Annihilate

iTrader: (1)

Hey there everybody,

I am getting the itch to do a swap again, and I am heavily considering a junk yard "LS" swap.

As someone not too confident with the identifying of engines or of the engines that work well with our cars (Beyond what's in the swap guide)

I was wondering if it would be possible to put together a comprehensive list of all the cars/trucks to look for when looking for an "LS" engine, or a derivative therein. I'm talking specific vehicles that the common person (me) might not know to look for.

I feel like it would also be nice to have the difficulty of swap listed next to each potential engine. Maybe on a 1-5 scale...
Obviously I would say a 98-02 LS Camaro/Firebird would be a 1 and maybe a random truck engine being a 5 with relation to accessory relocation and extra parts needed.

If there already exists something like this, please excuse me as I did a few searches, a link would be nice!

Primary reason for wanting this, is a lot of the pick and pull websites around me have part and vehicle searches, I'd like to see if the vehicle is there before having to go to the yard and physically go on wild goose hunts.

Let's see if we can help ol' Annihilate get the gumption to run to a yard to finally begin this project.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

The Wikipedia for LS engines has vehicle models

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Are you looking to stay gen 3 or gen 4? For the sake of this thread I am going to exclude obvious motors that won't be just laying around in your yard. Meaning, LS1, LS2, LS3, LS7 etc. Instead there are a few specific mills that had the most unique features about them and are still found in most yards.

For Gen 3 motors look for an L33, LY4 5.3 out of an envoy, saab, buick or GMC. It's the only 5.3 i'd consider over finding an LQ4 6.0.

• 24X motor
• Doesn't have DoD or AFM
• 243/799 LS6 style heads
• Aluminum blocks
• Might have come with gen 4 rods (can't remember for sure)

For Gen 4 motors, look for an LC9 or LMG 5.3.

• 58x motor
• LC9 are all aluminum with the TBSS intake manifolds
• LMG's were the same but with Iron blocks
• Engines had DoD and AFM.
• 243/799 heads

Those are the most unique 5.3's that will be around in the local yards. Nothing wrong with an LM7 as well, although lacks some of the benefits listed here.

As far as 6.0's you'll find LQ4's mostly which are an iron block LS1 in a nutshell (excluding the first year all iron 1999 LQ4's).

• 24X motors
• LS6 port style heads but with lazy chambers
• Shared a cam with the LS1
• No DoD or AFM

You may get lucky and find an LQ9 6.0 (Escalade, Hummer, Denali, SS Truck) which is the same as above except the following

• Higher compression pistons
• Gen 4 rods

To Qwk's point, the Wikipedia page on GM Vortec engines is pretty solid and breaks down which engine came in which platform. Each motor has it owns recipe which it doesn't always cover, and were the points I am trying to convey.

Annihilate

iTrader: (1)

Awesome reply, thanks for sharing this. Picking up my transmission this weekend, got a pretty good deal. Hoping to have the same luck with an engine.

Thanks again!

Annihilate

iTrader: (1)

Moving forward, I am looking for the best combo between fuel efficiency and power. My 305 running as funny as it does right now gets about 16mpg city. I'd really like to stay above that if possible. It seems most 6.0 or 6.2l engines are getting closer to 11 city in the applications they are made for.

If I go the 5.3 route, could I expect closer to 20mpg and also reasonably get close to around 500hp?

What about a 2010 6.2l out of a truck? What goes into a newer engine? Likely more complicated...

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

20mpg is a very obtainable goal with any LS swap. I get near 20 and have 500+ rwhp. If you are torn about engines, take some time and read about others builds. Even though any engine can be made to work, there are tiny nuances with each generation that require thought. Meaning, the later 6.2's out of trucks would be a great starting point. However, they have DoD and AFM and you'd likely want to delete that which incurs additional cost. Also, I wouldn't take a 5.3 that needs to be rebuilt, unless I was prepared to turn it into a 383 or at least an LS1 346. Your goals sound modest and I would recommend you look into the 6.0 LQ4/LQ9 mills. You'll spend less, have less retrofitting to do and can get your power and MPG goals.

