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LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
So...the boring part. I've been lingering on the site for a couple of years now. I must have read a million threads! Also, I may have exaggerated that slightly. At any rate, my story starts in 1991. I rode to school with a buddy who's parents purchased him an '86 Iroc, 5.7 TPI. I loved that car! There was something about it... I wanted one! Unfortunately, we weren't quite as well off and I ended up driving my step dad's 81 Ford truck..it was green..we called it booger! It was not quite as sexy as the Iroc. At any rate.. skip ahead 22 years (around August '13). Out of the blue one day, I decided I'm gonna get me an IROC! So.. the search began.. Well, likely comparable to many of you..checking CL, ebay, and the usual places. For months I did this and never felt like anything I looked at was worth the trouble. Then, searching ebay one day, I came across this '85, located just outside of Montgomery, AL. Being that I'm in Southern Indiana..I almost wrote it off, but it struck me. The listing had all the signs of RUN!! There was 2 pictures. Both were blurry and a bit far away. The seller had 2 total transactions. There was little to no description and then it hit me. It could be a crap car.. or it could be a good ole boy who doesn't like using computers and has a gem. The latter held to be true. Through several phone calls and pic sending I decide to go check it out. I tell him I'm bringing a trailer, seeing as it is about an 8 hour drive and didn't want to chance it. He says "no trailer needed.. I'd driver it to California today, if I needed to!". So, dad offers to drive down and we're off. We meet up with him the next morning and he's the nicest guy you'd ever meet! We had a cup of coffee and talked for 30 minutes before going out to the barn. We head out. One little ding on the hood, otherwise perfect! 68,000 miles, no rust, runs like a top!! I took it for a test drive and I knew this was it! We get back, talk for a bit, planned a fishing trip, and I was off to Indiana in MY new IROC. Here is a pic of the car a couple of days after I had it home. I pulled the stickers off the door because they were in rough shape..
I have to break here, friend on the way and I have steaks to marinade.. It gets better.. stay tuned! Thanks for looking,
Chris
Those deals are still out there! Well bought man. What year, options, etc? Was he the original owner? How much did she cost ya? I bought an 89 last summer, 350 auto with 69 000 miles that is absolutely mint for $9000.00 Cdn. What are your plans? Tell us more!
Those deals are still out there! Well bought man. What year, options, etc? Was he the original owner? How much did she cost ya? I bought an 89 last summer, 350 auto with 69 000 miles that is absolutely mint for $9000.00 Cdn. What are your plans? Tell us more!
So.. back to it. I would have posted more last eve, but Sailor Jerry prevented it.. lol
So.. history of the car. His buddy since high school bought the car new, then he sold it to another buddy a few years later and finally, this guy bought it from that buddy. They wanted to keep it in the family, so to speak. According to the seller, he doesn't think the t tops have ever been out of the car, and I believe it! I got the car for $4400.00....and I felt guilty as hell!!! I did use the RPO decoder, but can't find that print out right now, so I'll post a pic of the sticker..
At any rate, a buddy of mine runs a body shop and has a full shop at his house for his "toys" as well. So, the initial plan was to put it on the lift, do some tune ups, cleaning, bushings.. just maintenance related. He was surprised to see zero rust on the underbody. He agreed this car was in incredible condition. One thing led to another and we ended up pulling all of the suspension pieces to clean and paint. I should add that I run a restoration company (homes/commercial restoration from insurance related perils...fire, water, mold, etc) and we have a full contents cleaning system, to include a large ultrasonics tank. So, I ended up taking all the components to the shop and give the parts a ride in the cleaner with an acid based chemical and stripped the rust and debris from these parts. Then back to my buddy's where he put new bushings in and painted these parts..
