor. Each plate must be attached with at least four 3/8" bolt.

Trouble is, the top and bottom of the floor in a third gen isn't flat or thin making a bolt in option more difficult to install than welding it in.

littlebagz

Dont forget, just beacause your car is "slow" enough to not need a bar or belts, loop etc... doesnt mean teh guy in the other lane cant make you wish you had them.

I belong to a local race club and we bracket race. It is not uncommon to have a 15 second car go against some 7-8 second. The fifteen second car doesnt even need a helmet IIRC, but Id bet they wish they would have one as the 7 second car looses control at the end of the track and he gets T boned or rearended at 150+ MPH.

My car only runs 13.4 @106, and I am not afraid to have a 6 pt bar , belts and a Snell helmet. On a track you are not the only one that can hurt YOU.

Just my $.02

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Most decent tracks will prevent a 15s car running a 7s car just because it’s that dangerous… getting an 8s head start and then having a 7s missile heading at you when you’re already most of the way to the finish line is one hell of a way to kill someone.

BUT the point still stands… you sign a waver when you go to the track and ultimately it’s not their responsibility to keep you safe, it’s yours, and by signing that waver you are signing that you understand that… that being said, unless you know the guy in the other lane you might as well assume that they’re complete morons that don’t have a clue what they’re doing or track etiquette, even if they have a much faster/more serious car. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had some idiot slam on the brakes and loop his car into the first turn around RIGHT in front of me with no idea if I was going to be able to stop or not.

brutalform

Yep, I agree, on the turning statement. A little courtesy is all thats needed, but, then again look how some people drive on the roads. They bring their bad driving habits, (like not looking) to the track.

vwdave

I just went to the grand opening of a new 1/8th mile here and I must admit its pretty disgusting how inconsiderate most of the people are. Cutting in line is one of the smaller things. People standing in the staging lanes to watch the races and will not move for the next cars pissed me off pretty good.

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

Do you guys think I need to invest in safety equiptment with my car?My car is a 84 T/A with a 383 stroker, with an edelbrock performer rpm manifold, soon to be AFR 210cc heads with a Lunati voodoo cam with 241*/249* @ .050 with .525/.546 lift, a holley 750 cfm carb, th700r4 with tci valvebody and shift kit, aluminum driveshaft with 3.73 gears with an eaton posi unit. My car also weights in at 3075 with driver, the new setup should get me in the high 400's for HP. I want to put in a 4pt cage maybe a 6pt and I didnt know about the driveshaft loop but I'm 18 and this spring will be my first time at the track racing. Any other safety equip. you guys would recommend? I'm also getting 5pt racing harness seatbelts.

Trevor86TA

A stroker motor with AFR 210s and a healthy cam in a car weighing under 3100 race weight should but you well under 11.50 with any decent converter and slicks. You'll need a minimum 5pt bar, harness and jacket.

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

Do you really think that combo will be that fast? Maybe I should put some weight back in it. I was only looking for low 12's possibly high 11's like 11.9 or so. I have a tci streetfighter converter with about 2800 stall. What do you mean when you say jacket? I only plan on going to the track every so often but I would like to be safe no matter what. Should I relocate the battery to the trunk too?

Trevor86TA

You might be light on the stall given the heads/cam combo. But with that rear gear, sticky tires, level of power and low weight I think 11.50 is not a stretch at all.

The jacket is an SFI fire jacket. NHRA requries them for all cars at the 11.50 mark. I wouldn't relocate the battery just yet iunless you want to go even faster and you are ready to do it to spec. Given that you are talking about adding weight, I don't see the point in this unless you have traction problems.

AlkyIROC

Dipping into the 11's means you should be running around 110 mph. Although not mandatory unless you're running slicks, a driveshaft loop is a good safety investment even if you have a 15 second car running close to 90 mph on street tires. I have one on my daily driver truck.

Having the proper safety gear means when going through tech, they can't question anything about being legal or not. Nothing says you can't have a roll bar, harness, fire jacket etc in a 13 second car.

A 4 point roll bar is strictly for show. Although it may provide some rollover protection, it's not legal for below 11.50 without the door bars making it a 6 point roll bar. At least with a 6 point bar, you're adding about 70 pounds to the car but also making the body a lot stiffer.

As for the jacket, you don't need anything special. Just a single layer fire jacket is good to 10.0. There's lots to pick from. Buy one you like. Once you dip into the 9's it's a whole different set of rules.

Other than the driveshaft loop, you don't really need to invest in a lot of safety equipment if you don't need it. Go to the track and make a pass. If you're only running mid 12's then you don't need anything extra. If you dip into the 11's then you know you're pushing into the range where more safety equipment is required. If you dip below 11.50, the track may kick you out until you put in more stuff like the roll bar etc.

Battery relocation in a street car isn't really worth it. Relocating the battery to be track legal requires doing a bunch of rewiring with a master switch at the rear that must kill the engine when turned off. Because our cars are hatch backs, there is no "trunk". According to the rules, the battery must not be in the driver's compartment and everything inside a third gen is in the driver's compartment. That now means the battery must be installed inside a sealed and vented battery box to be inside the driver's compartment. Those cheap marine battery boxes are not acceptable. There's also a bunch of other rules relating to the master switch as to what you can and can't do with it.

Under IHRA rules, any car running quicker than 11.50 must also have a fire extinguisher properly secured in the car.

Trevor86TA

A 5pt bar is good to 10.0. You don't need a passenger side door bar.