Annihilate

iTrader: (1)

That sounds great, thanks for taking the time to help me break this down a little.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Guessing that's 20 mpg highway?
I interpreted the OP is wanting 20 mpg city.

Annihilate

iTrader: (1)

Ideally close to 20 city.

Anything around or above 16 would be great honestly lol.

Kingtal0n

I get 18mpg E10 gasoline average using LM7 free 5.3L Iron junkyard 200,000 miles engine with 4l80e transmission, 3.51:1 rear gear, 26.5" tall tire, 3000lbs vehicle, 580rwhp turbocharged.
My city is roughly 16, I drive however I want, very fast everywhere, every light is a 1/4 mile.
But if I drive it very slowly and carefully mileage does not seem to improve.
Highway 22 to 24mpg driving steady 65mph~ keep it under 2400rpm.
Using 15.2:1 air fuel ratio lean cruise to keep plugs clear from carbon, looking new, reduce deposits


I plan to swap to L33 5.3L Aluminum, shaves 120lbs from vehicle, and it have higher compression ratio, lower miles, I expect improve mileage 1.1mpg~
Raise tire height to 27" tall perhaps another 1/4 mpg gain available through rpm drop
Reduce vehicle weight elsewhere 110lbs~ should net 0.42mpg roughly

Looking for 25 to 26mpg highway economy eventually total, would make me happy as it will out perform the factory 4-cylinder economy at that point from 1996

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Approximately 1.1

Not 1
Not 1.2
But approximately 1.1

Kingtal0n

well, better than 1. but perhaps not quite 1.5mpg. So a breakpoint with confidence interval based on weight, power, drivetrain loss due to friction, I settled 95% over 1mpg and not sure about 1.5+ so I take the worst case scenario usually

until I get results... but I trouble to remove a perfectly good 5.3L iron engine for no other reason than 1mpg improvement... that is a lot of work and those engines have gone up in price

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

You'll like it, my car got noticeably more nimble with the aluminum engine.

Kingtal0n

I have noted quite an improvement even just carbon fiber hood 75lbs difference. Honestly I think the L33 is the best LS engine ever made for a swap because of its simplicity, 1000hp capability, and it weighs less than the original 4-cylinder from my vehicle- thats just nuts.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Correct. I get 0mpg in city..lol

Grant2k

I think my 305 could have gotten 16 city of it were on a tow truck that was managing 16 city. I was getting about 16 combined. Power:mpg was one of the factors that helped me justify a swap. I think 20 city is an awfully ambitious goal though. An LS is efficient but it's still a big gas V8. In a light car with 500hp I think 20 combined is still admirable and impressive.

My 2500hd with a 6.0 gets 11mpg all the time, loaded, empty, in town, highway, whatever. I've seen quite a bit worse when doing lot of towing. It can get 13 downhill with a tailwind.

Kingtal0n

Fuel economy has nothing to do with displacement.

Fuel economy is related to power. If a vehicle weighs 3000lbs then it takes the same amount of power to push it along 65mph no matter what engine is inside it.
V8 tend to have higher internal rotating friction loss compared to smaller displacement, but they also tend to cruise at lower RPM where the losses can be similar to a small displacement.

We can easily 6.2L 1000rwhp swap using a 6-speed with 0.50:1 overdrive 3.73 rear gears at 3200lbs achieve 28 to 30mpg highway

Grant2k

I'm just saying in practical real-world terms, you can expect a big V8 to use more fuel no matter what car it's in given the technology we use. I think that asking for 20 mpg city is very ambitious and like you said, could be expected of a more efficient engine.