So, we re-assemble, and all is well. Then, we decide to give it a new paint job...This is where the delay occurs. Now is where I'd like to talk about "The Friend Tax". We're all guilty of it, but essentially, this is where your buddy is always going to be your buddy, so every other project gets moved to the front of the line and your project gets done when other things slow down...when in fact, other things never slow down... So, finally, after sitting in his shop for a year, progress begins.. I nearly cried when I saw this, but he explained this is normal when a proper restoration is done. I got over it... lol
(btw.. I'm having issues sizing these photos importing from IMGUR)
So...because this process has taken so long, it has given me the opportunity to search for an LS1. Same process as searching for the car. One morning, I get into the office and pull up CL to see that a guy listed an 02 LS1 with 4l60e for $1500, pulled from his son's z28 that he wrecked the week before. SOLD, I'll take it. I get there to pick it up and he tells me to take all the stuff that went with the car.. fuel tank, alum drive shaft, harnesses, all of it.. SCORE! I didn't take any good photos of the engine prior to tearing it apart, but motor build photos coming...I did mention that I've never done anything more than change oil before, right?
Chris
On to the engine. I won't bore you with too many details, I'll just say that I've watched about 30 hours of youtube video and read more about LS1's than I ever cared to. Also, while I'm glad I built this engine, I can honestly say that the process doesn't thrill me and I likely won't be doing this again. A buddy was going to build it, but I thought I'd like to tackle it myself.. I assume it was for pride, glad I did..
I'm a bit of a freak about the details, so every screw, bolt, bracket, and clip was cleaned. I painted a few of the parts. Tried to make it look nice without getting carried away... In hindsight, I likely wouldn't have done so many bolts with red.. but I like it.
The motor was disassembled, block, heads, and crank to the machine shop. Head faces milled, crank got a polish only. I ultrasonically cleaned every part of the motor before reassembly. The only upgrades over stock were an LG motorsports cam kit, g5x3 cam with 114 LSA, comp dual springs, and comp rods. I had the tranny re-built/upgraded, and am in the process of finding a torque converter. LG recommends a 3200 stall with this application.
Ok.. so remember all of the work in the above photos on all of the suspension components??? All for not!! but, for good reason. As I read thread after thread here about tubular k members and the benefits, I decide to go that route. So, I get with Jason @ PA Racing and we talk about this for a bit. For those of you that haven't spoken with him, he is a very knowledgeable gent that actually takes the time to explain things and offers excellent advice. Well.. I end up deciding to do the k member, a arms, coil overs, adj panhard, adj lower control arms, trans x member, and subframe connectors.. (shhh.. my wife has no idea!!) Then.. bonus, I learn he is only about 100 miles away, so I'm gonna have to visit him soon! I won't be getting these items until next month, just before the planned swap. I'm hoping Pocket will build me a harness once he gets his website up and running. That's the one thing I don't have yet. I will be posting more as I make progress, but that brings you, more or less, up to speed.
I have several questions for those of you that have done this before. I'll post them on my next update as I'm still compiling them.. and the list is getting loooong!
Chris
A couple things I forgot to mention. I ordered the Racing Innovation Long tube headers and will be having a local exhaust shop build back from there.
Also, I realized that I got a bit stingy with photos on the last couple of posts. Here is a pic of the underside of the car prior to cleaning and then a couple other random pics..
Awesome thread. Always nice to see people do things properly. Seems like you might have had a rubber arm when being talked into doing the suspension haha. Keep the pics and updates coming!
Awesome thread. Always nice to see people do things properly. Seems like you might have had a rubber arm when being talked into doing the suspension haha. Keep the pics and updates coming!
Jason @ PA didn't try to talk me into anything, just answered questions. I sprung for the rest of the get up due to the fact that it was more affordable than I thought it would be and that there is no better time to do it! One of the things I've learned is that I should've bought stock in Brakleen prior to this build. I think I've gone through 5 cans thus far! lol
Chris
So, plz don't yell at me for asking these questions, for I know the answers are on the forum somewhere, but they are more of a "which is the best route" questions..