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

Well I honestly didnt know my car would go that fast with the combo I have. I havent been to the track to race or anything and I've only had the car a few months. I'm deffinately getting the driveshaft loop and a 6pt cage with removable door bars for the street. My car is going to be mainly a street car with the occasional trip to the track for test and tunes and maybe some bracket racing. So if I add the cage and stuff it'll add about 70lbs? So then race weight would be about 3150lbs. Maybe I should put the rear seats and stuff back in it. How much would a stock 84 trans am weight anyways?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That must be a NHRA rule huh?

http://www.newenglanddragway.com/tra...n_safety.shtml

It's 11.49 or quicker in IHRA.

-- Joe

Trevor86TA

11.49 on DOTs nowawadays for NHRA as well.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Oh so they changed ?

-- Joe

Trevor86TA

NHRA announces major rule changes
National Dragster, Nov 5, 2004
GLENDORA, Calif. - Prior to releasing the 2005 NHRA Rulebook, NHRA is announcing a summary of notable changes for 2005. NHRA members are scheduled to receive a complimentary copy of the 2005 NHRA Rulebook with one of 2004's final issues of National DRAGSTER.

Adjustment to E.T. requirements

In a move designed to encourage more street vehicles to compete on the quarter-mile, NHRA has revised its requirements for roll bars, SFI Spec clutches, driveshaft loops, driver restraints, and certain protective clothing.

Beginning Jan. 1, 2005, a roll bar and an SFI 16.1 driver-restraint system will be mandatory on any vehicle running 11.49 or quicker and for convertibles running 13.49 or quicker. An SFI 3.2A/1 jacket will he mandatory for all drivers in vehicles running between 10.00 and 11.49 seconds. On any car running 11.49 or quicker, a flywheel and clutch meeting SFI Spec 1.1 or 1.2 and a flywheel shield meeting SFI Spec 6.1, 6.2, 6.3, or 9.1 will be mandatory. A driveshaft loop will be required on all cars running 13.99 or quicker and utilizing slicks, except vehicles equipped with street tires running 11.49 or slower.

brutalform

Thanks. That clears alot of stuff up. One thing I would like to point out though, is alot of tracks will have their own "admendment" to the current rules, that are in the book. For example, some like to see safety loops on ALL vehicles, as opposed to the vehicles actually running the numbers. Just my

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I race an at IHRA track, so I didn't know about the NHRA rule changes.

Tracks shouldn't be adding their own rules. Thats what the track sanctioning bodies are for. It's hard enough getting kids to race on the track instead of the street.

-- Joe

AlkyIROC

Because of insurance liability, the track can add whatever rules they like. Many tracks demand that all vehicles, even 20 second cars to have a helmet. You just have to make sure you have at least the minimum requirements. It never hurts to have more.

I've worked in tech on street legal nights and there's some street cars that shouldn't be allowed on the road that are trying to race. Tech isn't there to keep you from racing. They're there to make sure you and your vehicle are safe to race. You wouldn't want to be racing beside someone with an unsafe vehicle or maybe they're even drunk.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Thats not the point I was getting at. Requiring race parts for street cars get a little silly in the 13, 14 second range.. Helmets I have no problem with, but the driveshaft loop thing I always thought was silly. Almost every driveshaft failure i've seen was on launch.

-- Joe

AlkyIROC

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in this post or another but my truck does the 1/4 in 15.0 at 89 mph and has a driveshaft loop. You can cause just as much damage at 90 mph as you can at 120 mph. For me it's just the knowledge that if the front u-joint on my truck fails on the dragstrip or on the highway that damage will be greatly limited.

I've seen lots of rear u-joints fail but never a front one. Although the factory driveshaft tunnel is reinforced, there's still the possibility of the driveshaft coming up through the floor. I have seen a picture of a driveshaft with a failed rear u-joint poking through the back window of a car.

A loop is cheap compared to the amount of damage a driveshaft can do.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I won't disagree with you that they are not bad to have. It's just I thought it was silly mandatory on 13 second cars.. 11.49 seems fair to me. I kinda wish the roll bar restrictions were pushed back to 10.99.. My car should be more than 11.49 capable, but I won't be able to run that fast because I'm not willing to put a cage in. (or sfi restraints). I have the other SFI requirements done. Just no cage and restraints.

I've seen more driveshafts snap than ujoints fail. I've had it happen to myself. Makes some neat noise! Scared the girlfriend to death. haha

A driveshaft loop on my car would probably be fairly easy. I think I'd just need to bolt some angle iron to the c-beam. But i'd be more worried about the half shafts snapping with slicks, and coming up through the trunk.. SO i'm just gonna stick with 275/40/17 DOT's.

-- Joe

Blackroc86

There are a few companies that make really nice bolt in driveshaft loops for our cars.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You have a corvette too?

-- Joe

Blackroc86

Sorry, I see you have a Corvette now. I thought we were talking about thirdgens as that is what is normally discussed on this board.

Although I did have a Corvette way back in 1980 if that counts.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well I had thirdgens from 1997 - 2006, and 2nd gens from 1991-2002 if that counts

-- Joe

Blackroc86

I have had a long list of fbodies since 1974. That includes a couples of first gens and a bunch of second gens. Still haven't had a fourth gen but would likie to some day.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I have a '95 bird. PM me before you ever buy one. I'll tell ya the pros and cons

-- Joe

vwdave

Ive always heard the reason for the front loop is if the front fails during a shift it could cataput(sp) the car.

*Shrug*