Kingtal0n

Yeah its pretty funny to see a modern corvette put down 35mpg highway and 15mpg city. City is rough because the V8 makes a 'ton' of power from low RPM which consumes a bunch of fuel.... but this can be a driver error, not really the V8's fault. If you put a bolt under the gas pedal it could dramatically improve the city mileage for some vehicles. A key consideration is manifold pressure: at low rpm it only takes 30%~ throttle position to achieve WOT manifold pressure with even OEM throttle body. The CFM flow rate of a V8 near 100% VE (Max torque) at say 2000rpm to 4000rpm is not very high, for example a huge 7L V8 lets say making 500ft*lbs of torque at 3000rpm which is only (500*3000/5252) = 285bhp. A throttle body even smallish OEM design can flow 285horsepower with a 50%~ opening roughly. So you have the pedal halfway down and the V8 is essentially WOT and manifold pressure is close to atmospheric at 3000rpm- it will use alot of fuel. Now compare that with a 4-cylinder say 2.0L Engine using 50% throttle position still at max torque, the 2.0L is like 150ft*lbs of torque so only (150*3000/5252) = 85hp. The 4-cyl vehicle will use 17% of the fuel of the V8 engine at 50% throttle position for 3000rpm, even though both vehicles take the same power to move from a stoplight the driver of the V8 doesn't realize that his 50% pedal position is using several fold more fuel than a comparable 4-cylinder pedal position and moving his up to speed much more quickly obviously, which is an unnecessary waste in the grand scheme since they are both going to hit their brakes for the next stoplight anyways. Using brakes takes all the invested vehicle/parts kinetic energy and turns it into waste heat, so any fuel you use is going to be thrown away in the city during braking, meaning the conservation of kinetic energy and investment of energy to the drivetrain is a key consideration for economy. And the V8 also tends to use larger more robust rotating parts, like driveshaft, axles, transmission parts, differential stuff, even the wheels could be heavy, all of this adds up to rotating internal energy component investments which are thrown away once the brakes are used.

Bottom line, it isn't really the V8's fault. But getting around the issue is difficult and requires not only thoughtful engineering but also good driving habits.

Grant2k

But I only hear the V8 noises at low speeds! Need more gas pedal!

Kingtal0n

Yeah thats why I put a cutout on my car. Sometimes we need the noise.

Last year I finally got around to dialing in my injector timing, spray post exhaust valve closed. Part throttle picked up tremendous torque and the engine richened up in that range so I was also saving fuel.
The logs all show less duty cycle injector for cruise and part throttle in the city. I Was like hell yeah, fuel savings, lets see it at the pump.

On the gas pump however it seems I lost 10 to 15% economy. At first I was baffled but then I Realized- it was all the extra torque the engine was able to make, burning more fuel, because I couldn't keep my foot out of it.
Nothing quite like breaking the tires loose from a 25mph roll effortlessly I guess. Smiles > fuel savings

Arctic White 91 RS

FWIW...

My direct experience with various LS engines, a 305 TBI and gas mileage over the last 32 years...one of my friends averaged 2 to 4 mpg less in similar cars...he has a heavy right foot.

99 T/A stock/bolt on LS1 w/T56 & stock 3.42's
23.5 mpg normal weekly driving
32.5 mpg highway ie interstate
323 whp

99 T/A TEA heads, 224 cam, LS6 intake, mail order tuneLS1 w/T56 & 4.10 gear's
23.5 mpg* normal weekly driving
27.0 mpg highway ie interstate
418 whp

*Weekly mpg didnt change cause one could ride around in 5th gear or 6th where 4th or 5th were previously used due to new 4.10 gears.

99 T/A 416 LS, Magnum, Hawk's 8.8 w/4.10's
16 mpg normal weekly driving
21 mpg highway ie interstate
517 whp

236/244 cam with 13 degrees of overlap hurt gas mileage

02 Z28 LS1, bolt on's, 90mm TPIS LS6 intake, long tube 1 7/8 headers etc
4L60E & 2.73 gears
20 mpg normal weekly driving
27.5 mpg highway ie interstate
326 whp

91 RS Camaro resto-mod'd
383 LS1, TEA LS6 S2.5 heads, 229/229 cam, 90mm TPIS LS6 intake, long tube 1 7/8 headers, T56, Hawk's 8.8 w/4.10 gears
20 mpg normal weekly driving
25 mpg highway ie interstate
465 whp

91 RS Camaro before resto-mod
305 TBI, A4, 2.73's
24.5 mpg normal weekly driving
33 mpg highway ie interstate
~138 whp

The 305 TBI ruled on gas mileage! The 305 got +0.5 mpg while making nearly 200 whp less!