Fuel- I am using a 4th gen tank and pump unit. I have replaced the pump with an oem pump and I have replaced the fuel sensor unit with the 0-90 board from Herko on Ebay that fits the 97 Grand Prix. I've also ordered the c5 fuel filter with built in return/regulator and realized after the fact that that makes 2 regulators in the system. Does this hurt anything? I ordered all the parts based on Pocket's diagram without realizing that he was basing the diagram off of a 3rd gen tank. Would it be best to disable the regulator in the tank unit?
A/C- I'm keeping A/C and am wondering what is the best way to run it. Are most fabricating lines to connect to 3rd gen dryer/system? If so, AN or some other way?
Cruise control-What is the best route to go here? Re-use 3rd gen unit or use 4th gen unit. Mine is the one with traction control, so if 4th gen is the best route, gonna have to go to the JY and find a different unit.
Throttle cable- I know there are many threads, but what has been the best outcome? Has it been narrowed down to "the one".
Part of my problem is that I've read so many threads and done so many searches that it's starting to blend all together!!!
I have been checking your thread quite often. One of my reasons for going tube k member was so I didn't have to mess with the k member on the ls1 compressor. That being said, I think I want to make the ls1 one work. Thanks for the input and thanks for your build thread! Lots of great info.
Chris
A bit of progress this eve. Had a visit from the UPS man from Racing Innovations. Also, got the fuel pump in the tank, although, I wasn't crazy about how the o ring isn't center under the flange, and this after about 4 tries. I finally gave up and left it be. Got the Russell QD to AN fittings on and that's where I decided to call it an eve.
-Regarding the headers.. do most leave them a bit loose so they have a little play during the install?
So, Not much progress to report. I was able to spend about 3 hours with the car on Saturday. Buddy and I pulled the radiator and disconnected the majority of the harness under the engine bay. We weren't sure how far to go. I thought I had this sorted out in my brain, but when we got to the heater box, I wasn't sure if that got pulled, too, or what. My guess is that it all comes out and new harness will have all the provisions. I had decided to pull everything in the engine bay for a repaint, but as we got to looking around, we realized it just wasn't necessary. When we wiped through the dust, it looks brand new! Man, this car was well cared for. Also, radiator looks brand new! I ran it through the ultrasonic cleaning tank, just to ensure no blockages on the inside.
Motor is completely complete, with accessories and belt. Also, cleaned up the tranny and shot it with some Hi temp VHT aluminum paint. Was pretty tickled with the outcome.
Are the majority somehow re-using 3rd gen cruise? or using 4th gen module without the traction control? Is any wiring under the hood re-used if I get a new harness from Pocket? (c'mon Pocket! Get that website going! lol)
Also, anyone have any input on the fact that I have 2 fuel regulators in the system? C5 filter/regulator and 4th gen fuel pump regulator.. does this cause any issues? I'm thinking not, but wanted to know from someone with more experience.
Engine swap is scheduled for March 21st. I've recruited a couple of buddies from the local Chevy service department. Have them there should make this process smooth.. knock on wood!
Chris
As far as the harness goes. No Pockets harness plugs into the harness the comes from the driver side bulkhead. As far as the regulator, I wouldn't think so since they both are built to regulate to x psi but who knows iv been wrong before.
P.s. Pockets harness is really nice and a great deal for price and quality. He a great guy and easy to deal with. Also will answer any and all of your questions if need be.
As far as the harness goes. No Pockets harness plugs into the harness the comes from the driver side bulkhead. As far as the regulator, I wouldn't think so since they both are built to regulate to x psi but who knows iv been wrong before.
P.s. Pockets harness is really nice and a great deal for price and quality. He a great guy and easy to deal with. Also will answer any and all of your questions if need be.
I've heard great things about his harnesses. I just wish he'd get his dang website up and running so I can get this in the works! lol. From the looks of his thread about them, he's gonna have a long list of them to build when he gets back to it. Thanks for your input on the regulator, I was thinking the same thing. Also, I got all the connectors in his fuel diagram, but I was assuming he was using factory hard line on the in betweens, am I correct that the diagram is showing -6AN line everywhere? C'mon Pocket.. chime in! And give us an update on the website, sir!
Chris
3rd gen cruise is not compatible with the 4th gen VSS signal. Ive tried before and failed. LSx output is 4000ppm, 3rd gen cruise accepts 2000ppm. The 4th gen box is outlined in a thread I wrote "digital cruise on LTx/LSx"
You dont want two regulators in the system. If you've already got all the parts, then gut the insides out of the tank regulator leaving the C5 unit in place
For the harness, the engine bay harness should split in two at the C100. The lights half is untouched for the conversion. There is a small harness on the HVAC box that is also untouched. My wiring replaces every bit of the old engine harness and plugs into the bleeds offs like HVAC
Been through 3 web developers, all have committed and bailed. Im just as frustrated as anyone waiting
Thanks for the props, Pocket! Of all the reading I had done previously, I hadn't come across the cruise thread. Great Info! I'll be at the JY in the next few days looking for a cruise module with ALL the pins! Will the cruise harness portion be an option on the website with the other harness options?
On another note, I had read a few posts about FTI converters. I gave Greg a call...awesome fella to speak to! He has forgotten more about torque converters than I'll ever learn. At any rate, he's building mine in the next few days and should have it next week... one more thing off the long list of stuff to order and get done! Went with the SRLS0086 3600 stall. Should be fun!
I realize that all of the stock hardware will fit, in terms of installing the PA k member, a-arms, motor mount bushings, etc., but I'm wanting to replace all of the hardware with shiny, new stuff. I'm not finding these bolt sizes anywhere! I know Pocket has a nice list of bolt sizes, but the list doesn't include these items. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Chris
I realize that all of the stock hardware will fit, in terms of installing the PA k member, a-arms, motor mount bushings, etc., but I'm wanting to replace all of the hardware with shiny, new stuff. I'm not finding these bolt sizes anywhere! I know Pocket has a nice list of bolt sizes, but the list doesn't include these items. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Chris
You can try https://www.fastenal.com/ they have tons of stuff... That k-member, you went with coil over, instead of the std spring mount. Did the guy say it is a big difference in handling and suspension? Im thinking about doing the up grade too and am starting to kick around and do some research. Thanks! Sweet score on the ride. Nice to see such quality work! Keep posting!
You can try https://www.fastenal.com/ they have tons of stuff... That k-member, you went with coil over, instead of the std spring mount. Did the guy say it is a big difference in handling and suspension? Im thinking about doing the up grade too and am starting to kick around and do some research. Thanks! Sweet score on the ride. Nice to see such quality work! Keep posting!
-Dan
We have a Fastenal right down the road from my office, and we also have a local place called EBN that has about 10x the selection of Fastenal, so sourcing isn't the issue, just not finding the actual sizes online.
I've read that there is a decent amount of improvement with coil overs. Others will hopefully chime in and give the true advantages. I went that way, in part, for the improved handling, but mostly because of the adjustability in ride height and I think it looks better! Thanks for the kudos! We will be pulling the OE motor and trans next weekend and hopefully getting the rear suspension upgrades done and subframe connectors welded in. I just ordered a quart of the POR 15 that I've been reading about so much, and I'll shoot the bracing with that after it's installed. Hopefully more pics next Sunday!
Chris
I realize that all of the stock hardware will fit, in terms of installing the PA k member, a-arms, motor mount bushings, etc., but I'm wanting to replace all of the hardware with shiny, new stuff. I'm not finding these bolt sizes anywhere! I know Pocket has a nice list of bolt sizes, but the list doesn't include these items. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Chris
SPHON.NET HAS ALL THE HARDWARE YOU WOULD NEED FOR ANY SUSPENION UPGRADE
So, tomorrow is the first step toward the motor/trans swap. Hope to get the old 305 and 700r4 out tomorrow, get subframe connectors and all new rear suspension components installed. Hopefully I'll remember to get some pics and post Sunday. Speaking of which, I'll likely be listing some of the stock parts for sale. They are in immaculate condition, having been recently all ultrasonically cleaned (all rust, grease, soil removed), new bushings, all primed and painted. Rear LCA's, panhard bar, trans mount, front A arms, etc. I haven't decided what I should keep, "just in case". I'll put some of these parts up for sale next week. Got the new k member and a arms bolted up to the motor. A arms took a little persuasion, but wasn't bad at all. Motor mounts lined right up. I'll be installing new torque converter Sunday and hopefully bolting trans up to the motor.
Questions.. will the trans cooler lines from the 4l60e connect right up to the 3rd gen radiator? I was thinking I saw several posts where mods were made, but the ends looked to be the same...?
Also, regarding bolt sizes for the motor mount bushings and a arms, ordered the ARP engine mount bushing bolts from ebay and others at a local shop. Edit* Link I posted to engine mount bolts was the WRONG SIZE!
A arms: M12x1.75x95 and M12x1.75x95, both at least 10.9 grade. GM part numbers: 11502603 and 11500952
Well, I didn't get as far as I would've liked yesterday. I ended up not having as much time to work on the car due to a friend's kid's b day party (of course this wasn't my idea). At any rate, got the rear end done and front end completely tore apart. Also, everything is disconnected from the motor and trans and it is ready to come out. Should be another hour or so and it'll be ready to accept the new.
Got the subframe connectors bolted in the rear but I'm not super happy with how they contour along the pinch weld and frame rails. It seems like they are going to take some serious pressure from below to get them into place to get a couple of tack welds.. perhaps this is normal.. not sure. Back at it Tuesday night..
Chris
-Regarding the headers.. do most leave them a bit loose so they have a little play during the install?
Since you have the K-member out (assuming you haven't installed it since you posted the pic of it), install the engine and tranny on the K-member, then lower the car over them. When you do it that way, you can install the headers tight and never have to fuss with them again.
Since you have the K-member out (assuming you haven't installed it since you posted the pic of it), install the engine and tranny on the K-member, then lower the car over them. When you do it that way, you can install the headers tight and never have to fuss with them again.
That's my plan actually. The k member and a arms are now bolted up to the motor. My buddy, where the car is, actually has a cart that is about 3' tall that he built for doing this sorta thing. His plan is to do exactly what you just said. Sit the new motor and trans on the cart and lower the car to it. This way, we're not crawling around so much, we'll have decent clearance to get under the car and bolt everything up. Thanks for the info!
Chris
Well.. I got the motor and trans out Tuesday eve... was a tad tougher than I had thought it would be... lots of connections hidden on the back of the motor that we couldn't get to before the drop began. I went over yesterday and got the engine bay and trans tunnel all cleaned up. It looks factory new after cleaning, although I'll likely shoot it with POR 15 this weekend only because I'll be shooting the sub frame connectors and..why not.. I'll be right there! Also, got Mr. Walters steering shaft upgrade installed.. easiest portion of the project thus far! Had to spread the side that mounts to the pump a little, but that was to be expected. I'll try to post some photos this eve...
Meanwhile..after finding bits and pieces of information on torque specs, I ran across this site just a bit ago.. Looks to have everything you need to know in terms of motor and trans torque specs... http://www.ls1howto.com/index.php?category=1
Looking real good. I'm working on mine in my garage at this time. L98 is out, working on cleaning everything up. Lots of work but I'm certain it will be worth it. Just wish I had a lift, my Z is on 18" tall platforms I made by screwing 10 2X12X18 together on the rear and lifting the front end off the engine with a cherry picker. Works but took time to get there.
Thanks for the kudos, gents! I haven't gotten all that far since the last posting. I noticed that the previous owner had the brake warning plug unplugged from the proportioning valve, so I started digging. Tore the valve apart and found wore out o rings, and the rubber cup at the tension spring was shot. I went to a local brake shop to learn that there are NO valves out there with bubble flare fittings and it would require re-flaring all the lines to change it out. Instead, I found another similar valve and robbed the parts from it to put mine back together...we'll see if I did it right when it comes time to bleed them. While I was at it, I decided to pull the calipers and have the rear rotors turned. I found the piston in the right rear to be frozen! I dropped them all in the ultrasonic tank and cleared the rust and gunk, then, pulled them apart and painted the calipers. It turned out well. Then, off to the local parts store to order caliper rebuild kits...or so I thought!!! Finally, after 4 places, O'reilly's was able to get me some ordered up which are supposed to be here tomorrow morn...fingers crossed. Other than that, we got the subframe connectors welded in and blew a couple holes through the floor in the process.. nothing a little black RTV couldn't fix. Then, I got the old exhaust out and shot the underbody with POR after a good scrubbing... Well that's where I am, hoping to get back to the car Monday and get the motor/trans set, fuel tank swapped with LS type, get new flex fuel lines ran, and drivetrain back together.
I got a new prop valve from Amazon - ac delco direct replacement for front and rear disc brakes.
It is Ac-Delco 172-2005, I think its like 70 bucks shipped- and trust me, the security of a working prop valve is well worth it hahaha
Crap!!! No longer on Amazon.. not finding it anywhere else, either! Why is a solution with brakes on this particular car so difficult?? Well, I think I did fine with rebuilding mine, but if I find this booger.. I'll ****** it up! It does have the bubble flare fittings?
I hate those bubble flare fittings, when I converted my 92 with a 2002 10 bolt I had to adapt it from double flare to bubble at the rear tee so it would work out
PA Racing. he just didn't have time to powder coat it before I picked it up.
Yeah.. the whole double flare and bubble flare...seems like they could have picked what works and stick with it. Also, I realize the car is 30 yrs old, but I'm shocked that there are no direct replacements available...
with that new LS1 (looks frickin amazing) will you be upgrading to a higher capacity fuel tank? I know "Fuel Safe" makes one but that provides an extra 8 gallons or so but is God awful expensive. Man I wish i had the sack to do this same project to my IROC, don't have the know how (yet) or the resources.
Keep up the awesome work!!! *subscribed*
with that new LS1 (looks frickin amazing) will you be upgrading to a higher capacity fuel tank? I know "Fuel Safe" makes one but that provides an extra 8 gallons or so but is God awful expensive. Man I wish i had the sack to do this same project to my IROC, don't have the know how (yet) or the resources.
Keep up the awesome work!!! *subscribed*
Not upping the size, just swapping to 4th gen tank. Well, like many others on the forum, I had zero intention of getting this deep, it just happened! One thing led to the next, to the next...and now it has gone from $ to $$$$$. On the bright side, I'll have an awesome 3rd gen that should last for years to come.
Chris
Speaking of fuel, I plan to put the 4th gen tank in tonight and don't have the filler hose and neck for it. I thought this would be easy to track down today and I was WRONG. NLA from dealership and auto parts store. Anyone have any good advice for me here? I assume this would be next to impossible to deal with after it is installed.
OK, one question for ya. When I installed my LCA's I understood the heim joint (spherical bearing) was to be installed on the axle side, why did you install them the other way? The alignment shop I used said I had them installed correctly.
Speaking of fuel, I plan to put the 4th gen tank in tonight and don't have the filler hose and neck for it. I thought this would be easy to track down today and I was WRONG. NLA from dealership and auto parts store. Anyone have any good advice for me here? I assume this would be next to impossible to deal with after it is installed.
02-21-2015, 05:04 PM
